Re: Who(or what) is the 3rd being inside the remains of the Destroyer?
Colonywars: ...faces are reminiscence of Clare memories merged into mass of Destroyer...
Answer: Good possibility. The faces must be generated from something. Clare's memories is an simpler and more elegant explanation than the cumbersome list I made in a previous post. Colonywars has a scientific viewpoint and uses here Occam's Razor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor
unlike myself and some others posters (who will go unnamed :-) that like to complicate things (probably unnecessarily, but that's half the fun).
Colonywars: It is very unlikely because Clare memories can not contain all awareness of those Claymores...
Answer: Using the wider definition of "soul," which includes awareness, this is perfectly true. But if we use more esoteric, narrower definitions of soul, which excludes awareness or personality (I apologize for sounding abstruse), Western theology talks about essence or quintessence of people, which are sometimes referred to as souls. Hermetic magic refers to them sometimes as "sparks" of divinity.
But to return to the more commonplace and mundane, let's say the warrior personality is still exists after death.
We've all seen movies about people dying and returning as guardian angels, guiding those they left behind. I'm just speculating here, but perhaps that's what implied by the characters in Claymore. The souls of the fallen warriors are either figuratively or actually accompanying the living, either in reality of Claymore, or in the imaginations of the characters.
Cliched devices or tropes as we know, but I read Claymore for emotional interest only.
Colonywars: As jamie95403 wrote somewhere: "A doomsday machine..."
Answer: I give colonywars credit for the concept from one of his earliest posts. I agree that it's possible we'll see a dramatic turning point in the series. As a poster noted in another thread, we may see "more tears than joy."
But regardless of what happens, I hope we're all surprised and all our emotions thoroughly engaged!
Re: Who(or what) is the 3rd being inside the remains of the Destroyer?
are the "souls" actual "physical manifestations" or just memories of fellow fallen Claymore?
can merely knowing a Claymore physically manifest itself within the Destroyer, or must there be an actual physical part within Clare for this to occur?
Physically a part of Clare:
1. Teresa's head (her head's "flesh and blood", brain?, was implanted into Clare turning her into a Claymore)
2. Irene's right arm. (Irene slices off the stub of shoulder regrowth/healing, then her own arm, and demands that Clare re-attches her arm to her shoulder. Clare does so, now having Irene's right arm attached to her right shoulder)
3. Rafaela's mind, soul, memories, knowledge, and experiences. (Rafaela: take everything of mine, all my pain and sorrow, my mind, my soul, my memories, my knowledge, my experiences, and "that which only you can know. Take everything of mine, Clare. I am transfering it all into you before the Destroyer consumes my body, consumes me! I'll only live on in your head/min/brain, Clare!"
acquantences/friends of Clare (no actual physical connections):
too many to list... lol. (Ophelia and Elena are some of them)
--------------------------------
so what I'm asking is:
is it even possible for the "friends/acquantences" to be manifesting themselves in the Destroyer... or should ONLY Teresa and Irene be present within the Destroyer?
are the "souls" in the Destroyer merely flashes of memories (and having NO "physical" realness), or are they actually manifested "spirits/ghosts/apparitions/poltergeists" that have a "physical" realness to them. Than how so, since Clare ONLY has Teresa, Irene, and Rafaela actually physically connected with her.
Re: Who(or what) is the 3rd being inside the remains of the Destroyer?
Hello :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamie95403
Answer: Using the wider definition of "soul," which includes awareness, this is perfectly true. But if we use more esoteric, narrower definitions of soul, which excludes awareness or personality (I apologize for sounding abstruse), Western theology talks about essence or quintessence of people, which are sometimes referred to as souls. Hermetic magic refers to them sometimes as "sparks" of divinity.
But to return to the more commonplace and mundane, let's say the warrior personality is still exists after death.
We've all seen movies about people dying and returning as guardian angels, guiding those they left behind. I'm just speculating here, but perhaps that's what implied by the characters in Claymore. The souls of the fallen warriors are either figuratively or actually accompanying the living, either in reality of Claymore, or in the imaginations of the characters.
Maybe in different way. Maybe You saw movie with Patrick Swayze "Ghost". Guy was dead, but His "Soul" phantom was present in different realm and have all His memories, behavior, individuality, all that, that makes Him "Human" even without body. Then when We could (and it is now possible) make a clone of Him, a pure new body, but without consciousness and self awareness like empty vessel, it maybe will be possible to bring Him to life 100% to 100% as He was before He died.
But then creating a body clone of somebody without this "Essence" without that, what makes Him who He was means to recover only His body. And this body must be learned everything from beginning and He will be different person in behavior and individuality from His physical original. Although there are ghosts in real life, and even things that science still can not explain, so Yours Guardian Angels could be true:) But are those Angels will want to return to physical bodies? :) To die once again, but maybe life happily again :) ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HegemonKhan
Physically a part of Clare:
1. Teresa's head (her head's "flesh and blood", brain?, was implanted into Clare turning her into a Claymore)
2. Irene's right arm. (Irene slices off the stub of shoulder regrowth/healing, then her own arm, and demands that Clare re-attches her arm to her shoulder. Clare does so, now having Irene's right arm attached to her right shoulder)
3. Rafaela's mind, soul, memories, knowledge, and experiences. (Rafaela: take everything of mine, all my pain and sorrow, my mind, my soul, my memories, my knowledge, my experiences, and "that which only you can know. Take everything of mine, Clare. I am transfering it all into you before the Destroyer consumes my body, consumes me! I'll only live on in your head/min/brain, Clare!"
I am aware, that Clare was implanted with Teresa's head (brain?) and then maybe Clare has Hers memories, individuality, behavior hidden in Herself. But what kind of individuality and self awareness You may have in piece of arm? I wrote somewhere, that maybe Yoma part has some kind of DNA memory, (and from DNA of arm cell it is possible to create whole body), but then is this body brain will also have memories, that where stored in brain cells of original one? Not from an arm cells! And even not from a part of nervous cell.
It is possible to create cells of human nervous system due cloning and tissue culture, but what makes this cells contain memories and human "spirit" are chemical compounds created due learning process and evolution of Human consciousness. I am aware of basic instincts that are implanted in everybody leaving organism, but this basic instincts did not provide self awareness but helps to survive. We must whole life learn, how to be Humans from little baby which is only sleeps, eats, and does poops.
I am apologize for My scientific scepticism , but I am really can not imagine how to revive of Irene / Ilene self awareness from piece of meat. (Of course Destroyer / Clare maybe could revive Her body! But it will not be the same Irene / Ilene.)
I rather will assume that flash of memories of Rafaela and Luciella was this 2 faces with Clare on blob thing wall before It consumed and stooped Priscilla.
Have a good day :D
Re: Who(or what) is the 3rd being inside the remains of the Destroyer?
Colonywars: But then creating a body clone of somebody without this "Essence" without that, what makes Him who He was means to recover only His body. And this body must be learned everything from beginning and He will be different person in behavior and individuality from His physical original.
Answer: There's numerous movies and TV episodes using that very device. To capsulize it for others, an innocent being is born into a cruel world he/she/it didn't create. Frankenstein is the most famous example of this motif.
Plenty of posters have noted this trope in connection with Dae's project, though they differ on how innocent the end product will behave :-)
Colonywars: Yours Guardian Angels could be true. But are those Angels will want to return to physical bodies? To die once again, but maybe life happily again?
Answer: Reading my thoughts explicated by you, I realized that in my previous post I regurgitated devices from old movies seen on late night TV. My apologies. But I'm sure Yagi seen the same movies!
Colonywars: I am apologize for My scientific scepticism , but I am really can not imagine how to revive of Irene / Ilene self awareness from piece of meat. (Of course Destroyer / Clare maybe could revive Her body! But it will not be the same Irene / Ilene.)
Answer: The Destroyer/Clare might save poor Irene's arm from total cliche. But the result would return us back to the innocent "born in a cruel world it didn't..." Of course, everyone on this forum has seen the reverse of this---movies/TV episodes in which an innocent gets a transplant from a murderer (hand, arm, heart, eyes, etc) and turns into a serial killer.
The Yoma transplant concept is a more sophisticated, subtler version of this. And surprisingly well done in my view.
I believe your statement about "scientific skepticism," but I suspect another reason may be that you've seen this trope too often! But if Yagi overtly shows what Hege suggests, then we can only hope it's "done well," whatever that means to anybody :-)
In defense of Hege, Clare does "talk" to her arm, but what that means I'll let others decide!
BTW, at the end of Anime Scene 26, as Clare leaves the mountain in Alfons, she turns and "sees" Teresa. Was it a Guardian Angel, a ghost, a hallucination?
Any suggestions, anyone?
Re: Who(or what) is the 3rd being inside the remains of the Destroyer?
Hello :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamie95403
Answer: Reading my thoughts explicated by you, I realized that in my previous post I regurgitated devices from old movies seen on late night TV. My apologies. But I'm sure Yagi seen the same movies!
Jamie, could You wrote a title of this movie? I would like to watch it on weekend :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamie95403
The Yoma transplant concept is a more sophisticated, subtler version of this. And surprisingly well done in my view.
Yes I know, that is why I just try to imagine Myself how is this works. I like SF and Fantasy because sometimes inconceivable ideas, that rise in this kind of novels, movies, mangas gives somebody a idea to try this in real live, and without Human Fantasy and Imagination We still be sitting in caves. There are plenty examples, that science catching up fantasy and fantasy gives science a reasons to evolve and develop a new previously unimaginable things :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamie95403
In defense of Hege, Clare does "talk" to her arm, but what that means I'll let others decide!
It was really not My intention to attack anybody here. If somebody feels to be offended, I deeply apologize!
HegemonKhan theories are His imagination, and I simply sometimes write what I have on My mind. Thus I never wrote that My ideas are one and only true, because I also made mistakes and I am also still learning. So everybody feel free to argue against Me :) I simply like facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamie95403
BTW, at the end of Anime Scene 26, as Clare leaves the mountain in Alfons, she turns and "sees" Teresa. Was it a Guardian Angel, a ghost, a hallucination?
Ending of anime was sweet as candy (with hope to second season :D )) But I can accept it. It was somebody's vision of hows the events should go on. In manga there is no so much "sugar", so if Org creates mindless, savage Zombies powered up by Priscilla Yoki, somebody will cry and dead bodies will falling like snowflakes in Antarctic storm. I only hope that They first loose control over this creations, and They will be annihilated in first place :) And then the question is, who will be able to kill that? Except sealed Priscilla?
Have a good day :D
Re: Who(or what) is the 3rd being inside the remains of the Destroyer?
Colonywars: Jamie, could You wrote a title of this movie? I would like to watch it on weekend...
Answer: I only remember one title: Here Comes Mr. Jordan. It's on veoh.com. It was remade decades later with Warren Beatty. But you must have seen countless similar movies and TV episodes. When I was in a writing class, we kept seeing this motif over and over when we had to critique each others' work. But in the end, what really counts is that it engages the reader's emotions.
In connection with Claymore, and the concern of personalities living on after physical death, let's look at Helen's advice to Deneuve: C'mon. It's perfectly natural to want to always stay alive. We're only human, after all!
But strangely enough, it's not necessarily oneself that Claymore warriors wish to keep alive. As the warriors themselves demonstrate, it's also other people. In Clare's case, “it's always about other people.”
Cultural anthropologists could make much of the warriors use of techniques and objects to keep “alive” or prove that someone now dead once lived.
In Scene 38, Irene tells Clare: Live Clare! Your staying alive is the only proof that Teresa ever existed.
If Irene was killed by Rafaela, then the irony of Rafaela's demise is that she was killed by the arm and sword technique of Irene (Scene 92). So Clare's living (and Rafaela's death) is also proof that Irene exists/existed.
Clare' Windcutter is all that's left of Flora. The Twin Sword of Deneuve “proves the existence” or “keeps alive” Undine. Helen's Drill Sword perhaps proves or keeps alive the memory/soul of Jean.
Whether any of these speculations are true/false, believed figuratively or literally by the characters, is left to the reader. But keep in mind this is a Medieval world. Call it shamanism or animism or whatever. At the minimal, a commemoration or honoring of the fallen is apparent here.
Colonywars: "...without Human Fantasy and Imagination We still be sitting in caves. There are plenty examples, that science catching up fantasy and fantasy gives science a reasons to evolve and develop a new previously unimaginable things"
Answer: This reminds me of:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
--George Bernard Shaw
Please stay “unreasonable” colonywars, Hege and everyone else!
Re: Who(or what) is the 3rd being inside the remains of the Destroyer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HegemonKhan
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Priscilla might have been "weaker" than she normally is prior to her abandoning of Raki and "feast-powering up-spree", however Priscilla was NOT actually "weak", just ask Renee, as "child" Priscilla nearly crushed her arm, and scared the p... and s... out of Renee, causing her pants to become wet and turn yellow and brown (hyperbolizing, her pants don't actually turn yellow and brown, nor become wet, lol)
------
Hello :)
HegemonKhan You wrote in another post, that You are brilliant in body language analysis. Thus You mentioned this in Org debriefing about founded forearm of Priscilla, and surprise on Dae face. Do You maybe know ASL ? Like I know PJM :)
Then take a look on this 2 pictures:
http://www.mangareader.net/485-29392...hapter-81.html
http://www.mangareader.net/485-29392...hapter-81.html
What can You see there? I see that thumb of Priscilla is on forearm of Renee, not under. So now take Your left (or right, if You are left-hander) hand and put it on Your opposite one like Priscilla does and try to squeeze it. You can not! Because it is only possible when Your thumb goes under forearm and then You can make grip.
So Priscilla did not use any physical force against Renee, so Her "panties goes wet", because She in direct, physical contact felt what was near by Her. I also wrote, that Priscilla had only to release 1/ 99999 Her Yoki to give enough terrifying information about what She is.
Have a good day :)
Re: Who(or what) is the 3rd being inside the remains of the Destroyer?
whether she actually used pressure or (physical-lol) force, or just from the contact, is fine with me.
I was actually just using "nearly crushing Renee's arm and P+S in her pants or her pants turning yellow+brown" for dramatic effect :D
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I agree that there was probably only contact, and not actual physical force/pressure used.
though, Priscilla even by the contact, did let Renee know, that Priscilla could certainly could crush her arm if she tried/wanted to. That "child" Priscilla had the same strength "more or less" to do to Renee, what she did to Awakened Alicia... smack-slap decipitate, hehe :D
Re: Who(or what) is the 3rd being inside the remains of the Destroyer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HegemonKhan
Physically a part of Clare:
1. Teresa's head (her head's "flesh and blood", brain?, was implanted into Clare turning her into a Claymore)
2. Irene's right arm. (Irene slices off the stub of shoulder regrowth/healing, then her own arm, and demands that Clare re-attches her arm to her shoulder. Clare does so, now having Irene's right arm attached to her right shoulder)
After re-reading the part where Clare is initially absorbed into the Destroyer after defeating Rafaela and then re-emerges, I'm not so sure it's Irene's arm anymore. Clare had to re-envision herself in order to emerge from the Yoki mass after "killing" Rafaela. That may entail using memory of herself "before" Irene's arm became part of her. She would have had to have envisioned herself without thought of which body part belonged to whom in order to accomplish it. That and Clare's body no longer has the join line on the right shoulder from Irene's arm when she emerges. Just a thought. rcfalcon.
-This is my commentary based on your quote above, that's all. Sorry for the confusion. :)
After re-reading Galatea's comments on who or what is in the blob, I would really have to guess that it is Teresa in some form. That's really the only logical conclusion since Renee wouldn't be strong enough and Rafaela really no longer exists except as a memory. Teresa is the only entity that would be able to team up with Clare in this way and be strong enough to "hold" Priscilla. Another wild theory of mine.
Re: Who(or what) is the 3rd being inside the remains of the Destroyer?
The figure on the right resembles Clare to me. At least the shape of the hair does.
The figure in the middle looks like a female with wavy hair but that could just be me projecting Teresa onto it, like one of those Rorschach tests(ink blot test).
The figure on the left looks kinda....male. Looks a bit like Dauf actually. But really there are no readily identifiable features that i can see so who knows.
Re: Who(or what) is the 3rd being inside the remains of the Destroyer?
I believe the other being inside the cocoon to be something completely unknown to us. I mean, i think Yagi might tie it in somehow just to leave us on a cliffhanger later. I can totally see that. If you recall, the destroyer's AoE was massive and sought to devour every living thing... I guess it should have been named the devourer XD.
Anyway, due to this, goodness knows what would have been sucked in! Honestly, provided a good intro, Yagi can slip anything he wants into the cocoon. My only fear is that clare is going to emerge all super powered. I really hope it doesn't turn out like this 'cuz then it would just remind me of DBZ or Naruto (cringing!)
A more subtle boost is preferred but I digress...
