Welcome to the Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread!
This is where all general discussions about the tournament will take place, this is with other words the tournament's hangout. Before you join the discussion we ask you to get familiar with the tournament rules. This post will be updated with various info which can of course be discussed.
Agenda of discussion:
Predictions about the tournament's strongest contestants in both tiers (explained below) and potential winners. While the bracket is yet to be announced, we have revealed the list of combatants. Share your predictions!
With Naruto's enormous cast bringing everyone in was impossible. Are there anyone you miss that would have been a better choice than others? How far would they have gotten in the tournament?
General thoughts around the tournament.
Tournament Information
The Tournament's Setup
Because of the quantity of characters that we want to include and the level difference between them, we have decided to split the tournament into two parts. The tournament will therefore consist of two separate tournaments - a Top Tier and Low Tier tournament. The Top Tier will consist of all the characters that the staff has measured as "very strong" fighters that are in a seperate league compared to the fighters in the Low Tier. In some cases the difference is not that large, but a line had to be drawn someplace. The Low Tier will consist of all the "weaker" characters that made the cut.
Note that the characters that were chosen were done so on the basis of how much we know about them. As such characters with too much mystery in terms of combat ability have not made the cut as the discussions would largely be centered around vague assumptions.
The Top Tier tournament will consist of 32 combatants and will be a classic straight forward tournament with 1 vs 1 fights all the way from the first rounds to the quarter, semi and final.
The Low Tier tournament will consist of 24 combatants and be a normal straight forward 1 vs 1 tournament all the way until the final. Since it doesn't add up (because of the number of combatants being 24) there will be three in the final. The way the winner will be crowned is that they all fight the two others in 1 vs 1 matches. X vs Y, X vs Z, Y vs Z. The one that is left with most points wins the tournament, for example X wins both his matches and Y wins one, Z is left without any wins in the final.
The Top Tier Tournament will have five rounds. Round 1, Round 2, Quarter-Finals, Semi-Finals and Finals.
The Low Tier Tournament will have four rounds. Round 1, Quarter-Finals, Semi-Finals and Finals.
Both tournaments will run concurrently and have two matches each going on at the same time, which means that there will always be four matches that are active. Every match will last for five days.
This system will be upheld until Round 2 of the Top Tier Tournament finishes and the Low Tier Tournament ends (which is at the same time). From there on out there will only be two matches that are active.
The staff has decided to not allow any other fight discussions to take place while the Naruto Tournament is ongoing, as it would interfere, disrupt, and compete with our Naruto Tournament.
This means that while the tournament is running Konohagakure Arena will be temporarily hidden. Rest assured that all the threads will reappear unchanged and be available again as soon as the tournament is over. We hope you understand our reasoning behind this choice, as this event is a rare one and should be given full focus for it's full duration.
July 06, 2011, 12:09 AM
MangaHelpers
Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread
This is a continuation thread, the old thread is Here
July 06, 2011, 12:09 AM
Nicholas.Sama
Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw
Itachi cannot keep launching Amaterasu even if he wanted to. For him that is basically committing Seppuku. His meager chakra will not permit it. Furthermore, I am not sure if, outside of Sasuke, A is the only person to react fast enough to prevent Amaterasu. The manga seemed to indicate that Gaara defended against it quite well using a sand defense. You can take a look at the chapter and come up with your own conclusion, though my suggestion would be to read and view more carefully. Enjoy.
First off, Gaara's reaction time had nothing to do with this feat. His sand was out before Sasuke tried to use Amaterasu on him. This is where others are having a problem. In order for Jiraiya to be able to block a blast with his hair, he would have to anticipate it (which is what Gaara did). How can he anticipate it if he doesn't know it's coming? This scenario can branch off in so many ways:
Scenario 1
Itachi turns on MS
J-Man covers himself in hair at the sight of it.
Turns out that Itachi was never going to use Amaterasu in the first place.
J-Man is now mind raped by Tsukuyomi
Why? Because in order to prepare for Amaterasu he looked Itachi straight in the eyes
Scenario 2
Itachi actually fires Amaterasu and J-Man grows his hair
We are back at square one.
Back to Gaara blocking the sand. Can we tell which flames were spammed and which flames were manipulated by Sasuke's Enton technique? There is sustained ball of flame hovering above Sasuke's head.
In the end, I can't help but wonder how J-Man's hair compares to Gaara's sand in durability.
And let's keep this peaceful guys. It's not like we are putting money on this...right? :eyeroll
July 06, 2011, 12:16 AM
ninjabot
Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw
That is the method of removal, but whatever. The point is that the flame did not reach the man, because if it had the wind would not have mattered. The armor didn't grow at all and he was fine.
Again, the armor was metal. Jiraiya's hair however, is HAIR. You're giving Jiraiya's hair properties that it hasn't displayed. The metal was fine because metal takes time to melt. I can't think of a better way to simplify the difference in situations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw
The armor wasn't "fire proof," as Amaterasu burns anything, even fire. Even if Gaara's method was not impressive to you, he is alive despite Amaterasu, which is the point, no? Not the distance his sand moved. But it doesn't matter if you were impressed really, Sasuke was. That is enough for me. If you think the fire will burn faster than Jiraiya's hair can grow, I respect your opinion but politely do not share it.
Oh, it's impressive. Just not half as impressive as everyone would like it to be considering he was prepared for the attack. If I have a moveable defense already erected then blocking on coming attacks is as simple as flinching. However if I have to grow my defense from scratch then time isn't on my side. If Gaara had no sand near him and had to rip it straight from beneath the ground he would've been screwed.
Jiraiya growing enough hair at a quick enough speed is another one of those "I can't prove he can do it, but you can't prove he can't even though it's more likely" incidents. In other words, you and your fans are WAY too proud of your argument. Take it down a notch.
EDIT: By the way, notice that Sasuke's Amaterasu also hits with kinetic force. His flames partially pushed back Gaara's sand, evidenced by your own scan. The odds that Amaterasu flatout pushes through the hair close enough to touch Jiraiya's clothes further crumples this strategy since the flames will be growing as the Amaterasu pushes.
July 06, 2011, 01:46 AM
DEATHBOTT
Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread 2
jiraiya hair grows really fast doesn't it? it rapped around pains summon quite quickly and held on to it. i would say its just as strong as the samurai armor. he used it to block oro taijutsu where as i doubt a samurai could simply rely on their armor to do that.
July 06, 2011, 02:13 AM
DementedKirby
Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread 2
Dude, read the descriptions of Jiraiya's hair jutsu from the data book itself. jdw supplied it all in detail. It's not assumptions, it's in the data book. Even if Amaterasu has a kinetic force, Jiraiya can withstand it like he did when Orochimaru kicked him (also provided in the great Jiraiya hair debate). Look at jdw's post in the precursor to this thread. It's not speculation.
July 06, 2011, 02:26 AM
Rikudou King
Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread 2
Jiraiya's hair wouldn't stop Amaterasu. It's been shown several times in the series that when the user focuses, Amaterasu burns incredibility fast. Only when they aren't focus on it does it not have much of an effect. So if Itachi wishes it, he could burn the hair and Jiraiya within a few moments.
July 06, 2011, 02:47 AM
Sevenheadedmirror
Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas.Sama
Where to begin...
First off, Gaara's reaction time had nothing to do with this feat. His sand was out before Sasuke tried to use Amaterasu on him. This is where others are having a problem. In order for Jiraiya to be able to block a blast with his hair, he would have to anticipate it (which is what Gaara did). How can he anticipate it if he doesn't know it's coming? This scenario can branch off in so many ways:
...Then Sasuke has the worst aim ever, I mean did that thing just happened to hit the sand that was already there? Of course it has everything to do with reaction time, Geez man, even Sasuke congratulated the guy.
Quote:
Scenario 1
Itachi turns on MS
J-Man covers himself in hair at the sight of it.
Turns out that Itachi was never going to use Amaterasu in the first place.
J-Man is now mind raped by Tsukuyomi
Why? Because in order to prepare for Amaterasu he looked Itachi straight in the eyes
Scenario 2
Itachi actually fires Amaterasu and J-Man grows his hair
We are back at square one.
First scenario says Jiraya can't block it. Second says he can.
Quote:
Back to Gaara blocking the sand. Can we tell which flames were spammed and which flames were manipulated by Sasuke's Enton technique? There is sustained ball of flame hovering above Sasuke's head.
Bleeding eye is a sign of amaterasu.
... OK we have analysed that J-man has the possibility to save himself against Amaterasu... how can Itachi save himself from the swamp jutsu?. Itachi is fast in his pace of doing attacks and reaction time but he sucks in terms of speed but for dashing... and the swamp's range is above any dash capability. So Jiraya survives... now how does Itachi?
July 06, 2011, 03:42 AM
En Yang Ji
Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread 2
- "Itachi can do anything, the hair jutsu isn't an appropriate defense against certain jutsu. It's unlikely IMO Jiraiya would just use it in preparation for something if he doesn't know what the nature of that something is. "
Quote:
swamp's range is above any dash capability
How do you know this?
July 06, 2011, 03:45 AM
UchihaHunter
Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread 2
I think I've read it all...Itachi has a 5/5 for speed, but he "sucks in terms of speed but for dashing"?
Of course, this is also ignoring that with genjutsu, Itachi doesn't really have to worry about dodging the swamp jutsu (which, even if he got caught in it, Susanoo would protect him from any follow-up that Jiraiya attempts).
Also, I want to note that this doesn't exactly look unharmed, and we know that the Raikage was moving so fast that even Sasuke couldn't follow him...so the samurai wasn't really burning for that long, seeing as how all that happened in between was Sasuke getting wtfchopped and Gaara interfering (which really makes that sand stop even more impressive).
People also ignore that for all of Jiraiya's hair's speed, Pain dodged the actual attack (not the grab) with Kawarimi.
However, I don't buy the "it's just hair" argument. It blocked Orochimaru's kick...that alone shows it has some strength to it, he tore apart Pain's crab summon with it, etc. He definitely can make his hair more than "just hair."
But if Jiraiya does protect himself with his hair against Amaterasu, what exactly does the Amaterasu (or even Itachi) do while it's burning his hair? It doesn't exactly stop until he wills it to, no?
July 06, 2011, 03:56 AM
Nicholas.Sama
Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread
that's why they are called scenarios....and you completely missed my point.
I don't think he can. However, if he were to block it, what would happen next?
I'm sorry, did you just say that Itachi's speed sucks?
And I have a serious question about the swamps usefullness against a single opponent. (I'm actually being serious.) What would stop Itachi from standing on it like water?
July 06, 2011, 04:15 AM
chilibun
Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread 2
People really need to stop calling Sasuke's enton jutsu on Gaara Amaterasu because it is not and it is completely misleading on how it can be blocked. Amaterasu, compared to most S-class jutsus, is not overly powerful in term of explosive or concussive force. What makes it extremely deadly though, is its speed and the way the jutsu is nearly impossible to dodge. The flames ignite on the focus of the eye, which means its target simply bursts into flames. Other than super EE, nobody has the reflexes or speed to dodge something like that. It is also said to be inextinguishable and burns hotter than the sun. I don't see how anybody, without a powerful defensive jutsu like a Susanoo or Bijuu cloak, can survive getting hit by it. Even Ee with his Raiton shield have to chop off his arm just by making contact with it. Even if, and I mean if, the flames do not spread fast by itself, we've seen how quickly the flames can be created when the eye is focused on it here and here. If Jiraiya gets hit with Amaterasu, his whole body will be consumed by the flames. His hair is not going to be able to block it nor does he even have time to use it. Its like if my jacket catches fire, I might have the time to remove it and stomp it out. However, I have no chance against somebody shooting me in face with a flamethrower.
July 06, 2011, 05:37 AM
jdw
Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas.Sama
that's why they are called scenarios....and you completely missed my point.
I don't think he can. However, if he were to block it, what would happen next?
I'm sorry, did you just say that Itachi's speed sucks?
And I have a serious question about the swamps usefullness against a single opponent. (I'm actually being serious.) What would stop Itachi from standing on it like water?
Here is my evidence for why I think water walking would not work, but people are free to believe what they want:
The more you struggle, the more you sink
A bottomless swamp from Hell!!
By changing the ground into mud and creating a swamp, the enemy is sunk deep underground...!! The adhesive, chakra-infused mud ensnares the enemy's body. It's impossible to recover one's strength and escape from there. The size and depth of the created swamp depend on the user's skill and the amount of chakra used, but if the user is an expert in this technique, it will always be possible to make a fair-sized swamp! When fighting a great number of enemies or having to face gigantic creatures, this is an extremely effective technique.
↓The giant snake captured in this bog is prevented from moving! But if you ask Jiraiya, he'd say it is insufficient. The real goal of this technique is to completely submerge the target underground.
[picture of Orochimaru's snake summon caught in this technique]
This swamp goes down to abysmal depths!!
*Yomi is the place where the you go after death according to the Japanese Shinto mythology. Since Buddhism was introduced in Japan, it is also considered one of the Buddhist hells.
It's unlike the Western concepts of Heaven and Hell, though. It isn't a paradise in any way, nor is it a place for punsiment. All the dead, regardless of their behaviour in life, go there to carry on a gloomy and shadowy existance and rot for all eternity.
---------- Post added at 06:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:56 AM ----------
Additionally, the enton used on Gaara was Amaterasu. It appears that Sasuke is just better at manipulating the flames. As for why Gaara was able to block Amaterasu, I think it is because Sasuke is unable to Amaterasu snipe for accuracy at distances. He tried to light Gaara on fire and failed miserably against the sand. For people saying it was a pre-created flame Sasuke moved at Gaara, I am not sure of that, but even if it was, Amaterasu was still blocked. We can see that even when Sasuke summons Amaterasu up, it comes with force, that is why when it missed Raikage, it continued on to hit the samurai. If we look here, Sasuke has no Susanoo or Amaterasu. He appears to have cut off both jutsu.
He could have been distance sniping and failed, as Amaterasu is a close range jutsu (Per databook II) and Gaara is a smaller target than Hachibi. We even saw that when he created it against Raikage, it was not born upon Raikage, and it had Kinetic force and continued on to the samurai, as ninjabot has shown amaterasu to have when it pushed back the sand.
July 06, 2011, 05:57 AM
ninjabot
Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by DementedKirby
Dude, read the descriptions of Jiraiya's hair jutsu from the data book itself. jdw supplied it all in detail. It's not assumptions, it's in the data book. Even if Amaterasu has a kinetic force, Jiraiya can withstand it like he did when Orochimaru kicked him (also provided in the great Jiraiya hair debate). Look at jdw's post in the precursor to this thread. It's not speculation.
I did. And it didn't say a thing about being unflammable, resistant to flames, OR faster than an instantaneous jutsu. This jutsu is being given far better feats/potential than it's shown it's capable of performing and I can't for the life of me figure out why. The most that's said is that it resembles steel wire because chakra is being pumped through it making it stronger than regular hair when bunched together. It's ALSO B rank, as opposed to Amaterasu's (though unranked) status as the strongest fire jutsu in the manga.
But a B rank is totally gonna tank that. Totally. You also miss what I meant by Amaterasu's kinetic force. IF he manages to get his hair in the path of a jutsu that he can't see then the flames (that are literally infront of his face by like... a foot or less based on the speed at which it connects) will push the flaming hairs INTO him, burning him alive anyway.
I'm not calling out his strategy because he's speculating, I'm calling it out because it's counterproductive to his claim that Jiraiya has an answer to Amaterasu because it doesn't guarantee him safety by any means. It's just a bad example.
Unless you're confusing it with the Sage Mode hair attack which happens to be Jiraiya's fastest jutsu... and that one is a spray of needles so it's defensive options are extremely limited. Likewise, even if you consider how it stretched out to attack the crab you'll have to accept that he reacted to seeing the giant crab first. Him reacting to a fireball appearing on top of him out of nowhere and sprouting a big enough amount of hair, in the right amount of time is just unlikely.
See? It's these kinds of arguments that made no one take Jiraiya's supporters seriously in the Sasuke vs. Jiraiya thread. Pretty much every argument requires suspension of proven facts and displayed feats. We have to forget that Amaterasu is near instantaneous. We have to forget that ninja in the tournament don't know about jutsu being used on them until they're used. We have to forget that Itachi can use another Amaterasu right after the first if he wants to hit Jiraiya while he's cutting off hair. We have to forget that Jiraiya has shown no ability to defend against Genjutsu from ninja of Sasuke or Itachi's skill level, leaving him struggling to break free before having an Amaterasu dropped on him.
Then (and only then) can we entertain the idea of him winning against either ninja. The only exception being when votes determine victory rather than sense. And so here we are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw
As for why Gaara was able to block Amaterasu, I think it is because Sasuke is unable to Amaterasu snipe for accuracy at distances. He tried to light Gaara on fire and failed miserably against the sand.
As opposed to it being because he already had his sand out and in front of him, capable of moving a simple foot or two in the path of where Sasuke's looking? If his aim was horrid at that range there would be no need to block the jutsu as it would simply miss. The flames were in direct line of sight with Gaara. They were blocked because he didn't want he or his siblings to burn to death. Accuracy had nothing to do with it.
As for the jutsu not being "born upon Raikage", it was... just, it was his after image it appeared on top of and continued propelling thanks to not connecting with anything solid.
July 06, 2011, 06:08 AM
hakuthehedgehog
Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread 2
Jiraya wouldn't react to amaterasu appearing in front of him, he would react when Itachi closed one of his eyes: IMO that gives time for Jiraya to either lauch a fireball, summon one of the frogs or use his hair.
