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Hi HK:
Just wanted to get your thoughts on how you ranked the warriors, specifically in regards to Miria. You have Deneve ranked above Miria in terms of ability. I would have ranked Clare and Miria in the top tier (as long as we're talking fighting ability). Even Miata remarked that Clare and Miria had far exceeded the remaining ghosts. Do you think that Deneve exceeded her former captain, when the leadership role was thrust upon her?
ws
Deneve:
At the Agatha Battle, you're definately right, Miria+Clare were singled out as the obvious two strongest of the Ghosts by Miata*
*Miata labels "Very Strong" to: Clare, Miria, and Galatea too (it's in a previous chapter on the last pages, showing Clarice+Miata arriving at the Rabona city walls)
*Miata labels "Strong" to: Deneve, Helen, Cynthia, Tabatha, and Yuma.
However, Deneve+Helen have taken on Isley, the AFs, the hellcats, Priscilla, and the Destroyer, which seems to have boosted their power levels tremendously as if they were saiyans (Dragon Ball series reference), lol.
I particularly take note of Deneve's performance in the above with Priscilla and the Destroyer was amazing. She also rescued Helen from being killed by the AF back in the town in Mucha where they were battling Isley, not to mention her and Helen's performance against Isley as well.
I also particularly focus on Deneve being able to (censored) stop the AB with her outstretched hand!!!!, as seen in the Rabona "Seige" Battle (the counter-attack of the Org by the NYs and ABs due to Miria's attack on the Org HQs). That's some serious POWER by Deneve! Deneve is now amongst the elite group of raw brute strength of power levels: Teresa, Miata, Rafaela, and (Awakened) Priscilla.
So, due to Deneve's recent showcase of extreme power and performance against the very top of the top opponents, I seriously think she can very well be tied with Clare+Miria now, or even surpass them, for that matter. I haven't seen Clare nor Miria (censored) stopping an AB with their bare hand!
Helen:
She too has improved along with Deneve (see the Deneve paragraph above), though Deneve still outclasses Helen (excluding Helen's destructive power via her Extendable Drill Sword).
Miria:
Yes, she IS powerful as the "narrative Claymore" awed about, but I'm sure the Org Claymores would feel that same great immense power coming from at least any of the 4 HAs, if not the 3 non-HA Ghosts as well.
Yes, Miria took on the TATs, but she said they could pwn her with more training (meaning they were more powerful than her, as they Awaken-lol, but they hadn't learned how to use that greater power that they had), and that the ONLY thing that was keeping Miria alive against them was her Phantom Step (but she was having the same issue as she had with Rigardo). Yes, due to them still being in training, in that engagement Miria could have easily killed them, but Miria flat out tells us that they're still superior to her. So Miria's powerful, but not more powerful than the TATs.
The question isn't how powerful Miria is, as she is powerful, but how powerful is she compared to the other 3 HAs.
I do have a biased towards Miria:
I do believe she is indeed very powerful, but the (censored) manga, never shows us Miria's power, sighs. All we see is her speed "Mirage Step" or her Phantom Step. But we hardly get any other indicator of her power level, or what makes her being labeled as so powerful.
This greatly annoys me, not being shown Miria's power level (as there has to be more to it than just mere speed advantage), so I take out my frustration by being much more sceptical and harsh of Miria, compared to most people who are so enamored with her.
Show me something powerful about her, besides her speed!, show me her pwning some powerful AB or something, argh! Show me her having the strength to slice ABs with ease, something besides mentioning her speed advantage, grrr!
All the other 3 HAs have been shown, their power levels, pwning opponents or performing amazingly well enough considering some of their opponents... but not Miria... argh!
Clare's opponents: Ophelia, Awakened Ophelia, Dauf, Riful, Rigardo, Full Power (including speed) Rigardo (but it's Partial Awakened Clare facing him), female AB in Lacroa, Dauf, "Rafaela"/Destroyer, hellcats, and Priscilla (Claymore Clare).
-I'm ignoring Agatha, Partially Awakened Clare "against" Priscilla, and any other such corrupted or non-helpful battles
Deneve's and Helen's opponents: Rigardo, Isley, AFs, hellcats, Priscilla, Destroyer, Rabona AB(s), Tabatha (Deneve only, lol), and male Awakeneds in recent chapters
and then there's Miria's "immense legion" (sarcasm) of opponents: Rigardo, the Org Claymores (why am I even mentioning them-lol), and the TATs
-ya, that's a lot of help, manga! ARGH!
I want to believe in Miria too, but the manga hasn't given me much to use to believe in her, sighs... :(
Hello :)
But something is not right here... In this ranking You take Claymores which are partially awaken to "normal" so this should be split on 2 rankings then compared to each other. I think that Miata could be much stronger, when She someday achieve half awakened state, and from opposite We can not even compare Ghosts with Their Yoki suppression to any other ranked Claymores. So it is a point to figure out some notes for abilities, battle experience, power level of Yoki and current condition. Score from 0 to 10
For example Clare, former No. 47,
physical abilities 6
Yoki abilities 8
battle experiences 8
Yoki power lvl 8
Condition (non awaken 0, half awaken 5, fully awaken 10) 5 or 10
summary 35 or 40 points.
Dietrich current No. 8,
physical abilities 7
Yoki abilities 7
battle experiences 7
Yoki power lvl 6 (I'm guessing! Any other conceptions?)
Condition (non awaken 0, half awaken 5, fully awaken 10) 0 or 5
summary 32 or 37 points.
And as it is clearly seen, condition makes some difference between ranks. That current number 8 is weaker then former 47.
Or maybe it is just My point of view, that Ghosts can not be ranked to other Claymores. Maybe non awakened ones like Cynthia, Tabatha, and Yuma yes, but Helen, Deneve, Miria and maybe Clare are out of ranking to anybody. (Clare was always treaded like a weakest one, even with Her Yoki perception ability against Dietrich... I could be a quite interesting fight :) )
And this characteristic to judge could be even more: speed, healing abilities, special tactics, Yoki perception etc. and for more, every Claymore is individual in some specialties so it is really make Me already a headache :P
Have a nice evening :)
Perhaps i didn't explain the question of this thread very well.:amuseQuote:
Originally Posted by colonywars
The point of the exercise, is step into the role of head of the organization Hypothetically, if you were in charge of the organization, and all the current claymores were under your command, how would you rank them? That's the question i want people to ask themselves.
The reason making multiple lists doesn't really work is that that's not the way the organization in claymore does it and doing it some other way would kind of defeat the purpose.
The half-awakened ones(Mira, Clare, Deneve, and Helen) may be strong but they are still Claymores. And figuring out where you would put them relative to the others is part of the fun of it.:tem
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I'm not really looking for an accurate 1-10 ranking here. I'm looking to find out where you would rank them if you were the head of the organization and it was your call.
I think it gives people a chance to think about the Claymores in a way they might not otherwise. Plus, it's fun. And i don't think there is really any wrong answer.
Hello :)
Aha :) ok :D
Deneve and Helen as 1st pair this two likes to work with each other and team work is always better than single one :) Miria with Anastasia & Dietrich as backup, Galatea as Yoki Reader and Tabatha with Yuma as medic backup or last line of defense :) And I think, that this "platoon" should be enough to deal with almost all threads. Generally Claymore always had bad attitude when comes to ranks, so making them work as a team over My commend :p should solve this problem :D
Still question is... Is this enough to eliminate Priscilla... Ech :)
Have a good night :)
I've doing many such rankings as these for quite a while (as notes on my computer... if anyone's interested I could post them, lol, and you can see how I've changed my rankings over time, lol), as I've always been personally interested in this topic myself, hehe.
so, the posts of rankings I've done on this thread, have been quick and brief (sorry colonywars, I'm aware of what you're saying but I was just being quick-brief in my rankings in previous posts above), but I've done others going into more depth and complexity:
not only have do I separate/rank Claymore vs HA vs Ghost vs HA+Ghost, but I also separate/rank non-Awakened vs Awakened as well.
So, for example, I have Clare placed in multiple spots in just a single ranking list of mine, at her different progressions in the manga and/or her different forms (Human -> Trainee - Claymore -> HA -> Ghost HA -> Partial Awakened HA -> Partial Awakened Ghost HA -> Full Awakening).
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Maybe, I'll just post all my ranking lists regardless of if anyone's interested or not lol, anyways, now that I'm getting interested in this, lol.
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we can rank Ghosts/HAs/Ghost+HAs to Claymores to Awakeneds, we just need to remember or be aware of the differences, lol, that they aren't fair comparisons (obviously), but they do have power levels which we can thus rank them, albiet unfairly again :D
but than we got Claymore Teresa who still outpowers everyone, despite only being a Claymore, hehe :D
So even if a character being ranked, is at a disadvantage with the "type" that they are, they could still be more powerful than a more powerful "type" of character.
Rigardo was a full Awakened (a superior/more powerful "type") yet the merely Partially Awakened (a inferior/less powerful "type") Clare still pwned Rigardo anyways.
Hello :)
HegemonKhan I see that You are really good in statistic :D But making that kind of ranking it is impossible to pleased everybody, and there always be somethings to argue, why 5 not 7 or why this ability is better than the others. When I give an example and then I realized how much attributes must be taken under debate, I got a headache :p
And the point is what jamie95403 wrote:
There always be somebody better, there always be situations, that the most powerful die stupidly by bravery or by surprise. So even the best of the best (another thing to argue?) like My chosen "platoon" :p can occur enemy with they can not handle.Quote:
I think this ranking of warriors is reasonable, but the one caveat I'd have is how useful it would be in predicting the outcome of conflicts. I read years ago a book whose title escapes me, but it was by an expert's expert in the martial arts, with all the black belts in this and that.
He traveled round the world, meeting and testing the skill of the best of the best of various fighting styles. The author would actually fight the other experts to test their skills.
Ironically, the author's worst defeat was inflicted by an elderly gentleman in South Africa. This South African had no special talent or certificates or even anything even resembling a martial art or skill. He was the physically the weakest of all the martial "experts" the author tested. How was the author defeated? He was "surprised." The author concluded that the fight does not necessarily go to the strongest, the most skilled, the most disciplined, or the ones others rank and certified the best.
Victory often goes to the most unpredictable. In short, someone like Clare. The author's mistake with the South African gentleman was similar to the one that Rigardo made in Pieta. So in compiling a list, who would an opponent be most surprised by?
Have a nice day :)
The only reason why Deneve+Helen came out alive on this one was only because Isley had fought with the AE. Isley was weak and was recovering.Quote:
Originally Posted by HegemonKhan
With Priscilla, they were mostly running if I recall. LOL!
I think Miria was refering to their abilities to transform into Awakening and revert. She mention that they just needed more training to be as strong as Alicia and Beth. Although they did stress her more because Miria did not want to kill them instead of trying to disable them instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by HegemonKhan
This can be argue just like Teresa and Priscilla.
Yes its true that we havent seen Miria cutting down awakened ones. All we know is that her speed and precision is great but hey as I re-read the chapter when she fought those two in her mind was "should I kill them?" meaning she has the ability to do so. And according to her(chp. 107 pg. 15) and Rubel(chp. 106 pg.22) they were far from equal meaning she can easily kill Alicia and Beth. It was only because she wanted to subdue them thats why she was overpowered.
Deneve's performance on Isley and Priscilla was great but do you really think that Miria could not perform greater than their performance? I dont really think so.
(sorry bout Cynthia being #13)
Moderator message by: HegemonKhanIt's no big deal, i was just letting you know if you didn't know, as maybe you just typo'ed, hitting the 3 instead of 4 as well
@zushiko
Yes, Miria could have probably killed one of the shrimp twins (one, because once she would do it the other would probably awaken making it much harder for Miria) but that doesn't mean she would be able to take down Alicia or Beth. Miria was scared shitless of Riful (and her power was exactly the same as she fought twins) and didn't even think of fighting her. For the same reason she didn't attack the organization until Alicia and Beth left the HQ. And she had problems with the twins in training. If she went for the head from the start she would probably be able to use their inexperience to her advantage and kill one of them but in a fight where killing them was not an option she was exhausting herself. Eventually she would leak youki by using her "youki-less phantom" too many times.
Shrimp-twins weren't at 100% like Alicia and Beth, they still had room to grow (and still have). We don't know how much faster and stronger they will eventually become but I bet that Miria wouldn't win even against one of them if they were completed. We also don't really know whether what Miria said was really true or maybe it was her confidence only. If cutting their heads was so easy and she didn't want to kill them why didn't she cut off their arms and incapacitate them? Cutting both of their heads compared to cutting their dominant hands - I don't see how the first option was easier to put into motion.
The way I see it Miria could have killed one of the twins but the other would awaken or she could have died. The reason twins were grateful to her was that they knew she could have killed one of them but didn't. /IMO
Goral,
thanks for the informative analysis, and do you any interest in partaking in this thread, in ranking the Claymores? I'm sure Jamie and Colonywars, and I certainly, would be interested, in a post ranking the Claymores from you, hehe. (we can use more participation/posts by more members!) :D
Where'd you rank Miria than? Do you think (NON-partially Awakened) Clare could take on the TATs (Trainee Awakening Twins)? Partially Awakened Clare? Deneve? Helen? And etc..
Ghosts compared with Organization
Whatever techniques the Org uses to measure performance levels of warriors, it isn't available (at least to me :-). Thus we can only do rough comparisons. Where to start?
With the survivors of the Northern Campaign. And why they survived at all.
Three factors
There appears at least three major factors the survivors have in common. Not all warriors share all three, but having at least one may have contributed to their survival:
1. Half-awakened: the four members of the original Pablo hunting party: Miria (No. 6), Deneuve (No. 15), Helen (No. 22) and Clare (No. 47). The extra power could have played a role in their survival. Even Jean (No. 9), also half-awakened, may have survived but for her sacrifice to Clare (despite Jean's “fatal” wound).
2. Defensive type warrior: Cynthia (No. 14), Deneuve (No. 15), Tabitha (No. 31---unconfirmed Defensive type) and Uma (No. 40). Here we have warriors adept at healing themselves. If Tabitha proves to be a Defensive type, then over half the Ghosts are Defensive.
3. Miria's team: Tabitha and Uma. Of Miria's team at Pieta, only Queenie didn't survive. The Data Book rates Miria's leadership abilities at A+, higher than any of the other team leaders (Veronica unknown). Since we're dealing with each warrior's individual power level, Miria's extraordinary leadership ability might cloud our picture a bit---where do we separate the two? (but that's another discussion)
Rating the Ghosts
Of the seven Ghosts, Cynthia, Tabitha and Uma are likely unawakened. If true, we could place the half-awakened warriors above these three in power.
Of the half-awakened, how to rate them? We might remember Miria's statement to Clare in Scene 67, when after the sword-match, she says Clare can handle any of the current single-digits (though presumedly not Alicia and Beth, who are in a special category of their own).
Do we have enough information to compare Miria, Deneuve, Helen and Clare to one another? Even if we don't, as a group they must be more powerful than the unawakened Ghosts. It's possible that Deneuve and Helen can handle the current generation single-digits No. 3 through 9.
That leaves us with Cynthia, Tabitha and Uma, who increased their power during the 7-year Time-skip. We have no objective measurements of their power, but we might look at Uma's own self-assessment.
Ghosts vs Org
In Scene 83, Clare, Cynthia and Uma face both an Awakened Being and an Org search party. Clare, who may know Uma's true abilities, trusted her enough to take on alone the three Claymore warriors, including the current No. 14.
After rendering unconscious the three warriors, Uma is astonished, believing herself the weakest Ghost. Whether this is true or not, let's take Uma's word for it for now.
If No. 14 was the strongest warrior of the Org search party, then the other two were higher double-digits. But even so, Uma was originally No. 40 before the time-skip. How strong is Uma now? At least as strong as the former No. 13, Veronica? Or stronger?
Logically, the power level of any given warrior number isn't necessarily constant from generation to generation. But even here, it's not impossible our “weakest” Ghost could be within the power range of the higher single-digits.
We could further speculate that Cynthia and Tabitha's power levels, during the time-skip, have also correspondingly increased. Possibly to the lower single-digit range.
So we have three hypothetical power levels within the Ghosts:
1. Half-awakened (likely well above all the current single-digits, except the Black Ones)
2. Cynthia and Tabitha (high to low single-digit range)
3. Uma (higher single-digit to lower double-digit range)
Conclusion
1. Miria, Deneuve, Helen and Clare should be able to defeat all single-digits, as well as the "Tween Twins" of Scene 106-107 (based on Miria's fight with them). The Black Ones would likely defeat each singly or even as a group. Deneuve being a Defensive type may increase her chances of survival over the others.
2. Cynthia and Tabitha may have better than an even chance against most, if not all, the single-digits (excepting the Black Ones). Cynthia and Tab might be able hold their own against the Tween Twins in a desperate situation. Being Defensive types, their chances of survival may be increased.
3. Uma could probably handle all double-digits, and perhaps the higher single-digits. Being a Defensive type, her chances of survival may be increased.
Caveat: various unpredictability factors may render all the above null and void.
All of the above is speculation only!
Hello :)
jamie95403 You pointed one very important thing in Your thread:
Ghosts had 7 years to training with full Yoki suppression, that is why they can only develop and strengthen "physical base" of their abilities.Quote:
Logically, the power level of any given warrior number isn't necessarily constant from generation to generation. But even here, it's not impossible our “weakest” Ghost could be within the power range of the higher single-digits.
We could further speculate that Cynthia and Tabitha's power levels, during the time-skip, have also correspondingly increased. Possibly to the lower single-digit range.
I think, that the power level of Yoki even suppressed depends from this "physical base". Maybe Yoki can be accumulated and body works like a capacitor? Developing and training body, pushing it over natural limitations can increase level of Yoki even suppressed. Just capacity has increase so the power also.
Then developing this base could strengthen Yoki, and We see Deneve releasing Her power to regenerate arm after non using it for so long, it was like healing almost on Priscilla level. Clare won against Miria with technique She develop when She can not use Yoki. I think that Her Quick Sword also was much better because Her overall base was better.
Everybody, who training knows, that all abilities comes one from another. Speed against power, dexterity against power, stamina against speed. More power can overweight muscles that reduce speed and dexterity, but can increase stamina. Only preserving balance between this parameters brings the best effect of training. All Ghosts have really hard time, to stay alive and to training, so every which one increase their basis that is why there are so strong. And because there was differences between power levels, this differences remain but all pushed power limit higher. So in presence even former No. 40 is better than present No. 14.
I think also that this former No. 40 could be "in normal circumstances" already higher double digit or lower single digit. Just like normally Claymore gets their promotion.
Remember Irene / Ilene when She told to Noel, that Teresa's quick sword, speed and power are not so powerful as Theirs, but when fighting with Priscilla Teresa must count only on Her "physical base" of this technique She won. Teresa was far much better trained from Priscilla on Her basic speed and power.
Have a nice evening :)
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Spoiler: Off-topic = Teresa show
Spoiler: off-topic = Tabatha show
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Note: if you want to discuss this below, don't do it here in this thread, as it's off-topic, unless you're using to explain your ranking choices.
this thread might prove useful in understanding the Ghosts, HAs, and Clare to help in deciding how to rank them compared to the normal Claymores:
(it's a lot of reading though, to find all the relevant points to this thread in it as most of it is on the topic of whether Teresa's power is from being a HA or not, hehe)
http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63801
taken from this thread I point out/theorize that:
http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpo...9&postcount=15
"Being a HA allows a Claymore to have some of the power level and abilities of an Awakened. Also, less yoki is used for abilities and/or sword techniques than before, meaning they can do those abilities and/or sword techniques at lower YR levels, more times, and/or for a longer duration. Lastly, HAs are able to resist Awakening. They can release 80% yoki and not undergo Awakening. It's possible that it is as if the Awakening is raised to 90% for them. This explains the HAs' power"
-HK
This - less yoki is used for abilities and/or sword techniques than before, meaning they can do those abilities and/or sword techniques at lower YR levels, more times, and/or for a longer duration - applies to Ghosts as well.
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P.S.
if you're interested in my theory on the power of the human mind within Claymore, let me know, and I can explain it in more/full detail (hopefully I have easy to find notes on it, lol).
These are the levels of the claymores in my opinion:
1- Miria/Clare
2- Deneve/Helen "She, being a little less than Deneve, she could be on the next level".
3- Galatea/Helen
4- Miata/Cyntia "After watching his recent performances, she could be at the next level".
5- Cynthia
6- Renne
7- Thabita/Audrey "This claymore I don't know really where to put her. "
8- Diedrith/Anastasia "Removing the flight technique, she does not seem very strong".
9- Yuma
10-Rachel "Despite its strength, she is very slow".
On the twins, I don't know what level will be, but 'guess will be between level 2 or 3.