Re: Unohana's role in current arc
SS4
They were not familiar with this type of Quincy, so there the first argument is out.
The SS was in the majority and all enemies occupied in FKT, here the enemy is winning most battles and occupying most captain's. So it's a very different situation again too. Healing Ichigo in a confined place(dangai) and healing characters while those few are distracted is likely not possible in that situation. Losing her as an asset would have been a disaster to the G13.
It's Kubo, he would have found something interesting for every letter, don't you think so too?
Yamamoto and Kenpachi didn't take out half of them, please reread the Manga. That's just not true. If the rest would be as strong as the one Shunsui faced, many of the captain's could have been taken care off or trapped very easily. Captain's who need their bankai to fight offensively are always in danger of being foddernized with those medaillons. Not only were they occupied, most were also on the losing side looking at any non Kenpachi/Yama encounter.
HOW exactly should they have been prepared?! Only a couple days after they were invaded without the knowledge how they were capability to do so, , with no solution to the medaillon, with a Quincy based enemy, but still so very different and likely much stronger than before? How?
Sorry but your post is missing the brains too. I'm ready for a counter and some answers to the last question. :-)
Re: Unohana is being REALLY useless right now
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SuperSaiyan4
There are 26 letters of the alphabet, but the manga states that there were may be ~16 individuals.
I think that was a translation bug, and it was supposed to have been 6 - the number of SR who were said to be at least on par with captains (known since they were fighting captains).
Re: Unohana's role in current arc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Schabrak
SS4
They were not familiar with this type of Quincy, so there the first argument is out.
The SS was in the majority and all enemies occupied in FKT, here the enemy is winning most battles and occupying most captain's. So it's a very different situation again too. Healing Ichigo in a confined place(dangai) and healing characters while those few are distracted is likely not possible in that situation. Losing her as an asset would have been a disaster to the G13.
It's Kubo, he would have found something interesting for every letter, don't you think so too?
Yamamoto and Kenpachi didn't take out half of them, please reread the Manga. That's just not true. If the rest would be as strong as the one Shunsui faced, many of the captain's could have been taken care off or trapped very easily. Captain's who need their bankai to fight offensively are always in danger of being foddernized with those medaillons. Not only were they occupied, most were also on the losing side looking at any non Kenpachi/Yama encounter.
HOW exactly should they have been prepared?! Only a couple days after they were invaded without the knowledge how they were capability to do so, , with no solution to the medaillon, with a Quincy based enemy, but still so very different and likely much stronger than before? How?
Sorry but your post is missing the brains too. I'm ready for a counter and some answers to the last question. :-)
1. 100 years ago, people were simply disappearing without known reason. Regardless of whether these quincies have new abilities, shinigami are being mowed down in a more traditional manner than by an invisible bacteria that spreads unsuspectingly. This is no different than a typical battlefield as opposed to some quarantine zone.
2. Keyword: "occupied". Regardless of whether the captains were losing, the enemy was occupied. Hence we see some soldiers that were left injured with no sign of battle in the immediate vicinity and the 4th barracks remained untouched (at least mostly). Moreover, the numbers of sternritters was limited (ch 499). There was enough opportunity for the injured to be retrieved without risk of ambush or interruption.
2. Yama took out 4. He also had Bach and the other blond guy occupied. Kenpachi took out 3. That's 9 that are preoccupied right now (if there were 16 total, then there are less than half of what Unohana has to be concerned with). The rest are fighting captains. Now there might have been a translation error when they said there are 6 or 16 individuals with powers equal to that of or greater than captains. Either case, it supports my point that Unohana COULD have done something. Either case, the rest other than 6 or 16 are weaker than captains and they are already preoccupied with other fights.
3. I wouldn't call the name kobo gave the sternritters "interesting" but rather gratuitous English.
4. This is a war. The medics corp should not be concerned with directly combatting the enemy. They should be prepared to heal and support those that do fight in the field of battle to minimize casualties. Considering that this is an organization whose SOLE and ONLY purpose is to protect soul society, two days should have been more than enough. Even if they did not have all the info on what the sternritters were capable of, a leader of 1000 years of experience should have known to prepare better.
I have to say that your arguments, themselves are rather superficial.
Re: Unohana's role in current arc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SuperSaiyan4
1. 100 years ago, people were simply disappearing without known reason. Regardless of whether these quincies have new abilities, shinigami are being mowed down in a more traditional manner than by an invisible bacteria that spreads unsuspectingly. This is no different than a typical battlefield as opposed to some quarantine zone.
2. Keyword: "occupied". Regardless of whether the captains were losing, the enemy was occupied. Hence we see some soldiers that were left injured with no sign of battle in the immediate vicinity and the 4th barracks remained untouched (at least mostly). Moreover, the numbers of sternritters was limited (ch 499). There was enough opportunity for the injured to be retrieved without risk of ambush or interruption.
2. Yama took out 4. He also had Bach and the other blond guy occupied. Kenpachi took out 3. That's 9 that are preoccupied right now (if there were 16 total, then there are less than half of what Unohana has to be concerned with). The rest are fighting captains. Now there might have been a translation error when they said there are 6 or 16 individuals with powers equal to that of or greater than captains. Either case, it supports my point that Unohana COULD have done something. Either case, the rest other than 6 or 16 are weaker than captains and they are already preoccupied with other fights.
3. I wouldn't call the name kobo gave the sternritters "interesting" but rather gratuitous English.
4. This is a war. The medics corp should not be concerned with directly combatting the enemy. They should be prepared to heal and support those that do fight in the field of battle to minimize casualties.
Considering that this is an organization whose SOLE and ONLY purpose is to protect soul society, two days should have been more than enough. Even if they did not have all the info on what the sternritters were capable of, a leader of 1000 years of experience should have known to prepare better.
I have to say that your arguments, themselves are rather superficial.
I don't know what you are trying to express with 1., my point stands, yours is empty. Yeah it's a battlefield with enemies who have unknown abilities for which SS has no solution for.
The bolded part is nothing but assumption, we don't know if there was a big enough window to keep Unohana and the squad safe or not. I said the captains were occupied, not all SR, as could be seen with Shaz Domino going around destroying things, just as As Nodt or the Mohawk guy did as well. Let's get things straight.
Yama took out Discroll and Royd, nobody else is confirmed dead, one even shown healthy enough to order others around again. I doubt Kenpachi fought all three at the same time, from the very begnning, just as Yamamoto only took them out for the duration of the fight and only really late into the war. There are at least 16 Quincy, not 16 in total. A third of the shinigami force was dead within seven minutes, there couldn't have been much to occupy those Quincy with, so there were likely many free to do as they wanted to.
Unohana obviously could have done "something", there was never a question about that. The problem was how her going out would affect herself and the division.
Each one had a different power with a fitting letter, call it gratuitous if you like. Discroll had the problem to encounter motherfucking Yama, we don't know what the question was about, Loyd and Royd had some fearsome power. The Roar was random, but was useless against Kenpachi.
How exactly were they supposed to heal somebody if there was no one there to stop those guys from slaughtering everybody anyway?
Mayuri said it wasn't enough, that weights more than anything you can come up with. Facts are facts. Hey the each division has it's purpose, doesn't enable them to do achieve their goals within such a small timeframe.
I'm still waiting for a HOW, but I doubt you can come up with something satisfying.
Re: Unohana is being REALLY useless right now
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Notak
Look at Captains, they have plenty of responsibility too, yet we have people like Kenpachi or Hitsugaya in that position.
They're human too
Well, this statement make me feel a little weird. I mean, I understand your point, but...
They aren't human.. They're Shinigami. Ichigo is human.
Re: Unohana is being REALLY useless right now
Quote:
Originally Posted by
-Ken-
Well, this statement make me feel a little weird. I mean, I understand your point, but...
They aren't human. They're human soul at best.
Not only that, they are strong assets, that are older than any living human... and some of the most capable fighters of G13, so the pros exceed the cons.
Re: Unohana is being REALLY useless right now
Quote:
Originally Posted by
-Ken-
Well, this statement make me feel a little weird. I mean, I understand your point, but...
They aren't human.. They're Shinigami. Ichigo is human.
Not sure what you mean....
Im saying they look like humans, and have feelings like them. Even if they are literally shinigami souls
Their very nature is quite human, except that their traditions and upbringings are different. And the obvious reiatsu :p
Re: Unohana's role in current arc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Schabrak
I don't know what you are trying to express with 1., my point stands, yours is empty. Yeah it's a battlefield with enemies who have unknown abilities for which SS has no solution for.
The bolded part is nothing but assumption, we don't know if there was a big enough window to keep Unohana and the squad safe or not. I said the captains were occupied, not all SR, as could be seen with Shaz Domino going around destroying things, just as As Nodt or the Mohawk guy did as well. Let's get things straight.
Yama took out Discroll and Royd, nobody else is confirmed dead, one even shown healthy enough to order others around again. I doubt Kenpachi fought all three at the same time, from the very begnning, just as Yamamoto only took them out for the duration of the fight and only really late into the war. There are at least 16 Quincy, not 16 in total. A third of the shinigami force was dead within seven minutes, there couldn't have been much to occupy those Quincy with, so there were likely many free to do as they wanted to.
Unohana obviously could have done "something", there was never a question about that. The problem was how her going out would affect herself and the division.
Each one had a different power with a fitting letter, call it gratuitous if you like. Discroll had the problem to encounter motherfucking Yama, we don't know what the question was about, Loyd and Royd had some fearsome power. The Roar was random, but was useless against Kenpachi.
How exactly were they supposed to heal somebody if there was no one there to stop those guys from slaughtering everybody anyway?
Mayuri said it wasn't enough, that weights more than anything you can come up with. Facts are facts. Hey the each division has it's purpose, doesn't enable them to do achieve their goals within such a small timeframe.
I'm still waiting for a HOW, but I doubt you can come up with something satisfying.
1. As in Quincy still need to physically fight the shinigami to kill them while whatever was happening 100 years ago was making spirits disappear without apparent reason. Different situations.
2. Sure there are a bunch of panels showing the Sternritters paving their way through soul society. But we also see buildings where there are no signs of battle and some of the survivors that were left alone in locations that do not seem to be in the immediate vicinity of battles taking place such as the 4th barracks. And you mentioning Shaz Domino and the others? They are already preoccupied with whatever they are doing at the moment. That's the point. Why not take advantage of this opportunity?
3. Kenpachi fighting those 3 simultaneously or not is irrelevant to my initial argument, because I was discussing recovering ranked officers that got injured after kenpachi got finished with them and the time window when Yama began fighting. Regardless of whether the 3 that attacked Yama survived or not, the fact that discroll got burned to ashes from one swing and that they are not shown again much later makes it improbable that they were in any position to do anything more significant other than commanding the lower class soldiers that arrived after yama's death.
4. Where did you get "seven minutes" and a "third?" Even if that number is accurate, the sternritters would still be occupied by trying to get rid of the other two-thirds, no? As for the "at least 16" comment, judging by the fact that the number of Quincy we did get to see so far did not exceed 16, I am more inclined to believe that the number isn't that much higher than what we are told. There is no concrete reason that there should be one soldier for every letter of the alphabet, seeing that there were 2 individuals that share the letter Y. Besides, the very fact that there are places that the Quincy did not attack so far and the injured that are left alone indicates that their numbers are limited and are not running around unhindered to the point that the 4th squadron should be concerned about being ambushed while retrieving the injured.
5. So I am saying there should have been some movement to retrieve the injured while the enemy that have done the damage have moved on. We have seen several individuals that could have been saved earlier because of this opportunity.
Besides, not all captains were occupied. Unohana wasn't doing anything <_<. Mayuri is excusable for doing research. Rose became available after his opponent went for Yama.
Btw when did mayuri say that "it wasn't enough". What does "it" refer to? Couldn't the 4th squads MIA status the very reason why the 13 divisions' efforts weren't "enough", if that was Mayuri was referring to?
So the argument boils down to whether that time window/opportunity was enough for the Unohana to do anything. I say that it should have been judging by:
1. 4th barracks wasn't in immediate danger
2. The injured captains and VCs don't seem to be near the enemies that had done the damage
3. The other sternritters are preoccupied doing other things
4. That's her sole and only job. Yama giving out some nonsensical order, telling a support unit NOT to support in a war, is not justified
---------- Post added at 09:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:10 PM ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Schabrak
I don't know what you are trying to express with 1., my point stands, yours is empty. Yeah it's a battlefield with enemies who have unknown abilities for which SS has no solution for.
The bolded part is nothing but assumption, we don't know if there was a big enough window to keep Unohana and the squad safe or not. I said the captains were occupied, not all SR, as could be seen with Shaz Domino going around destroying things, just as As Nodt or the Mohawk guy did as well. Let's get things straight.
Yama took out Discroll and Royd, nobody else is confirmed dead, one even shown healthy enough to order others around again. I doubt Kenpachi fought all three at the same time, from the very begnning, just as Yamamoto only took them out for the duration of the fight and only really late into the war. There are at least 16 Quincy, not 16 in total. A third of the shinigami force was dead within seven minutes, there couldn't have been much to occupy those Quincy with, so there were likely many free to do as they wanted to.
Unohana obviously could have done "something", there was never a question about that. The problem was how her going out would affect herself and the division.
Each one had a different power with a fitting letter, call it gratuitous if you like. Discroll had the problem to encounter motherfucking Yama, we don't know what the question was about, Loyd and Royd had some fearsome power. The Roar was random, but was useless against Kenpachi.
How exactly were they supposed to heal somebody if there was no one there to stop those guys from slaughtering everybody anyway?
Mayuri said it wasn't enough, that weights more than anything you can come up with. Facts are facts. Hey the each division has it's purpose, doesn't enable them to do achieve their goals within such a small timeframe.
I'm still waiting for a HOW, but I doubt you can come up with something satisfying.
Another very important fact from Unohana herself.
In the latest chapter when they question whether the 4th squad and Unohana could have done more, Unohana said that they stayed put because Yama told them to do so. There is no mention of whether it was possible to help out during battle; it is indicating that this (the dangers/risks posed by entering the battlefield) was not the problem that stopped the 4th squad from helping out. It was because Yama told them not to.
So in conclusion:
Unohana was capable of helping out, but did not do so because Yama said so.
