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Thread: Vizard bankai theory

  1. #1
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Hitsugaya_333's Avatar
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    Vizard bankai theory

    I'm posting this on behalf of wolfpreist of the Adult Swim Message Boards:

    What if Visard transformations are like obtaining shikai and bankai? Here's my thought process on this: when Ichigo first learned Zangetsu's name, he had to go into his inner world, granted he only talked to Zangetsu, but he went there. When he obtained the power to control his Inner Hollow he went to his inner world and had to fight him, so Ichigo is at Shikai Visard level. Now then, the cool part

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member gigantor21's Avatar
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    Re: Vizard bankai theory

    I agree in a general sense, since I've always thought that the Vizards would have a second form after materializing the mask. It'd be anticlimactic for the Vizards to have the power to beat fully released high-ranked Espada with just their masks alone.

    But I think that the Vizards already know about it, since they have much more experience with and knowledge about their powers. Not only that, but I don't think Kubo'll want to try and make the method for acquiring the release the exact same thing as with Bankai. And besides, Ichigo's already beaten Shirosaki. He didn't have to fight with Zangetsu to get Shikai, so the two cases aren't entirely comparable. My guess, and my hope, is that there'll be an entirely new method for acquiring the Vaizard release, since it'd be kind of boring to have a repeat of the Shirosaki-Ichigo fight on a different plane.

    Personally, I'd love for Ichigo to have Negacion and dimensional-hopping abilities.
    Last edited by gigantor21; April 07, 2007 at 11:02 PM.

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  3. #3
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    Re: Vizard bankai theory

    I dont think that it will necassarily work in that way, but perhaps its more like losing control. With the masks right now it is more like a vizard is just a shinigami with a huge tank of hollow nitrous, it isnt exactly a perfect combination of hollow and shinigami. What we see from the arrancar is much more like it.

    I think that if there was indeed a second hollow form it would be some kind of fusion between the hollow and shinigami forms, like what we saw battling the vizards when ichigo had to battle his inner hollow. Mentally I could guess that this would be both hollow ichigo and ichigo both with full mental control either fully conscious and working together or broken down to very simple objectives (e.g. KILL HIM!! ) , or perhaps it is like leting hollow ichigo take the wheel for a while and then drawing him back (either Voluntarily or essentially wrestling back control).

    Regardless of the way which it would happen it would most likely be only an extreme trump card, because both mentally and physically just putting on the mask still leaves a vizard's mind and body still well within their side of each vizards own personal shinigami-hollow tug of war, but by letting their body and then their mind become more hollow like they are letting themselves slide further into the middle giving their inner hollow more dominance, and of course in situations like that if they let their control slip their inner hollow will simply rip control from them completely.

  4. #4
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member gigantor21's Avatar
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    Re: Vizard bankai theory

    Quote Originally Posted by poopoomaru View Post
    Regardless of the way which it would happen it would most likely be only an extreme trump card, because both mentally and physically just putting on the mask still leaves a vizard's mind and body still well within their side of each vizards own personal shinigami-hollow tug of war, but by letting their body and then their mind become more hollow like they are letting themselves slide further into the middle giving their inner hollow more dominance, and of course in situations like that if they let their control slip their inner hollow will simply rip control from them completely.
    That's true. Handling the increase in the Hollow's presence alone would be a lot to deal with, considering how much trouble Ichigo had to go through just to get the mask in the first place. If it would work like Bankai, however, I would think that the second form would come through complete submission of the Hollow's control, which would let use all of their power yourself. I think that the control would only be an issue when they're learning to use the second form.

    I think that "union of instincts" you referred to fits in perfectly with the instinct that Doldooni and "Kenpachi" alluded to, though.

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  5. #5
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    Re: Vizard bankai theory

    Quote Originally Posted by gigantor21 View Post
    That's true. Handling the increase in the Hollow's presence alone would be a lot to deal with, considering how much trouble Ichigo had to go through just to get the mask in the first place. If it would work like Bankai, however, I would think that the second form would come through complete submission of the Hollow's control, which would let use all of their power yourself. I think that the control would only be an issue when they're learning to use the second form.

    I think that "union of instincts" you referred to fits in perfectly with the instinct that Doldooni and "Kenpachi" alluded to, though.
    True that most likely it would come through subjugation, however unlike a soul slayer , the ultimate goal of your inner hollow is to take control. So unlike Zangetsu, or any other soul slayer, who after subjugating never really fought against Ichigo's control, Ichigo's inner hollow will take any chance he can get to fight back and seize control. So it would be a problem every time he used it, not just when he was learning how , even though that probably would be worse than after he learns it.

  6. #6
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    Re: Vizard bankai theory

    That's a really nice idea. I read another theory a while back and I kinda like it.

    "Its about the difference in release-form between the Vizards and the Arrancars. Since Arrancars are hollows whom obtained the powers of the shinigami and thus their hollow side are more dominant. This would mean that they do not possess a 2nd stage of release (Bankai - Since the natural Espadas only have 1 stage of release.This case is still uknown whether the real Espadas possess a 2nd stage of release). but rather an unsual change in form & power when release. However, they can use their hollow powers to its full extend. The Vizards on the other hand. Since their shinigami side are more dominant, it would mean that they possess both shikai and bankai. However, since their shinigami side is more dominant, they can use their hollow powers but not to its full extend like the Arrancars. In Ichigo's case, he became a shinigami & a hollow simultaneously, this would mean both his shinigami & hollow side stays head to head (as in 50/50). So if this speculation/theory is true, it would mean that Ichigo (if undergo some intense training) would be able to use his hollow powers to its full extend. It would mean that he may possess an unusual release stage similar to that of the Arrancars'."

    Still only a speculation/theory. But it would be cool for Ichigo to have an Arrancar-like release form.
    Last edited by Lo0natick; April 08, 2007 at 09:09 PM.

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    Re: Vizard bankai theory

    I believe that the artifically created arrancars have a second release. In my mind it would make sense that the closer you are to 50/50 the more powers you can use for example shinji has shown that a vizard can fire a cero a cero is a menos move not just a normal hollow. using that principle its comcevable for maybe the top 3 or 4 espada to be able to use kido being that they are spawned from high level menos. also noitra (spelling??) has a zanpakto that looks a lot like a always released sword. could he have a bankai? hes obviously insanely powerful recall what ichigo looked like during vizard training a high level menos with a zanpakto (in bankai) anyway i hope i made sense but my point is if a vizard can use menos moves why wouldnt a near perfect arrancar have a bankai weve already seen that arrancar posses skills similar to shinpo so in my mind its totally plausable

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    Re: Vizard bankai theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Fuzzy View Post
    I believe that the artifically created arrancars have a second release. In my mind it would make sense that the closer you are to 50/50 the more powers you can use for example shinji has shown that a vizard can fire a cero a cero is a menos move not just a normal hollow. using that principle its comcevable for maybe the top 3 or 4 espada to be able to use kido being that they are spawned from high level menos. also noitra (spelling??) has a zanpakto that looks a lot like a always released sword. could he have a bankai? hes obviously insanely powerful recall what ichigo looked like during vizard training a high level menos with a zanpakto (in bankai) anyway i hope i made sense but my point is if a vizard can use menos moves why wouldnt a near perfect arrancar have a bankai weve already seen that arrancar posses skills similar to shinpo so in my mind its totally plausable
    Well, that one Espada, the one that replaced Grimmjow and fought with Hitsugaya (I forgot his name). He only had 1 stage of release. I don't know if he was artifically created or natural like the ex-Espadas.

  9. #9
    Celestial Belgian 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Koen's Avatar
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    Re: Vizard bankai theory

    I thin it's plausible, but aren't vaizards shinigami that were/are interested in obtaining hollow powers. Wouldn't it be just a bankai like shinigami have, like ichigo is doing now?

    But I think there's a potential to become more powerfull. Because within ichigo and the rest of the vaizards, there are two sided souls...
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  10. #10
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Silhouette's Avatar
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    Re: Vizard bankai theory

    I voted impossible

    The problem isn't in shirousaki lending his full power but rather in Ichigo's ability in sustaining such power. Besides Ichigo doesn't need to materialize his hollow to beat him and get his powers...he already did that without the materialization part..in the inner world of Ichigo.

    If Vizards have two levels of release, then Hiyori would've used it against Ichigo when he almost killed her before getting restrained by the vizards.
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  11. #11
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Richo's Avatar
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    Re: Vizard bankai theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Silhouette View Post
    I voted impossible

    The problem isn't in shirousaki lending his full power but rather in Ichigo's ability in sustaining such power. Besides Ichigo doesn't need to materialize his hollow to beat him and get his powers...he already did that without the materialization part..in the inner world of Ichigo.

    If Vizards have two levels of release, then Hiyori would've used it against Ichigo when he almost killed her before getting restrained by the vizards.
    if you know the history of bleach and most anime series, no other person except for the head character and his friends will NEVER go full power the first time cause its waste to them using so much power against a "weaker" person its been shown in all fights and with the best example Shigekuni Yamamoto-Genryūsai vs Jūshirō Ukitake and Shunsui Kyōraku as they did not go in shikai or bankai from the first moment as they knew they could not beat it with just their normal powers...

  12. #12
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    Re: Vizard bankai theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Silhouette View Post
    If Vizards have two levels of release, then Hiyori would've used it against Ichigo when he almost killed her before getting restrained by the vizards.
    Under that same logic Yammy wouldnt have a sword release since he didnt release it to stop Ichigo's sword from chopping off his arm. Or Grimmjaw for that matter for not using his to stop Tousen from cutting his arm off, or Ikkaku not having a bankai because he didnt use it against Ichigo when they first fought.


    One second she was fine, the next Ichigo exploded, she had her mask on , there was no way to know that with his hollow powers releasing that he would have that much more power then her, she would have had to transform in that the milisecond time between when she realized she was about to almost die and when she would actually got hit.

    I dont honestly see why it wouldnt be possible. With the hougyoku, which is supposed to make perfect hybrids of hollow and shinigami, the end result in its true form(arrancar sword release) is very much a both a physical and internal mix of hollow and shinigami, not just transforming into something that looks like a human.

    Since the middle is the same from no matter what side you started ont he shinigami-hollow spectrum, then a perfect mix of hollow and shinigami would look the same regardless of whether you started out as a hollow or as a shinigami.

    The biggest difference that I think is a very strong possibility is that whether or not this is a controlable thing from the shinigami point of view. That is whether or not any vizard could learn how to become a perfect mix. I most definatly think that a perfect mix or "vizard bankai" exists, but am not sure it is something that you could consider a part of a vizards aresenal in the sense that it is something they choose to have happen or have control over.

  13. #13
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Silhouette's Avatar
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    Wink Re: Vizard bankai theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Richo View Post
    if you know the history of bleach and most anime series, no other person except for the head character and his friends will NEVER go full power the first time cause its waste to them using so much power against a "weaker" person its been shown in all fights and with the best example Shigekuni Yamamoto-Genryūsai vs Jūshirō Ukitake and Shunsui Kyōraku as they did not go in shikai or bankai from the first moment as they knew they could not beat it with just their normal powers...
    True but my point is "why didn't the Hiyori power up once she found Ichigo isn't the weakers one?" the answer is simple , her hollow powers are like normal hollows thus they can't grow further than what they already are. For example, if Hiyori had Gillian hollow powers and Ichigo had Vasto Lorde one, then that's pretty much it...Hiyori can't increase her hollow powers to match Ichigo's.

    Quote Originally Posted by poopoomaru View Post
    Under that same logic Yammy wouldnt have a sword release since he didnt release it to stop Ichigo's sword from chopping off his arm. Or Grimmjaw for that matter for not using his to stop Tousen from cutting his arm off, or Ikkaku not having a bankai because he didnt use it against Ichigo when they first fought.
    Your comparison isn't correct because Yammi and GJ were stopped from releasing by others while Hiyori already released her hollow powers. Besides, it's not the normal release were talking about but a power up from that release.

    Quote Originally Posted by poopoomaru View Post
    One second she was fine, the next Ichigo exploded, she had her mask on , there was no way to know that with his hollow powers releasing that he would have that much more power then her, she would have had to transform in that the milisecond time between when she realized she was about to almost die and when she would actually got hit.
    Are youn saying she needed more time to so call transfer to a higher level? I don't think so, as a matter of fact going a level up in bleach makes the character transforming blasts off energy that Hiyori could've used to defend herself...she didn't do anything a person who has more to offer usually does..she didn't get mad, she didn't run her mouth, she didn't threat..all she did was sitting scared far away from hollow Ichigo


    It is impossible for vizards to power up above their vizard levels....it will be like asking a Gillian hollow to power up to a Vasto Lorde level. The vizards' hollow-side can't grow to more than what it already is.
    Last edited by Silhouette; April 12, 2007 at 06:25 PM.
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  14. #14
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    Re: Vizard bankai theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Silhouette View Post
    True but my point is "why didn't the Hiyori power up once she found Ichigo isn't the weakers one?" the answer is simple , her hollow powers are like normal hollows thus they can't grow further than what they already are. For example, if Hiyori had Gillian hollow powers and Ichigo had Vasto Lorde one, then that's pretty much it...Hiyori can't increase her hollow powers to match Ichigo's.



    Your comparison isn't correct because Yammi and GJ were stopped from releasing by others while Hiyori already released her hollow powers. Besides, it's not the normal release were talking about but a power up from that release.


    Are youn saying she needed more time to so call transfer to a higher level? I don't think so, as a matter of fact going a level up in bleach makes the character transforming blasts off energy that Hiyori could've used to defend herself...she didn't do anything a person who has more to offer usually does..she didn't get mad, she didn't run her mouth, she didn't threat..all she did was sitting scared far away from hollow Ichigo


    It is impossible for vizards to power up above their vizard levels....it will be like asking a Gillian hollow to power up to a Vasto Lorde level. The vizards' hollow-side can't grow to more than what it already is.
    http://www.bleachexile.com/bleach-on...?image_id=4946
    http://www.bleachexile.com/bleach-on...?image_id=4947
    http://www.bleachexile.com/bleach-on...?image_id=4948
    http://www.bleachexile.com/bleach-on...?image_id=4949
    http://www.bleachexile.com/bleach-on...?image_id=4950

    Hiyori was completely overwhelmed in a second, she activated her mask initially to mess with Ichigo at a level of power that couldnt be defended against unless he used his bankai/inner hollow. My point still stands that inbetween the time when she was completely alright, to the time Ichigo rushed her, she had one millisecond to react from a completely cocky and relaxed state. This is not to say she has a stronger hollow form then ichigo, but that she was cocky and didnt expect what was about to happen.

    My comments about Yammy and grimmjaw were not meant to be perfects examples of the Hiyori situation, but to demonstrate that just because some gets quickly overwhelmed, like Yammi when Ichigo quickly suprised him and cut his arm off, and Grimmjaw who was quickly suprise attacked by Tousen, doesnt mean that they dont have any higher level of power, just because they didnt or werent able to use it to defend against that initial attack.

    Quote Quote:
    Your comparison isn't correct because Yammi and GJ were stopped from releasing by others while Hiyori already released her hollow powers. Besides, it's not the normal release were talking about but a power up from that release.
    Your entire statement doesnt make sense =/. Yammi stopped releasing his sword AFTER he got his arm chopped off by his own free will, no one stopped him. Grimmjaw never even grabbed for his sword when Aizen told him to stand down, which was ONCE AGAIN after he got his arm chopped off. No one prevented them from releasing as they were being attacked, they were suprised and hence had no chance to, JUST as Hiyori was suprised and hence had no chance to do anything against Ichigo.

    Quote Quote:
    It is impossible for vizards to power up above their vizard levels....it will be like asking a Gillian hollow to power up to a Vasto Lorde level. The vizards' hollow-side can't grow to more than what it already is.


    My Entire point is not that there is definately another level of vizard release. Like with the zanpakuto levels of Shikai and Bankai. My point is that there is likely a state of perfect mixutre, not that the hollow side becomes more powerful. But rather that th ulitmate form of being a Vizard to have completely ALL of the power of being a shinigami, and ALL of the power of being a Hollow, rather then being shinigami with a little bit of hollow powers, or being a hollow with a little bit of Shinigami powers. You couldnt as for as we know ask a gillian to get stronger, its not about the hollow powers getting stronger, but gaining complete and full access to them.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Silhouette's Avatar
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    Re: Vizard bankai theory

    Quote Quote:
    No one prevented them from releasing as they were being attacked
    Excuse me but this is not true, Ulquiorra did stop GJ from releasing against Shinji and Yammi was saved then got hit by Ulquiorra when fighting against Urahara (not directly stopped Yammi's release but did in a way)

    And whether Hiyori was too surprised to react or not, why didn't she threat to beat Ichigo or kill him after getting owned? why didn't she tell him next time she will show him her true strenght (i.e ultimate vizard release)? With all due respect dude, your assumptions just don't add up.



    Besides, this thread discusses the possibility of vizard power up not the perfect hybrid and my post were to discuss that point. But if you want to talk about the perfect hybrid then in my opinion the strongest form of a hybrid should have
    1-A mixute of great shinigami powers (i.e captain level bankai) and hollow power (i.e vasto lorde level)
    2-Special hollow powers and traits like regeneration
    3-The reiatsu of such hybrid should be stable or under control not like Grand Fisher or Ichigo (at least so far).

    I also think such power is demonstrated by vizards more than espadas since vizards do have hollow powers like cero while espadas fail to show shinigami-specific powers like bankai.
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