Tokugawa vs Yukimura

Not counting the guys with self multiliation/mutiliate other moves, I'd say most people in POT at least seems to enjoy tennis. You can even argue it might be fun to abuse your opponents. So no I don't think 'have fun' is really that hard to do once you know the trick.

The first two doors are achieved by talent + hard work. For example Chitose says while exploring Muga he hooks himself up to all kinds of machine and take himself to the limit of his physical ability to try to figure out what lies behind. In light of this, it's possible that everyone assumes that since first two door = hard work + talent, the last door must require even more hard work and talent, but of course the more you work toward TnK the more you're away from it because the key is to enjoy tennis.

So in original POT, before Nanjirou come out and explain the secret I can see why nobody was able to do it. If Tezuka, Sanada, and Yukimura are supposed to be representative of the top tennis players in POT that you'd model your career after, then certainly you'd never come close to TnK while trying to play tennis like them, as there is absolutely nothing fun about the way they play tennis.

But since Nanjirou revealed the big secret, I don't see how the guys who already do seem to enjoy tennis (Akutagawa is an obvious example, but plenty other exists) won't just go 'whoa that's all I have to do to be invinicible? Awesome!' and then you suddenly have TnKs all over the place.

TnK is probably a main character special bailout, so that's another reason why we won't just see any random guy have it. But there's absolutely nothing hard about 'have fun' if you know that's the secret. I'm assuming, of course, that after Nanjirou revealed the secret the word gets around so it's just something only the guys present at the match would know.

Notice the commonalities between Tezuka and Ryoma before they achieved TMnK. They unlocked HJnK and SKnK, seem like a coincidence? I don't think so. Unlocking the first two doors is probably a prerequisite for TMnK.

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Originally Posted by Fuji Shusuke

Notice the commonalities between Tezuka and Ryoma before they achieved TMnK. They unlocked HJnK and SKnK, seem like a coincidence? I don't think so. Unlocking the first two doors is probably a prerequisite for TMnK.

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The problem is that the only guy who really knows how to get to TMnK, Nanjirou, said that is not the case. Nowhere in his explanation at the end of POT does he even mention HJnK or SKnK. It's literally 'everyone can do it as long as you believe!'

I mean sure, anybody can see that the guys who eventually learn TMnK indeed follows the pattern described, but as long as Nanjirou remains POT's authority on TMnK, his word stands. Maybe one of the Japanese coaches will eventually offer an updated explanation of TMnK, but right now we got only one expert (Nanjirou) so whatever he says by definition has to be true. For all I know Nanjirou could be drunk at that time and just made up some stuff, but until a better authority comes along he's the only authority we got.

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Originally Posted by Fuji Shusuke

Notice the commonalities between Tezuka and Ryoma before they achieved TMnK. They unlocked HJnK and SKnK, seem like a coincidence? I don't think so. Unlocking the first two doors is probably a prerequisite for TMnK.

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Yes, probably that and high base stats, otherwise, a player like Jirou can just open Tenimuhou but won't do him any good as his stats would be lower than high tier players. You need high stats first and probably the two doors to open it.

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Originally Posted by LetalHawk

Yes, probably that and high base stats, otherwise, a player like Jirou can just open Tenimuhou but won't do him any good as his stats would be lower than high tier players. You need high stats first and probably the two doors to open it.

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But since TMnK represents the optimal playing you could be at your current stats, it's not like there's a better outcome. Again TMnK doesn't make you invinicbile. Nanjirou will definitely still beat Ryoma with TnK. Nanjirou clearly stated it's entirely possible to lose with TMnK if your base stat is low enough with the 'everyone starts at TMnK' quote. And if you're at the state of TMnK, you wouldn't care about losing anyway. And if Akutagawa's base stat is just so low that he can never beat a top tier character even with TMnK, then that's just life. Someone who's mastered TMnK wouldn't care about these things. If not being the best tennis player ever bothers you, then you're already not going to learn TMnK because you're putting winning above fun.

I think nanjirou said that everyone can get TnK , but he didnt say how to do it. he just gave one part of the formula, that is .... you need to have fun feeling for tennis. might have misquoted but its something close to that.

also back to discussion.
I'd like to think that Tokugawa on a level close or far above yukimura. but since we have no extra info ffrom the manga,
yuki wins due to yips. unless toku can dispell or overcome yips, which we know even other HSers are subject to the effects of yips like Fuwa,

then its Yukimura's win.

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Originally Posted by ashore

I think nanjirou said that everyone can get TnK , but he didnt say how to do it. he just gave one part of the formula, that is .... you need to have fun feeling for tennis. might have misquoted but its something close to that.

also back to discussion.
I'd like to think that Tokugawa on a level close or far above yukimura. but since we have no extra info ffrom the manga,
yuki wins due to yips. unless toku can dispell or overcome yips, which we know even other HSers are subject to the effects of yips like Fuwa,

then its Yukimura's win.

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TnK is more of a state of being, and a weak player with TnK is still a relatively weak player. Nanjirou is undoubtedly still way stronger than Ryoma with TnK, so does that mean Nanjirou has a more powerful TnK? No. TnK is just TnK. It doesn't matter if you're a beginner, Ryoma, or Nanjirou, if you got TnK you got TnK. Depending on what your skill level is you could be unstoppable or still pretty weak. At any rate anybody who truly has TnK wouldn't care about power. Nanjirou is the #1 player in the world but he presumably still has fun playing against guys who absolutely no chance of beating him, because he's mastered TnK so he can always have fun. Likewise even the worst player in the world, if he has TnK, can always have fun playing against anyone else, even if he never wins, and the fact that he's the worst player in the world should not affect him because TnK doesn't care about winning/losing.

Back to the topic on hand, Tokugawa is said to have a similar aura as Yukimura, so I take that to mean he has similar characteristics and since his base stats is way higher, there's no matchup issues. You could say some of the 10-baller can be mentally weak and be affected by yips, but Tokugawa is basically described as Yukimura+.

where is the source are you using , that says tokugawa is a yukimura +? and has a similar aura.

we heard kirihara say that tokugawa gave a stare that froze him like yukimura, but it dont mean he can do yips on the opponent similar to yukimura.
yukimura's yips dont depend on looking at the eyes of someone ( an assump[tion i once advocated for) , since it was said by Puri pair.

also this technique of yukimuras appears mental, even if u can return 10 balls,, it doesnt mean you can overcome yips regardless of stats, except maybe mental. or as of now, its unproven.

also assuming HSers have all better stats is ridculous and unfair vs MSers. people's stats are scattered. and they excel
in some areas than others. your reasoning can only be verfied in future matches of tokugawa and the top 4 of Genius 10 vs yukimura.

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Originally Posted by ashore

where is the source are you using , that says tokugawa is a yukimura +? and has a similar aura.

we heard kirihara say that tokugawa gave a stare that froze him like yukimura, but it dont mean he can do yips on the opponent similar to yukimura.
yukimura's yips dont depend on looking at the eyes of someone ( an assump[tion i once advocated for) , since it was said by Puri pair.

also this technique of yukimuras appears mental, even if u can return 10 balls,, it doesnt mean you can overcome yips regardless of stats, except maybe mental. or as of now, its unproven.

also assuming HSers have all better stats is ridculous and unfair vs MSers. people's stats are scattered. and they excel
in some areas than others. your reasoning can only be verfied in future matches of tokugawa and the top 4 of Genius 10 vs yukimura.

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Yips is caused by people getting intimidated by Yukimura's style. Kirihara has the same reaction when looking into Tokugawa. It can be assumed Tokugawa has the same 'intimidation' factor as Yukimura, and by the virtue of being a top tier character you'd have to assume his 'intimidation' factor is greater than that of Yukimura's so he's not going to get intimidated by a lesser technique. No they never actually played each other but then in that case you'll never come to any conclusion since most matchups are hypothetical.

Yes there are specific matchup counters like World of Ice counters Sanada's style, which in term is countered by Tezuka Zone, but they mention that in these specific matchups. For example, none of the top tier characters are bothered by Tezuka Zone (it's at best an annoying technique to a top tier character) but it shuts down World of Ice and even Atobe Kingdom (doesn't matter what Atobe sees if he can't hit the ball there). Since we're not told of any specific property of yips you've to assume a more powerful character with similar property must be able to overcome it.

So far as stats go, no middle schooler has a >5 stat on anything, not even Tezuka or Atobe, and we've already seen 7 on Irie. The court 3 guys which turn out to be fodders for G11-20 have total in the range of 18-19, which is same as Tezuka's stats pre TnK. So it's reasonable to assume the top HSers start with insanely good stats. Just look at Irie's stats: 1/2/6/6/7. He has 3 categories above any middle schooler stat so far and even if you say he's some kind of mental/tech specialist, there are a lot of specialists in middle schoolers too and so far none of them has a >5 rating on anything. Tezuka, after all, only has a 5 in tech pre TnK, and he's at least #2 in tech out of middle schooler (only Yukimura can possibly have higher tech, and I'd argue yips belongs more in the mental category).

ok just checking on sources. you are using reasoning not direct proof, for your arguments.

For now, i have to disagree on " tokugawa is a yukimura +? and has a similar aura."
since i require real proof for that assumption.

we'll check future stats and matches when provided by konomi.
thx

The reason why characters who already love tennis like Akugatawa and Kintaro didn't actually achieve PoP despite being closest to it is because they didn't attain the perfect balance between the "Zone State" and the "Peak Experience." The Pair Puris say that attaining this midway balance between the two is the key to PoP.

LOL it's funny how you guys interpret TMNK, you guys kept referring to what Nanjiroh said at the end of the nationals which was supposedly be the end of the series, it's like an ending type of deal. You could basically just neglect it but even if you say it's something a person can achieve, not everyone and anyone can achieve it, it's those types of things where you think it's simple but not yet simple, when you think it's impossible it actually is simple. It's like Micheal Jordan playing basketball, he can just say, Hey I love basketball and I don't even do anything crazy I just play the way I play, that's his TMNK, but is it that easy to play basketball like MJ? TMNK is the pinnacle of perfection also literally meaning improving all your stats beyond your limits, What I'm trying to say here is, Tokugawa vs Yukimura would be a close match and honestly if it were to happen , I'd think Konomi would make Yukimura win simply for the fact that Yukimura would only lose to TMNK Echizen, cause if Yukimura lost to more ppl other than Echizen then it's pointless and will drop Yukimura's God of Child or Child of GOd stats down, while Tokugawa got slapped by the Number one of Japan team. In analyzing the statistics so far, yes Tokugawa seems stronger than Yukimura because he can hit more than 8 balls or whatever it was and he did destroyed echizen, but like someone mentioned echizen might not been able to use TMNK, maybe he can only unleash it in certain situations. In the New POT when Tokugawa said Tezuka has more potential or was it number 2 I forgot the anime and manga is confusing me, that's before Tezuka achieved TMNK, I wouldn't praise too much for Tokugawa for the fact that he got slaughtered by Number 1, why are you guys arguing about Yukimura vs Tokugawa if he beats Yukimura than no one can beat the Number 1 guy, Tokugawa trained etc.. but Number 1 guy is going around the world or overseas to Fight others and gain even more experience lMFAOO Tokugawa cant even block a serve from the number 1 guy or even Echizen, Ryoga had to save them LMFAOOO,