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That's not necessarily true. Of course there would be restrictions but now that we are aware of it, Koto-amatsukami can not be over come. The best argument that could be made against it would be, "it's not the same eye." But how well with that holdup? Especially with recent events in the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaymizzo
If there was going to be a band list for the tournament, Danzo, and Madara would have to be on it because it's such a clear sweep for the both of them.
You can't see Amaterasu coming, its just hits you. The only warning sign is your eye changing, and if your a sensor i guess you could "feel" it coming, but thats it. Tobi was in the middle of taking off his mask against a defenseless Sasuke whom couldn't use Ama to his knowledge. How could you react to something that shouldn't have happened?Quote:
Originally Posted by syx
And when did it become the general consensus that Tobi used Izanagi to deal with Amaterasu? I know he has a bunch of spare eyes but you shouldn't be passing it off as it was fact.
I probably used the wrong words, sorry for that. Of course you can't see Amaterasu coming, I'm well aware of how Amaterasu works. What I mean is that you can clearly anticipate it. Raikage dodged Amaterasu because of this little fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaStar
Obito knew that something is about to happen. He saw Sasukes 3 tomoe Sharingan turning into Itachis MS, he thought that this is impossible and after all of that he was still hit by Amaterasu. Obito was only suprised by Sasukes Sharingan changing, he was never caught off guard by Amaterasu itself, because everything hints that he noticed that something was coming/going to happen.
The fact that Obito stated (when he appeared right after the Ama-trap) he would be dead, if Itachi would know about his secrets is enough for me to think that he used Izanagi. Not to mention that Obitos right side was hit and engulfed by Amaterasu, Kishi showed us a panel of complete silence and the sudden appearance of Obito after a couple of seconds without any damage (neither his body nor his clothes) tends everything towards Izanagi.
At that time Obitos biggest secret we know of (and which he had access to in this situation) was his stock of minimum 104 Sharingans.
I don't see Itachi losing to Obito (with the mentioned conditions), never, at no point of time.
Every single claim/argument in my posts are just my personal opinion. I never said that they are facts. It's just annoying to put the words "in my view", "in my opinion", "I think", "this is how I see it" and so on in every single sentence. If I gave you or others the impression that the contents of my posts are given facts, I'm sorry about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaStar
Very interesting theory. Tobi removed the left side of his mask before using Izanagi against Konan, meaning it requires eye contact. And when he was hit by the Amaterasu he wasn't covering his eye too.
Then the fans will complain and accuse mods of being biased no matter how obvious it is who wins. "But Minato will win because genjutsu can't affect him because he's Minato! YOU DIRTY UCHIHA FANBOY HERP DERP!!!1" In my opinion, not worth the headache.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
Sasuke will always lose to Jiraiya, Naruto, Minato, and Hashirama no matter what powerups he get. Everyone will actually lose to those four, and those three will lose to Naruto.
Nooooooo, Naruto will win. Mark my words, Naruto will win.Quote:
There are many ways for it to work.
This would also limit the most hyped one, Hashirama, to breeze through the tournament :lmao
Never said or meant to imply he didn't make the bonds himself. That's Naruto's power, ability to strike up friendship without needing to talk much.Quote:
Originally Posted by KiSwordsman
Minato could have talked to Naruto and made him realize he was loved. Gaara went batshit crazy because he was never loved, or never felt loved. He was betrayed. Sasuke went crazy because he wanted revenge. Naruto was close to being bad because of the loneliness he experienced. If Minato appeared before him, he'd have probably prevented that or made Naruto good again by talking to him.
Maybe it took Jiraiya this long because of Akatsuki. Had he known about Naruto turning to the dark side, he'd have probably come back. And Kakashi would have been there for Naruto.
Yamato could at least hold the Kyuubi Naruto with Mokuton. I found the necklace thing to be weird, to be honest.
Rinnegan wouldn't be useful if Nagato wasn't able to utilize it well. He still had to practice to some degree and prepare. The Six Paths of Pain needed preparation. If Nagato could master every jutsu easily, all Jiraiya would have needed to do was make up a book telling Nagato how to do this jutsu or whatever, and Nagato would be able to do it by himself. Jiraiya wouldn't need to teach Nagato jutsu.Quote:
Oh trust me, I know exactly what you mean. Nagato was my favorite member of the organization, right behind Sasori. however, as time went on Kishimoto made him look more and more like a bitch. It was not until the revelation of madara's Rinnegan that he stripped him of all credibility. Oh it was bad enough that his resolve could be swayed like it was, but then Kishimoto turned him into an absolute tool with the Kabuto incident. So basically, all he's left with in terms of credit is the utilization of Madara Uchiha's eyes. (Until stated or shown otherwise) that's crap, complete and utter crap. Oh, but credit should be given because it requires his chakra.… Sure okay. I could understand if each technique took a heavy toll. However, it took him in a while and a bunch of jutsu, broken jutsu, to get where he ended up.
The only thing he's suffered was loneliness, and even that helped made him who he is. So in retrospect, the Kyuubi helped Naruto realize the value of bonds and made him even stronger for that. Not sure if this makes sense, but I'm not saying Kyuubi is the reason why Naruto has bonds or that he's strong, as his willpower is the reason why he's this strong. The risk like Kyuubi breaking free was minimal, at best, thanks to Minato. Even Kushina helped Naruto beat the Kyuubi.Quote:
Even if the fox is considered a free power because it presented no noticeable detrimental effects during battle, Naruto still had to suffer for just having it lock away. the fact that he overcame that suffering doesn't take away anything. And there were also risk beyond that we've already discussed. Even if the fox is to be considered a completely free power up, Naruto has skills and abilities beyond that. He also isn't a total pawn like Nagato was.
But true, Naruto has underrated and underestimated skills beyond the Kyuubi.
But how will Itachi hurt Tobi? The only reason Tobi didn't go intangible was because he wasn't expecting Amaterasu. He was still "wtf" at Sasuke's eye going Itachi Mangekyo mode. If it was as easy as that, Itachi would have taken out Tobi right after the massacre, before Tobi even joined Akatsuki publicly.Quote:
Originally Posted by syx
No, Naruto will win. Somehow Minato and Naruto will make it to the final round, again, and Naruto will win, again... unless he gets stripped of Kyuubi or Kyuubi chakra.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaymizzo
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3J
Here you implied that bonds discredited Naruto's situation or that's how it seemed. That's on Naruto, nobody else.Quote:
Originally Posted by M3J
Kakashi wasn't there for Naruto in the first place. he had no obligation, unlike Jiraiya. It was just as much about Jiraiya not being able to face his failures as it was about him gathering information on the organization and "keeping an eye" on Orochimaru. That part about Yamato is pure speculation. Didn't his seal mean Jack all when the fox broke the necklace?
Minato being able to fix everything when the fox has Major influence on Naruto is extremely far fetched. The ichibi convinced Gaara that it was his mother. To say that Minato would just be able to come in and fix all of that psychological damage is reaching a bit.
Obito under cut the six paths of pain argument with the Edo jinchuriki. Once again, benefit of the doubt and assumptions.Quote:
Rinnegan wouldn't be useful if Nagato wasn't able to utilize it well. He still had to practice to some degree and prepare. The Six Paths of Pain needed preparation. If Nagato could master every jutsu easily, all Jiraiya would have needed to do was make up a book telling Nagato how to do this jutsu or whatever, and Nagato would be able to do it by himself. Jiraiya wouldn't need to teach Nagato jutsu.
He was also hated and shunned. The fox did not orchestrate the whole thing to teach Naruto a lesson about suffering. So it doesn't matter If it made him who he is. The point is he overcame it So it shouldn't be used to discredit him and it doesn't mean it's not a price.Quote:
The only thing he's suffered was loneliness, and even that helped made him who he is. So in retrospect, the Kyuubi helped Naruto realize the value of bonds and made him even stronger for that. Not sure if this makes sense, but I'm not saying Kyuubi is the reason why Naruto has bonds or that he's strong, as his willpower is the reason why he's this strong. The risk like Kyuubi breaking free was minimal, at best, thanks to Minato. Even Kushina helped Naruto beat the Kyuubi.
But true, Naruto has underrated and underestimated skills beyond the Kyuubi.
If the mods that decided the outcome are mods known for their preference, like yourself and Rikudou King, just to name 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by M3J
Benelori, for example, would be fantastic, since he never raises his tones, is always well-mannered and he never showed any bias whatsoever :hip
Also Sasuke isn't the strongest guy in the Narutoverse, of course he would lose to Hashirama, come on.
If he's unlucky and gets Hashirama Naruto can't win, same with Rin'negan Madara ( if he don't get banned by the tournament :lmao )Quote:
Nooooooo, Naruto will win. Mark my words, Naruto will win.
We don't know as Naruto never went berserk again after Minato appeared.Quote:
Originally Posted by KiSwordsman
Not necessarily as he was able to make Naruto more confident again by appearing, after Hinata's "death" broke Naruto. The main reason Kyuubi had an influence over Naruto was because of his childhood. If he learned the truth, then the fox will have less of an influence.Quote:
Minato being able to fix everything when the fox has Major influence on Naruto is extremely far fetched. The ichibi convinced Gaara that it was his mother. To say that Minato would just be able to come in and fix all of that psychological damage is reaching a bit.
No one ever tried to talk to Gaara. Gaara wanted to feel loved, and Ichibi could influence Gaara into thinking that. Kyuubi could have as well, but Minato appearing could negate everything Kyuubi did to Naruto.
He still had to learn it somehow. Even then, it wasn't perfect as Tobi did say it's not exactly how he wanted.Quote:
Obito under cut the six paths of pain argument with the Edo jinchuriki. Once again, benefit of the doubt and assumptions.
If the Rinnegan really is Madara, Nagato paid the price of losing his actual eyes and experiencing pain of eye transplant. That's a price as well, not a free powerup. What if Madara messed up? Nagato could have been blind forever.Quote:
He was also hated and shunned. The fox did not orchestrate the whole thing to teach Naruto a lesson about suffering. So it doesn't matter If it made him who he is. The point is he overcame it So it shouldn't be used to discredit him and it doesn't mean it's not a price.
I'm not biased, otherwise I wouldn't object to Itachi beating Tobi. I'm just realistic and can admit the truth, something that many Minato fans, Jiraiya fans, and even Itachi fans are apparently unable to do. Thing is, no one looks deeper, they just assume based on what is said as long as it's a good thing about their favorite character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
I know, I'm saying if Sasuke gets a ginormous powerup. He could be the strongest, even beat Rikudou Sennin canonically, and still lose to Naruto, who lost to Rikudou Sennin in five seconds, just because people hate him and love Naruto.
Do not underestimate fandom, my son. Naruto will somehow fiaan assure you someone will find a way to beat Hashirama. We even saw Naruto destroy Mokuton with his rasengan. And people will use necklace as a reason for Hashirama not being able to do anything about Kyuubi's chakra.Quote:
If he's unlucky and gets Hashirama Naruto can't win, same with Rin'negan Madara ( if he don't get banned by the tournament :lmao )
Rin'negan Madara should be banned though.
This part shows your bias, though, since you believe Sasuke is mistreated, and that anyone that will argue that Sasuke < someone else will do it for spite and not for what he thinks.Quote:
Originally Posted by M3J
Not that's is bad being biased, mind you, everyone is more of less.
I myself tend to hugely downplay Sasuke whenever I see the wank getting too high :lmao
Well it would be SM Naruto vs Hashirama then, its not like suppressing Kyuubi's chakra leaves Naruto himself without chakra.Quote:
Do not underestimate fandom, my son. Naruto will somehow fiaan assure you someone will find a way to beat Hashirama. We even saw Naruto destroy Mokuton with his rasengan. And people will use necklace as a reason for Hashirama not being able to do anything about Kyuubi's chakra.
Rin'negan Madara should be banned though.
And I doubt anyone would argue that SM Naruto has any chance whatsoever against Hashirama :lmao
Yep, Madara should really be banned :lmao
One can still insert EMS Madara though
Yes, so it's more on the speculation side to say that Yamato could do anything of significance. We know that this happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by M3J
Yes, and in that situation Naruto was in a distraught state, not a crazy person from the beginning like I've already stated. He had a mind separate from the fox, and learned to distance himself from it's influence. No one talked to Gaara because unless you were a powerful ninja, he'd kill you because "mother wants your blood" "Minato could negate everything" based on what?Quote:
Not necessarily as he was able to make Naruto more confident again by appearing, after Hinata's "death" broke Naruto. The main reason Kyuubi had an influence over Naruto was because of his childhood. If he learned the truth, then the fox will have less of an influence.
No one ever tried to talk to Gaara. Gaara wanted to feel loved, and Ichibi could influence Gaara into thinking that. Kyuubi could have as well, but Minato appearing could negate everything Kyuubi did to Naruto.
The six paths wasn't a Rinnegan standard jutsu though as we see from Obito, it was a method with which Nagato could be productive despite his body being hindered, some might say useless.Quote:
He still had to learn it somehow. Even then, it wasn't perfect as Tobi did say it's not exactly how he wanted.
Did I imply that Nagato lost nothing for gaining the Rinnegan? I implied he paid no pice for having it. He lost his eyes, but was granted god like abilities. Naruto lost his parents for gaining the fox, but was granted benefits with it's imprisonment. however, along with these benefits he was a pariah. Hated, and shunned by everyone, except the bonds that he made himself. Not to mention the fox had the ability to exert its influence on Naruto in effort to get free of its imprisonment.Quote:
If the Rinnegan really is Madara, Nagato paid the price of losing his actual eyes and experiencing pain of eye transplant. That's a price as well, not a free powerup. What if Madara messed up? Nagato could have been blind forever.
Also, who in the world said that Nagato Had to be conscious for the transplant?
Izanagi requiring eye contact doesn't make any sense, since it affects your own reality and has nothing to do with the opponent. Besides Obitos left Sharingan never had eye contact with Konan and he could still use Izanagi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox666
Obito removed the left side of his mask, because Kishi wanted to show us:It was never necessary for Obito to remove the left side of his mask, just like it was never necessary for Minato to waste some seconds to wear his cape, before fighting against Obito and Kyuubi.
- what is hidden at the left side of Obitos face -> a Sharingan in his left eye socket
- the connection between the wall of Sharingans and Obito -> over a hundred spare of eyes
Obito clearly knew that something was going to happen, otherwise the bubble with Obito thinking "impossible" wouldn't make any sense. He probably didn't expect Amaterasu, but he did expect something.Quote:
Originally Posted by M3J
How is Itachi going to hurt Obito? First he is going to figure out that Obito needs to go tangible in order to attack. That's not a big deal since Minato and two fodder Roots figured this out without taking any damage. Then he is going to distract Obito with Clones and Genjutsus (finger or eye). If I remember correctly no one Itachi fought so far (excluding Chakra-Mode Naruto) saw him performing Clones or realized that there is a Clone of Itachi walking around the battlefield until it was obvious. Bee, Sasuke, Kakashi and Sage Mode Kabuto fell for it. That's an impressive feat and shouldn't be underestimated.
Itachi will prepare Izanami and hit Obito with Amaterasu or the Sword of Totsuka in the right time, forcing Obito to use Izanagi. It's even debatable wether Obito can use Izanagi when he is hit with the Sword of Totsuka. Orochimaru and Nagato were unable to do anything after being hit.
But let us assume that he can. If Izanami is ready, Obito is still finished. If not, Obito can't use Izanagi anymore and Itachi only needs to hit him once more or Izanami him, when he can.
Right after the massacre? You think they met each other after that incident?Quote:
Originally Posted by M3J
He is, though. If I was biased, I'd have said Jiraiya beats Sasuke, since I do like Jiraiya and don't care for Sasuke ever since he met Tobi. If you look at past posts, people accuse Sasuke of getting free powerups, and crying about how he pulled Amaterasu, Susano'o, and MS genjutsu out of his ass. They tend to forget that he is actually a genius and has paid the price for almost every powerups he's gotten.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
You'd be shocked, actually.Quote:
Well it would be SM Naruto vs Hashirama then, its not like suppressing Kyuubi's chakra leaves Naruto himself without chakra.
And I doubt anyone would argue that SM Naruto has any chance whatsoever against Hashirama :lmao
Yep, Madara should really be banned :lmao
One can still insert EMS Madara though
It may be speculation, but based on what was said about Hashirama being able to controll all bijuu, it doesn't seem like an impossible speculation.Quote:
Originally Posted by KiSwordsman
Doesn't change him being influenced by the Kyuubi like Gaara was influenced by the Ichibi, though two are kind of different.Quote:
Yes, and in that situation Naruto was in a distraught state, not a crazy person from the beginning like I've already stated. He had a mind separate from the fox, and learned to distance himself from it's influence. No one talked to Gaara because unless you were a powerful ninja, he'd kill you because "mother wants your blood" "Minato could negate everything" based on what?
Minato was able to make Naruto regain confidence and thus control over himself and Kyuubi's influence as well as strengthen the seal. The only reason why Gaara was crazy was because no one liked him. If Minato appeared, Naruto would realize he was loved.
What do you mean by Rinnegan standard jutsu? It so far is exclusive only to Rinnegan....Quote:
The six paths wasn't a Rinnegan standard jutsu though as we see from Obito, it was a method with which Nagato could be productive despite his body being hindered, some might say useless.
And I said he did pay price. Pain, risk of blindness, and quite possibly his parents' lives if Madara made it so his parents would die in order for Nagato to start using his Rinnegan. Kyuubi didn't get the ability to exert its influence until Jiraiya trained Naruto for two to three years. It could have let Naruto die in order to break free, since it could slowly regenerate, but the Kyuubi chose to protect Naruto instead.Quote:
Did I imply that Nagato lost nothing for gaining the Rinnegan? I implied he paid no pice for having it. He lost his eyes, but was granted god like abilities. Naruto lost his parents for gaining the fox, but was granted benefits with it's imprisonment. however, along with these benefits he was a pariah. Hated, and shunned by everyone, except the bonds that he made himself. Not to mention the fox had the ability to exert its influence on Naruto in effort to get free of its imprisonment.
Also, who in the world said that Nagato Had to be conscious for the transplant?
Kakashi was conscious when he got Sharingan, no? Sasuke was apparently conscious when he got EMS. Why wouldn't Nagato be conscious?
He was probably shocked at Sasuke showing Itachi's Mangekyo. If Tobi has enough time to react, I can't see why he couldn't avoid it.Quote:
Originally Posted by syx
Minato had to fight once or twice to figure that out, and the Root probably had info on Tobi.Quote:
How is Itachi going to hurt Obito? First he is going to figure out that Obito needs to go tangible in order to attack. That's not a big deal since Minato and two fodder Roots figured this out without taking any damage. Then he is going to distract Obito with Clones and Genjutsus (finger or eye). If I remember correctly no one Itachi fought so far (excluding Chakra-Mode Naruto) saw him performing Clones or realized that there is a Clone of Itachi walking around the battlefield until it was obvious. Bee, Sasuke, Kakashi and Sage Mode Kabuto fell for it. That's an impressive feat and shouldn't be underestimated.
Can Tobi be affected by genjutsu? He has Sharingan, I doubt genjutsu will work, even done by Itachi.
Neither should Tobi's ability to go intangible.
Eww, Izanami.Quote:
Itachi will prepare Izanami and hit Obito with Amaterasu or the Sword of Totsuka in the right time, forcing Obito to use Izanagi. It's even debatable wether Obito can use Izanagi when he is hit with the Sword of Totsuka. Orochimaru and Nagato were unable to do anything after being hit.
But let us assume that he can. If Izanami is ready, Obito is still finished. If not, Obito can't use Izanagi anymore and Itachi only needs to hit him once more or Izanami him, when he can.
Right after the massacre? You think they met each other after that incident?
Why couldn't they have?
Yes, and Yamato is no where near Hashirama. This has been highlighted multiple times. based on the info we've been given, without that Necklace he is even less of a factor. So ultimately, it's just reaching.Quote:
Originally Posted by M3J
You're saying that Naruto, being distraught, and susceptible to the Fox's influence for brief moments because of the circumstances, is the same as Gaara being a complete nutcase for number of years?Quote:
Doesn't change him being influenced by the Kyuubi like Gaara was influenced by the Ichibi, though two are kind of different.
Minato was able to make Naruto regain confidence and thus control over himself and Kyuubi's influence as well as strengthen the seal. The only reason why Gaara was crazy was because no one liked him. If Minato appeared, Naruto would realize he was loved.
The seven path abilitiesQuote:
What do you mean by Rinnegan standard jutsu? It so far is exclusive only to Rinnegan....
That was never my gripe though. My issue was with Nagato not having to go through any suffering for simply having, or due to the Rinnegan, not gaining it. So I'm not sure where you're going with this. You are taking a giant guess with the statement about his parents. Even then, it would still fall under the category of gainingQuote:
And I said he did pay price. Pain, risk of blindness, and quite possibly his parents' lives if Madara made it so his parents would die in order for Nagato to start using his Rinnegan. Kyuubi didn't get the ability to exert its influence until Jiraiya trained Naruto for two to three years. It could have let Naruto die in order to break free, since it could slowly regenerate, but the Kyuubi chose to protect Naruto instead.
Kakashi was conscious when he got Sharingan, no? Sasuke was apparently conscious when he got EMS. Why wouldn't Nagato be conscious?
So I guess Haku, Orochimaru and Sasuke didn't mean anything. Even still, does that change the fact that it still happened? however, eyeballs cannot do that because they're not sentient. I doubt the fox itself knew about the whole "regeneration" thing
You are completely assuming in the case of Sasuke. How does that even matter anyway? Because one character was awake for a transplant in the middle of a war, that means all characters that get eye transplants have to be conscious for the operation?
Since you brought up a risk that was possible but didn't happen at all, given the fact that madara was swapping out eyes like baseball cards So him messing up on Nagato's transplant is highly unlikely, I'll throw in Naruto getting all his chakra drained by the fox and dying. That's was still a risk even though it didn't come close to happening. A risk that was actually mentioned in the manga.
Bias isn't tied with what one's like, I am becoming biased towards Yondaime despite not being a big fan of the man because I'm seeing how desperate people are getting in trying to get him down using the most strange motivations and arguments while trying and failing to appear unbiased.Quote:
Originally Posted by M3J
For all the hate Sasuke receives, have you ever seen 4-5 thread pages on the interpretation of one phrase? :lmao
Hell do you see the same hate on people praising Yondaime when someone posts that Sasuke would solo 5 Kages at the same time?
Come on!
Also people accusation doesn't mean the world is out against Sasuke, I see character downplaying everywhere :lmao
One has to be objective regardless of what people says
I doubt that, if you'd make a Hashirama vs SM Naruto thread in the Arena , even a single person would say Naruto wins.Quote:
You'd be shocked, actually.
He could say it, but then he would have proof that Naruto simply can't compare.
Also for the tourney, I believe Kabutomaru would be another that could reach the top, he is incredibly underestimated in this forum
That's because I always end it on page 1, lolzz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
But on a more serious note, Sasuke really has to thank all his opponents in the Narutoverse who have been underrating him, because they are the ones who would ultimately contribute to his power-ups.
Orochimaru: "meh he's just a kid, I can still take him on with bandages on my hands".
Danzou: "I've more sharingans than joo so you can't possibly beat me, lolololz"
A: "I'm Raikage so I don't have to think things through. Rage will solve everything! Hell ya!".