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Thread: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

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    Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    Hello, I need a bit of a help with this sentence. A girl is speaking.
    She can become little, she can become adult, she can travel in different times and places...
    She's trying to explain why but she just complicate things. Then she says:

    …「時」はわたしをなげかそうとして
    いこいを盗んだりとどまらせたりする。

    "Time, in an attempt to grieve for me, steals my repose and stops".

    ?
    Last edited by Guren no heya kara; May 20, 2013 at 01:15 PM.

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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    I am not really sure ... I am not poetic at all.

    Anyway, you don't need "for" before "me." I think I would translate いこい being the object for verbs 盗む(steal) and 留まらせる(retain).
    Last edited by mikkih; May 23, 2013 at 12:11 PM. Reason: added s
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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    I believe you may have made a minor mistake in transcription it seems very much like なげかそう is actually the verb 投げ返す (なげかそう in this circumstance)
    I'll highlight the pieces of the sentence for you, as it is made of three separate pieces (3 verbs).
    「時」はわたしをなげかえそうとして
    いこいを盗んだりとどまらせたりする

    Piece 1: toki wa watashi wo nagekaesou toshite
    Literal: About 'time', (it's) trying to throw me back...
    Translation: 'Time' is trying to return me (to my rightful place)

    Piece 2: ikoi wo musundari [...suru]
    Literal: Stealing rest
    Translation: Steals my rest
    Note: The /たり/ form of a verb is a sort of way to list verbs that are alternatives, e.g, 飲んだり食べたりしてください = Drink and/or eat please. It is a way to turn verbs into nouns and describe 'do this and/or that'. Most of all, it implies that other verbs are possible, just like using や instead of と when listing nouns.

    Piece 3: todomarasetari suru
    Literal: force to stop
    Translation: or holds me back
    Note: 'to stop' is the verb's meaning in dictionary form. In this conjugation, it is causative so its meaning becomes 'to make (x) stop'

    Overall, I hope you're not the copy and paste kind of learner, as I have given you a basic clue of how to dissect sentences and translate them. The full translation is 'Time is trying to return me, but it robs me of rest or holds me behind.' Not perfect translation and I hope you learn from seeing how I went about it, rather than just taking my words.

    By the way, most of the time, unless there's a comma, any word marked with を or が will only go with the next verb. These two sentences have different meanings and I've highlighted what the moon is doing:
    月が、輝くことを見る
    The moon looked at glittering things
    月が輝くことを見る
    [I/You/We/Someone] looked at the moon glittering
    Last edited by Aarowaim; May 23, 2013 at 04:14 PM.
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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    Please verify the original Japanese txt.

    なげかそう嘆かそう): grieve (someone)
    なげかそう with an extra え (投げ返そう): try to through back

    These 2 are completely different. The first one sounds fine as it is, but please check the original just in case.
    Last edited by mikkih; May 23, 2013 at 06:49 PM. Reason: added: as
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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    As you can see, it's なげかそう

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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    Man, I need a better dictionary >.<
    My dictionary doesn't have an entry for なげかそう, however, 嘆く has an entry. I've noticed how on occasion, an adjective will have そう replacing the い, so perhaps this is a situation of a suffix that I'm not familiar with. As you can see, you can't learn everything from dictionaries and grammar books. As with any language, you'll find yourself bumping into new ideas and information all the time. Language is such a vast thing because it is a tool used to express everything we can possibly experience and imagine.

    Anyways, seeing my previous example, you only need to modify the first piece to get the correct translation. The one thing to keep in mind is that として means 'to be trying towards'. To be honest, I'm a little bit interested in figuring out where that verb came from. Though I'm quite experienced, I am far from the most informed.
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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    You won't find nagekasou in dictionaries, because the verb is nagekasu. Here we have the form that we, in Italy, call B6+tosuru (B = base of the verb. The B6 is the ishikei, like miyou, kakou, tabeyou, oyogou, ganbarou and so on). Here it's simply a -te form to suspend a sentence and connect it to another one. But basically is "to try to do/to make an attempt to". So nageku is the normal verb, while nagekasu it's its...I dunno. Translating this manga I found a lot of verbs ending in -kasu. I think that maybe are some old japanese forms that remain in the current language, like beki/beshi/bekarazu/nu/zu/zaru/gotoku and so on. It's 1967 manga. I couldn't find half of them...but, I know what ugoku means and he has its ugokasu form too. So...I used that to determine that nagekasu (and the other ones) are the same.

    About todomarasetari: I think it's just "make to stop" and not "force". If it was "force" it would be todomaraseraretari or todomaraseretari (colloquial), basically a...I don't know how you call it in English but it's a causative-passive, a type of verb form I've found only a couple of times in my life. Like in 謹慎させられている男, "a man forced to house arrest". That I guess you'll probably put as "under house arrest"......

    Btw, I've noticed another thing while translating old manga: a lot of verbs that today have the ず in their reading, once they had づ (that's why I couldn't find any of those...). I guess that 続く and just a few others resist today, but sooner or later...
    Just some trivia.

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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    Something along with ...
    In an attempt to grieve/trouble me
    the Time steals/takes away and stops/stagnates my oasis

    留まらせる:
    I thought of using "stand still (留まる)" in "Time stands still"" but that didn't fit in very well. I prefer not to use "cease" which has a meaning of putting something to the end.
    Last edited by mikkih; Today at 08:52 AM. Reason: added /trouble

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    Re: Need a bit of a help with a sentence

    I'll "steal" from you that "takes away"
    I'll keep "grieve" and "stops" like I translated at the beginning.
    And "repose" too, with the meaining of calm, quietness, peace...

    "takes away and stops my peace"...uhm...

    "takes away my peace and stops"...are we sure that both verbs have ikoi fo object and not just the first one?

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