Claymore Tournament Archived (Completed) Fights Thread

Hoo boy. This is a tough one. Normally I would say Deneve all the way if there wasn't for one thing. Helen's fight with Isley. During that fight it was very clear what kind of potential Helen has. All she needs to do is get serious. Her arm stretching and drill sword abilities can work together and are very dangerous when they combine (if Helen managed to hit just a bit higher she could have killed Isley).

Deneve doesn't have such luck. Her abilities dual wielding and regeneration don't work so well together and are more useful against opponents like Duph.

I have to think about this a bit more.

These polls go too fast if you ask me. I won't have time to elaborate why I voted how I voted if such pace keeps up.

I voted on Ophelia.

- her combat stats, i.e. youki, strength and agility were at A level, better than Irene's and Galatea's and most probably the only reason she wasn't higher than Galatea was because of her mental instability

- with her rippling sword and intelligence she could easily overcome Galatea's manipulation (she instantly looked through all Clare's tricks and abilities and you don't have to be a genius to counter Galatea's trick, Riful and Clarice knew it instantly)

- if Galatea didn't release youki at the start (and we know she didn't like it) she would be at a disadvantage since Ophelia's basic stats were above Galatea's

- Ophelia, contrary to Galatea actually managed to do sth against single digit AB. Galatea couldn't even scratch Duff or Agatha whereas Ophelia killed awakened #6 and a single digit AB from Gonahl. Ryus will argue here that Hilda was holding back and Gonahl AB almost won. Well, this doesn't change the outcome. Galatea did nothing, Ophelia obliterated ABs. If you're interested in this discussion go to animesuki forum where me and Ryus were arguing as usual :). Maybe I will write sth more on this matter in the tournament discussion thread

- if Ophelia fought blinded Galatea she would have no chances of winning, especially against her rippling sword but also knowing devious Ophy she would kick a rock at her or lure her to some hole or abyss

I've written about it some more here: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpo...1&postcount=44

"These polls go too fast if you ask me. I won't have time to elaborate why I voted how I voted if such pace keeps up." -Goral


We have given three days to respond to each Fight Thread

(if, this is still too short, please post/discuss it on the Claymore Tournament Discussion Thread, as we want to hear your feedback of what you think, if the schedule of 3 days is too short for you guys/girls)

----------------------------------------------

Ophelia is better then Irene?! what... huh?!

that surprised me, lol! I'm incredulous, lol. You shocked me! laughs.

how/why do you say this?

I could toss a coin here too but I vote on Noel because in a sword fight agility is usually more of an advantage than brute strength.

OK, I can add something since you ask so nicely :).

- Noel managed to kill 3 youma at the same time, we've only seen Sophia kill 2 opponents at the same time

- Noel was assigned to attack Teresa via window which was more difficult task than piercing the floor

- after their first clash with Teresa Sophia was bleeding, Noel received no damage (that's a stretch, I know :P)

- she managed to cut Priscilla and Sophia didn't even do that (although it's debatable since Priscilla was right handed and she attacked left side)

could you try to elaborate a bit more, try to think of some more things to discuss about, as it's a bit short of a post. (I know there's not too much, as I had to use all that speculation in those entries, to give you guys/girls some stuff to think about consider). maybe you could give your thoughts on my speculations in the entries on the OP.

Spoiler: data book pictures show

http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/v...ena15Final.gifhttp://i680.photobucket.com/albums/v...E_SE02_013.jpghttp://i680.photobucket.com/albums/v...E_SE02_012.jpg

I'm only saying that overall she had better combat stats than Irene and Galatea. She had no chance of winning against Irene's awakened arm unless she improved her rippling sword or learned similar technique but she would most likely defeat Irene if Irene didn't have such move.

well, for me, the manga content of Irene seems to disagree with these stat pages.

As I've been looking again at Irene recently, from some discussions with other members, and been finding out a lot more about Irene then I realized, finding out that she's really quite powerful, more so then I thought before. But, this isn't about Irene, so I'll not bring it (the details, my findings/interpretations) up here.

I see Irene as being far more powerful than both Galatea and Ophelia, and thus Irene's not really too useful to determine this fight, between Galatea and Ophelia. We'd have to see how Galatea would have faired against Irene, but that obviously never happened for us in the manga.

I'll bet on Sophia, only because of her strength. She turn out to be much stronger than Noel, and she was not further behind in the agility item. I mean, Noel was an acrobat, but not much faster than Sophia, so, I believe force/strength would be the determining factor for this clash. Not to mention her rank, which must have followed this same line of thought.

So, I vote for Sophia.

I think Galasexy would be the winner. Not that the fight would be easy or anything like that, I imagine an epic battle between these two, but at the end, Galatea would prevail. Her ability to manipulate youki would be a great weapon against Ophelia. I know she's smart, fast and strong, but when Galatea uses her youki like she did fighting Dauf, she becomes one of the most powerful warriors, improving her skills and abilities to the extreme.

Actually, I think Galatea would win due to this skillful control of her own youki, and excellent control of all her powers, using them so as not to waste any movement, and also because of Ophelia's psychological stress, who seems to have no control over her emotions nor about her attitudes. In the end, Ophelia eventually would awaken, repeating the same scene with Clare, letting herself to die.

IMO Galatea's manipulation technique would be worthless against Ophelia. Galatea's version of manipulation is only good against stupid opponents. Those of average intelligence or above (and Ophelia certainly belongs to that group even though she was crazy) can see through her trick immediately like Riful, Agatha or Clarice did. It's a flashy technique but in combat it doesn't prove to be useful in a long term. But let me bring in some facts. End of volume 9, Riful's analysis (10sigh's translation):

Spoiler: Riful's analysis and Yagi's indirect explanation of Galatea's technique show

"Her specialty is the reading of youma energies down to their most miniscule details. Thus she can control her opponent's movement by aligning her own youma energy with this. But even if I say control, it's not quite as awesome as it sounds. It only works by attacking the enemy in unguarded moments, exploiting weak points in his consciousness and tampering with it, using just a little of her own youma energy. That means even if she can manipulate the enemy's movement, stopping the attack itself is nearly impossible. Even more so if he is more powerful. That's why it's necessary to confuse him as a first step. While the enemy is negligent and unfocused, she shows him many little tricks and thus creates doubt. This is where my part comes in. An attack executed with doubts about whether it will hit or not is naturally far from ones full potential. That's why when a stronger opponent launches an attack with full force and no doubts whatsoever, even if it looks the same, there is absolutely nothing she can do."

And when did Ophelia show signs of stress or lack of focus during combat? Never (we're talking about her in Claymore form of course, after awakening everything changes, I hope I don't have to explain it). Even when her neck was snapped she was relatively calm and did her job without fail. If you're referring to her encounter with Irene - she lost it after her fight but that's because she was half-dead. Against QS she had no time to analyze it (and even if she did she had nothing to counter it). The problem is Galatea doesn't have anything that could make Ophelia stun so that her manipulation could work. She's not Duff.

BTW, notice that against Duff Galatea couldn't run using this technique (unless she was retarded and preferred to wait for Riful to arrive or Duff blocking the exit). Most probably it was needed for her trick to work, by walking casually and showing no signs of anxiety she made Duff further doubt his own abilities. It was necessary because with every use the chance of discovering the trick increases and even Duff would overcome it at some point. In his case he probably wouldn't understand it but become so pissed that he would go all out and further manipulation would be impossible because there would be no "unguarded moments" when the youki would flow with maximum efficiency.

I stand by what I said. Galatea's youki release is the largest/strongest among the warriors of her generation, and by increasing her youma energy, is explicit that her power increases and she can control opponents with lesser power, and said that, it's also explicit that her youki is greater than Ophelia's, so she could/should subdue her.

Ophelia has a mania for games and gets distracted very easily, as happened several times with Clare, where she took a while to notice #47 true intentions. With Galatea would be no different, it'd take only a moment for Galatea with her youki released at maximum, to use her technique to confuse her opponent and to cut Ophelia's head.

Also, Ophelia was very conscious when she fought with Irene, but wheb her technique was blocked she lost focus and was humiliated, and if Galatea defends her first blows she might get distracted and then fall on Galatea's ability.

And to end my arguments, as I don't have much time to discuss, this is a hypothetical fight where each one thinks what he/she want and gives his/her opinion about what could/should happens. To me, Galatea would prevail by what I said, for you, Ophelia and there's nothing we can do about it, lol.

Well, one of the reasons of this game is discussing the fight and defending votes so here it goes.

Firstly, Galatea's youki release isn't the largest/strongest among warriors of her generation, her power increase is. So at 0% youki release she might be slower and weaker than Clarice but she would become stronger than her if both of them released 10% of their youki, and much more stronger if they released 50%. But it doesn't mean she would be stronger than Ophelia overall if both of them went all out. Plus Ophelia would have advantage at the beginning by having better basic stats. Secondly, you're wrong by saying that she can manipulate any opponent as long as she's stronger (and we don't know whether she's stronger than Ophelia). Riful only emphasized that it's more difficult with stronger opponents, she didn't say it's impossible for weaker ones. And we know that it's not necessary thanks to turtle AB who was leagues above Galatea. Volume 10 p. 28, Clare's words: "You can't even compare Galatea's version to it", however Clare and Undine managed to overcome it. You're not suggesting here they were stronger than this AB, are you?

As for Ophelia playing games - she did that with Clare and Raki only who were leagues below her. With stronger opponents she didn't play but wanted to kill them ASAP. In addition, Galatea wouldn't be able to exploit Ophelia's weaknesses easily for a simple reason - Ophelia would mess with Galatea also. If Galatea tried to go all out (i.e. to the point of being a hair's breadth from reaching her limit) Ophelia would exploit it and further strain Galatea. Plus as I've stated several times already her rippling sword would really mess up with Galatea's plans. In fact it's the worst possible technique against youki sensors/manipulators (since it goes in random directions and Galatea's manipulation doesn't stop the attack itself).

As for Irene vs. Ophelia, Galatea wouldn't stand a chance against her either. She would even have lesser chance than Ophelia because she wasn't as agile as her and probably wouldn't even survive Irene's attack (the fact alone Ophelia survived such attack even though she was an offensive warrior tells us what a monster she was). It would end up especially bad if she foolishly attacked cloaked Irene. She wouldn't even see Irene's attack coming and even if she did she wouldn't be fast enough to react since she couldn't even dodge Duff's pole.

Below you will find confirmation that 10sigh's translation is more accurate than Viz's version:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gernot

妖力解放した時の力の上昇率は
４７人中一番と言われていてな

上昇 【じょうしょう】 (n,vs,adj-no) rising; ascending; climbing
率 【りつ】 (n,n-suf) rate; ratio; proportion; percentage

So, something like:
I am told / It is said that the rate of increase of power when I release youriki is the highest / greatest among the 47.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cyclone

You know what I say generally - when there's a discrepency, generally trust the 10sigh version (not to mention, that vol 8 & 9 are among the worst translated volumes Viz has done in all of Claymore).

She says:
妖力解放した時の力の上昇率は
４７人中一番と言われていてな。。。

The rate of increase of power during my youriki(youma power) release is
said to be #1 among us/the 47.

---

If you don't believe them use transliterated text to check out kanji yourself by uisg google translator or jisho.org. You will find that "rate or power" is used here.

Actually, I have the official translated version and it's said that her released youki is the biggest among all the 47 warriors, vol.09 p.26. Youki released and release of youki isn't the same? That doesn't increase their strength or any atributes? When a warrior releases youki doesn't she get any stronger? If not, then our interpretation is just different, as for the translations we're reading.

And what Riful said about Galatea's technique is that it's practically impossible to have full control over the opponent's movements, especially if he is much stronger than her. Then, considering that Galatea's youki is bigger than Ophelia – as was implied in vol.09 p.26 - she could/should be able to change the direction of Ophelia's blows.

Not to mention that Galatea is a defensive warrior and heals fast, she would also be capable of evading Ophelia because she not only reads youki, but also emotions and feelings, then it would not be difficult for Galatea to distract Ophelia's mind.

Against Dauf/Riful, Galatea was extremely fast to prevent Clares's awakening for several times, as well to save her. She moved faster and faster to create an opportunity so Clare could go and save Jean. It shows that #3 isn't that far behind from #4 in terms of battle, in fact her digit is higher, which also implies a greater physical/mental ability/strength. Galatea was able to pierce Dauf's skin, which also demonstrates great physical strength; she was able to use her youki at maximum and still didn't get even close to awaken, even after she got her entire body pretty injuried and after a long mental stress, in a situation far worse than Ophelia's when she awakened.

And which "official" translation would that be? Claymore isn't published in Croatia and if you mean Viz's version then you're wrong. Galatea doesn't say: "But when released, the level of my youma power is the greatest of all the forty-seven", she says (most accurate and literal, 10sigh's translation): "I am told that the factor by which my power increases when I release is the biggest out of all us 47 Claymores." This has been confirmed by several people fluent in Japanese and you can ask gernot if you don't believe me. But to be honest, you don't need to know Japanese to know that the first translation is wrong

Moderator message by: HegemonKhan

by using logic:

Viz's translation explicitly states that Galatea has greater youki than Alicia or Beth and yet she's not #1...

Moderator message by: HegemonKhan

see, this doesn't make sense logically

Anyway, I recommend you read this post.

For future reference - Viz's translations are very inaccurate. That's the main reason I haven't imported Claymore yet (and unfortunately I don't know Italian nor French).

As for Riful, you're saying here that since Galatea can't fully control stronger opponent's movements then she could/should be able to change the direction of Ophelia's blows if we assumed that she was stronger than her. This is illogical. It doesn't result from it. I can't ride a tank, does it automatically mean I can ride a car?
Anyway, at no point Riful said that weaker opponents can't defend against this technique. In fact she said the opposite: "That means even if she can manipulate the enemy's movement, stopping the attack itself is nearly impossible. Even more so if he is more powerful." "Even if she can" doesn't mean "she surely can manipulate weaker opponents" and "even more so" tells us only that it's especially difficult against stronger opponents. And if you're referring to the last statement I've quoted in my previous post she still doesn't say that weaker opponents can't defend against her.
You've also ignored the fact that someone who had more powerful version of youki manipulation (and was more powerful than Galatea in her Claymore form) couldn't succeed against Clare and Undine who surely were weaker than him. You're just blindly going with your preferences.

Regarding Galatea being a defensive warrior - somehow it didn't help her when she was fighting Agatha and lost her arm. She didn't regenerate it during the fight like Deneve did and certainly she wouldn't be able to regenerate it quickly enough for Ophelia to not react.

As for Galatea being fast, she was faster than Duff but not faster than him burping the spikes/poles. She couldn't dodge his spike even though she knew it was coming (I think you will agree with me that she was a great youki sensor hence she would see it coming). As for being able to injure him notice that she only managed to penetrate his weak points - joints and corner of his mouth. She couldn't however penetrate his armor and overall didn't do much damage.

Poll/Voting Results:

Total Votes: 12
Dietrich: 9 = 75.00%
Nina: 3 = 25.00%
Winner: Dietrich