Moderator message by: M3JKeep it civil.
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Moderator message by: M3JKeep it civil.
@Prince Sasuke
Spoiler show
xXan
Quite frankly it dosen't matter whether you are talking about a fight between the two ,or just sharingan Mastery, (which was previous obvious to me) in both cases Tobi stomps.Quote:
At least he has a MS to use a MS jutsu lol. Aparently you like interpretating my words as you like...
Also my response was in context with this fight. I asumed you stated he is not a good user like those dudes and then i stated he is on Tobi's level in CONTEXT with the topic we are in.
There are still two other areas we disagree on and that's Control,and Jutsu(sharingan) .... which Tobi stomps.Quote:
In all my posts i told you about using it in a fight... Aparently you kept ignoring it. I admited some times now that Tobi has better information on it...
Doesn't matter the circumstance, that's a feat that Kakashi simply can't do.Quote:
Tobi himself had to w8 for the seal to be very weak and close to nonexisting before doing anything. Kyuubi direcly compared Sasuke's ability to Madara.
My point is that Kakashi don't have the three main areas to ever be on Tobi's level. FYI Kakashi definitely didn't have mastery over his sharigan back then.Quote:
1-Uchiha blood.
2-Sharingan.
3-Master level skill in sharingan.
Kakashi had 2 and 3(Itachi stated about the blood thing only). But i faill to see what you whant to point out with this?
Sasuke activated the CS in a Genjutsu,but when he came out of the Genjutsu the CS wasn't activated..... So it never happen, but that's a can ot worms for another day.Quote:
Sasuke had Sharingan + Uchiha blood but still had to activate CS to give himself a boost to bust out and even then we can't even be sure Itachi never planed that to happen as killing Sasuke in genjutsu was defenetly not his plan (or even win that fight). That entire fight was planed.
Trrible example, No matter how Naruto looks, they all still gain the same upgrade. More and powee,speed and a bijuu bomb.Quote:
Heh? Name 1 Jin that could go Biju mode like Naruto, using a shield and not the Biju himself forming from the user in the form of flesh and what not. Just because nobody else has done it does not mean its not possible. You have no idea what Kishi plans to do with Tobi and his jutsus. Its not double standards, its an unknown. Up to the moment Kishi makes a databook or states something in the manga we can theorize, asume or form hypothesis but its not fact.
Who would belive some chapters back that Naruto could go full biju mode by using a shield in the form of Kyuubi? If i would tell you that before it was showed you would tell me i am nuts.
How about shooting a bijudama trough your hands... Who else can do that? If you can show me 1 more example of the above things i will show you an Uchiha doing what you asked.
I guess i repharse that wrong... I apologize. What i meant to say is I'm using the word 'double standard', when thats just a much more friendly word. The truth is you are a hypocrite. ( thats not a bad word) Its ok for you say that Tobi has some type of 'connenction',or 'summoning pack' with the Kyuubi without Manga proof, but its not ok for me to Say Tobi's Jutsu is sharingan when it comes from his eye,and no other shinobi(with sharingan) can use Jutsu from his eye without it being from the sharingan.Quote:
Nice... I am civilized with you and this is what i get. Now if you can't keep it civil in your future posts i will not be replying. Just because somebody does not agrees with your oppinions and had diferent oppinions (right or wrong) does not give you the right to insult them.
Sasuke could've use a weaker version, or the Jutsu was wearing off cause Manda was dying.... EVen Suigestu said it was GENJUTSU http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/363/11Quote:
Look at it. Its an reflection like image on the eye. The eye itself is identical to how it was before. The iris has not changed in any way. Compare that to this:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/501/8
The iris itself changed, it made physical changes in the eye. Your example just had a image reflected (no idea what other word to use) on the eye. The eye itself had NO physical changes done to it.
See perfect example of a hypocrite. can say the same exact thing to you. I suspose to believe that you can sommon a Tail beast that is made of PURE CHAKRA (hae no blood) the same way a person can summon a hawk, toad,or dog?? You need some evidence for that... theres your arguement.Quote:
And untill that is showed don't you think we need to use the jutsu as SHOWED to work in the manga, as Kishi showed it to work in his databooks? You whant to asume its diferent based on what? You need some evidence for that. I am not going to asume the summoning is diferent with no arguments.
the "connection,orPack you keep mentioning is not any different.Quote:
Just because it never happened before it does not mean it must be like all the other jutsus.
I never stated its defenetly not so, i even told you its the more likely hypothesis but its not fact up to the point Kishi showes us what it is. With his databooks or manga.
Take genjutsu. Its genjutsu just chanled trough the eye for more power. I gues it can be considered a sharingan ability as you can't do it the same way if you don't have a sharingan but you can do genjutsu even with no sharingan but diferently. Same thing could be here. How much is this a feat for the sharingan its an unknown.
Its not an opinion, its a fact. The reason why its a fact cause Kakashi don't have the body/blood to be on Tobi's leve, He can't control the nine tail beast like Tobi can,He don't have Knowledge that Tobi has..... He can't bring himselfback to life like Tobi can....... thats proof.Quote:
I like how people keep stating my arguments have been proven when its just there oppinions... For you arguments to be proven you need manga pics or panels or the databook stating how Tobi's jutsus work, up to that point you can only asume and have an oppinion. The diference is i keep telling you we don't know and you keep telling me they work like this and you don't have the evidence to back it up.
The rest on what you belive to make Tobi better then Kakashi with his sharingan is just an oppinion just as mine.
In regards to who has the better Sharingan mastery, I think it is evident that Kakashi has shown to be better at using the Sharingan. He is actually famous for his use of his Sharingan that's why he earned the moniker "Copy Ninja Kakashi". Even without inside knowledge of the Uchiha clan he gained Tomoe and eventually Mangekou Sharingan, creating Kamui in the process.
What's in Tobi's favour is his ability to control Kurama, yet we don't know exactly what this entails, and if Tobi really is an Uchiha or connected to Madara in some way he could easily have knowledge of how to perform this technique. That does not indicate mastery just knowledge.
Now if any of the information I used is inaccurate let me know but from what we have seen Kakashi has shown better mastery of the Sharingan than Tobi.
The only thing that Kakashi has done with Sharingan that tobi hasn't shown is copying jutsu.... which is a key component of the sharingan..... Meaning all sharingan users can do it. Tobi has more knowledge,better jutsu (and thats with just the basic sharingan, and more control. Kakashi only can compete in one are and that's Jutsu. Even i was to say Kakashi has better jutsu,(which he don't) he would still lost two out of three.... Making my statement correct.
Not quite right. Kakashi has shown not to just copy jutsu but to use his eye techniques to manipulate an opponent, in this case he manipulated Zabuza into believing he could read his mind.Quote:
The only thing that Kakashi has done with Sharingan that tobi hasn't shown is copying jutsu....
Also Kakashi has trained his Sharingan enough to attain Mangekou Sharingan and create an MS technique, something to my knowledge Tobi has not done.
.Quote:
which is a key component of the sharingan..... Meaning all sharingan users can do it
Agreed, yet Kakashi is the only Sharingan user that we have seen wielding three high level elements.
- Knowledge does not necessarily indicate mastery.Quote:
Tobi has more knowledge,better jutsu (and thats with just the basic sharingan, and more control.
- Better Sharingan ninjutsu? can you elaborate?
- Other than the Rinnegan he has only used Sharingan to my knowledge so what do you mean by and that's just the basic sharingan
- Can you elaborate on what you mean by control.
Incorrect, the only thing Tobi has shown that Kakashi cannot do to my knowledge is control Kurama, this does not demonstrate better Sharingan mastery just different knowledge.Quote:
Kakashi only can compete in one are and that's Jutsu. Even i was to say Kakashi has better jutsu,(which he don't) he would still lost two out of three.... Making my statement correct.
Better still in my opinion, mastery would come from not having Uchiha knowledge on the Sharingan and still attaining more Tomoe in his eye and then eventually gaining Mangekou Sharingan and creating Kamui in the process. All the while gaining fame as someone who has copied over 1000 techniques and from what we have seen in the manga he can utilise them very well, as I have stated no Uchiha that I know of has ever shown to use three high level elemental techniques.
Is this Kakashi vs. Tobi or Kakashi and Gai vs. Minato and Jiraiya?
Maybe so, but Tobi took control of Konan, and the Kyuubi. Which is more impressive to you?Quote:
Not quite right. Kakashi has shown not to just copy jutsu but to use his eye techniques to manipulate an opponent, in this case he manipulated Zabuza into believing he could read his mind.
Also Kakashi has trained his Sharingan enough to attain Mangekou Sharingan and create an MS technique, something to my knowledge Tobi has not done.
also true, but Tob's 3 tomoe sharingan is been Master to due abilities that make Kakashi MS useless against him.Not true. Sasuke and itachi has three elements of there own.Quote:
Agreed, yet Kakashi is the only Sharingan user that we have seen wielding three high level elements.
Knowledge is definitely one of the categories. Tobi knows much more about the sharingan then Kakashi,so he could never be on Tobi's level, if Kakashi don't know what to do next to attain another level.Quote:
Knowledge does not necessarily indicate mastery.
- Better Sharingan ninjutsu? can you elaborate?
- Other than the Rinnegan he has only used Sharingan to my knowledge so what do you mean by and that's just the basic sharingan
- Can you elaborate on what you mean by control.
They both have basic sharingan abilites, and Kakashi has one MS Jutsu. Tobi has space time, intangible, warping, and Izanagi. Thats what i mean by better sharingan Jutsu.
I mean kakashi don't have the body to control the Sharingan as good as Tobi. Tobi can control the Kyuubi with 3 tome sharingan, Kakashi would need MS, and that's still questionable.As i stated several times. Knowledge,control,and Jutsu are the categories. NO debate about Knowledge. Control... tobi controls the Kyuubi. That should be enough. Jutsu, Tobi has the most hax sharingan Jutsu out of all sharingan users. Why do you think he kept one sharingan eye?Quote:
Incorrect, the only thing Tobi has shown that Kakashi cannot do to my knowledge is control Kurama, this does not demonstrate better Sharingan mastery just different knowledge.
Its impossible to master something if you don't know every little detail about it. AS i stated above, Sasuke and Itachi has three elements of there own..... Besides that really has nothing to do with Mastering the sharingan... its one of the basic skills that comes with the sharingan.Quote:
Better still in my opinion, mastery would come from not having Uchiha knowledge on the Sharingan and still attaining more Tomoe in his eye and then eventually gaining Mangekou Sharingan and creating Kamui in the process. All the while gaining fame as someone who has copied over 1000 techniques and from what we have seen in the manga he can utilise them very well, as I have stated no Uchiha that I know of has ever shown to use three high level elemental techniques
Both Minato and Jiraiya are simply in a different league to Kakashi and Gai. In fact the gap in power/skill is so huge that both characters would solo this on their own
---------- Post added at 05:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:32 PM ----------
And what is all this talk about Kakashi & Tobi being equal in their sharingan usage?
@Prince Sasuke
Tobi used a genjutsu on Konan when she was dying, what is impressive about that? Controlling the Kyuubi is indeed impressive yet we don't know what exactly that entails. It could be Sharingan mastery or it could be just knowledge that top Uchiha are privy too.Quote:
Maybe so, but Tobi took control of Konan, and the Kyuubi. Which is more impressive to you?
Yes Tobi's abilities are good yet how do we know that his Space-Time jutsu comes from the Sharingan?Quote:
but Tob's 3 tomoe sharingan is been Master to due abilities that make Kakashi MS useless against him.
Two elements and a Kekkai Genkai. Kakashi has very high level Lightning, Water and Earth techniques and that's without having a Kekkai Genkai. My point of this was to show Kakashi's mastery of copying techniques to an extent that we have not seen matched in the manga.Quote:
Not true. Sasuke and itachi has three elements of there own.
I agree knowledge is a necessary component and to me Tobi definitely has more knowledge on the Sharingan than Kakashi, but the reason why I am saying that Kakashi is just as much a master than Tobi is, is because Kakashi upgraded and strengthened his own Sharingan without knowledge privy the Uchiha have, on his own. He became famous as the Copy-Nin and as I have stated no one, even Uchihas have not demonstrated using as much high level elemental techniques that he has.Quote:
Knowledge is definitely one of the categories. Tobi knows much more about the sharingan then Kakashi,so he could never be on Tobi's level, if Kakashi don't know what to do next to attain another level.
My take on that is:Quote:
They both have basic sharingan abilites, and Kakashi has one MS Jutsu. Tobi has space time, intangible, warping, and Izanagi. Thats what i mean by better sharingan Jutsu.
They both have basic Sharingan abilities yet Kakashi has shown to be more proficient at using his for combat such as copying techniques and manipulating opponents. Yes Kakashi has one MS jutsu and to my knowledge Tobi has none. Tobi has Space-Time, intangibility, warping and yet we don't know if that comes from the Sharingan. You mention Izanagi and better sharingan Jutsu which I completely agree with, Kakashi has shown nothing that can compare with Izanagi, yet I'm debating who is the better Sharingan master rather than who has the better technique and to me that could go to Kakashi since he is renowned for using his Sharingan and upgraded and bettered it without being a a member of The Uchiha Clan and without knowledge the Uchiha have.
Tobi has more knowledge, he knows how to control the Kyuubi, he knows how to use Izanagi. Does this translate to better mastery though? I am by no means certain that Kakashi is more of a master than Tobi, yet from what we have seen no one has shown to be as famous for copying techniques, he manipulated and controlled Zabuza into believing that he could mind read and from being a non Uchiha gaining MS is amazing as only a handful of Uchiha have achieved it. So does Kakashi's lack of inside Uchiha knowledge make him inferior to Tobi or the fact that he has excelled with the Sharingan yet not being an Uchiha make him more of a master?Quote:
Knowledge,control,and Jutsu are the categories. NO debate about Knowledge. Control... tobi controls the Kyuubi. That should be enough. Jutsu, Tobi has the most hax sharingan Jutsu out of all sharingan users. Why do you think he kept one sharingan eye?
@Kay3795
Not really, Guy only if he is not in Gate Mode. Kakashi has shown himself to be Kage level so that would put him on the level of Jiraiya and Minato. Base level Guy not so much yet with 7 gates open Jiraiya nor Minato would solo him maybe even the contrary.Quote:
Both Minato and Jiraiya are simply in a different league to Kakashi and Gai. In fact the gap in power/skill is so huge that both characters would solo this on their own
Tobi still put Konan in a mind control Genjutsu to get what he wanted. WE don't kneed to know t details of how he is doing it,all we need to know is that Tobi is doing Something Kakashi can't do... Whetehr is lack of Mastery or Knowledge. That's still a + for Tobi and a - for Kakashi.Quote:
Tobi used a genjutsu on Konan when she was dying, what is impressive about that? Controlling the Kyuubi is indeed impressive yet we don't know what exactly that entails. It could be Sharingan mastery or it could be just knowledge that top Uchiha are privy too.
Cause it comes from his sharingan eye the one he decided to keep with the rinnengan. Sharingan users have never you Jutsu from there eye unless its a sharngan jutsu.Quote:
Yes Tobi's abilities are good yet how do we know that his Space-Time jutsu comes from the Sharingan?
What do you think the Sharingan is? Kekkai Genkai. Still dosen't change the fact that Sasuke,and Itchi has three element just like Kakashi. Kakashi couldn't copying anything without his Kekkai Genkai,and as i stated before copying technique is something that every sharingan.I guess that's why that don't impress me as much.Quote:
Two elements and a Kekkai Genkai. Kakashi has very high level Lightning, Water and Earth techniques and that's without having a Kekkai Genkai. My point of this was to show Kakashi's mastery of copying techniques to an extent that we have not seen matched in the manga.
Kakashi may not have had certain knowledge on how to gain MS, but its not like you can Gain MS from just traing hard. Its a few special events that need to occur to gain MS, so forgive me for not seeing this as a impressive feat, when there's no training involve to attain it. However, Kakashi did train to master it, which is a impressive feat. If the subject was all about copying jutsu, then i would agree with you, but its not. Even if Uchihas haven't demonstrated the high level elements(which they have) like Kakashi, what does that have to do with Sharingan Mastery? That only proves what a great shinobi Kakashi is, but it have nothing to do with Kakashi being on Tobi's level when comparing the sharingan.Quote:
I agree knowledge is a necessary component and to me Tobi definitely has more knowledge on the Sharingan than Kakashi, but the reason why I am saying that Kakashi is just as much a master than Tobi is, is because Kakashi upgraded and strengthened his own Sharingan without knowledge privy the Uchiha have, on his own. He became famous as the Copy-Nin and as I have stated no one, even Uchihas have not demonstrated using as much high level elemental techniques that he has.
This has nothing to with a battle so it only proves that Kakashi like to use his sharinga to copy techniques. Like i explain earlier, One don't gain MS form training hard, special events must occur. Tobi haven't experience the special events to attain MS.Quote:
They both have basic Sharingan abilities yet Kakashi has shown to be more proficient at using his for combat such as copying techniques and manipulating opponents. Yes Kakashi has one MS jutsu and to my knowledge Tobi has none.
The only one can't be proven is the intangibility. The other jutsu ave been shown to come from his eye.Quote:
Tobi has Space-Time, intangibility, warping and yet we don't know if that comes from the Sharingan.
Kkashi is renowned for using the sharingan to COPY jutsu. Maybe we have different categories. MY three is Control Knowledge Jutsu. What are yours? Everything else i've covered in a above post.Quote:
You mention Izanagi and better sharingan Jutsu which I completely agree with, Kakashi has shown nothing that can compare with Izanagi, yet I'm debating who is the better Sharingan master rather than who has the better technique and to me that could go to Kakashi since he is renowned for using his Sharingan and upgraded and bettered it without being a a member of The Uchiha Clan and without knowledge the Uchiha have.
Yes unless you have another three catrogries you want to use.Quote:
Tobi has more knowledge, he knows how to control the Kyuubi, he knows how to use Izanagi. Does this translate to better mastery though?
Yes but Every sharingan user can copy techniques, Its one of the main component to the sharingan. Controlling Zabuza or controling the Kyuubi, Controling the Kyuubi is much more impressive. It definitely don't make him more of a master. Tobi has more knowledge about the sharingan, giving him a advantage over Kakashi. example: Izanagi. Don't you think if Kakashi had the knowledge on this jutsu he could perform it? I definitely thanks so, but he don't. That's giving Tobi + and Kakashi a -.Quote:
I am by no means certain that Kakashi is more of a master than Tobi, yet from what we have seen no one has shown to be as famous for copying techniques, he manipulated and controlled Zabuza into believing that he could mind read and from being a non Uchiha gaining MS is amazing as only a handful of Uchiha have achieved it. So does Kakashi's lack of inside Uchiha knowledge make him inferior to Tobi or the fact that he has excelled with the Sharingan yet not being an Uchiha make him more of a master?
@Prince Sasuke
I will try to cover all the points let me know if I missed anything.
Tobi has showed better techniques than Kakashi, yet to me, it's still undetermined whether that's knowledge from being an Uchiha or just a master of the Sharingan.
Yes the Sharingan is a Kekkai Genkai you missed my point though. My point was to demonstrate Kakashi's mastery in copying techniques to the point were he could use three high level elements. Sasuke and Itachi can use two elements and a Kekkai Genkai, Kekkai Genkai cannot be copied thus my point remains.
On Kakashi attaining MS, we don't know how he gained MS so we can't say what he did or did not do to obtain it.
On the categories for being a a master, I don't completely agree. We are debating, to my knowledge, who has better mastery, that's not to say they are not both masters of the Sharingan.
Essentially my argument boils down to this:
Is the one with the better mastery of the Sharingan the one who already has information on it, who's clan is known for the use of it or the person with no knowledge of it and has surpassed the majority of the Uchiha's clans users, with the exception a minor few.
Weather its being a Uchiha or just having more Knowledge is still two advantages.Quote:
Originally Posted by vanyar
Kakashi having three elements don't make him be a better sharingan user. A shinobi can't copy affinites.
Manga/databook shows two ways to attain, so its fe to assume Kakashi gain his MS from one of those ways.
I agree they both are masters of the sharingan.I just believe that Tobi is on a higer level.
Tobi has better Mastery mainly because he has shown greater feats, better jutsu,and more Knowledge. Knowledge is the main reason why Kashi is not on Tobi's level.
@M3J
We are debating if Kakashi can use his sharingan on Tobi's level in a fight (at least on my part).
@Prince Sasuke
Spoiler show
What kind of level? What level does Tobi have?
Kakashi can do genjutsu (he did it to Zabuza and Root following Naruto), he can copy ninjutsu and apparently taijutsu, and he can predict, if I recall. We saw Tobi use genjutsu on two Root guarding Danzo and I'm assuming he predicted Minato's reflex strike and Raikage's speed blitz punch.
The only difference is that Tobi was able to put Kyuubi in a genjutsu. We never saw Kakashi try that.
In any case, it's gonna be hard for Kakashi and Gai to beat Minato and Jiraiya. Both have good defense, Jiraiya has great offense, and Minato has the speed and reflexes.