Are Aizen, Tousen, & Gin vizards?

[Tsukisama]

He seemed to wait a long while before deciding to invade. I doubt he was thinking "I better go before they build up a big defense." He knows the power of the Gotei 13 lies within the captains and as long he's stronger than them, he has no problem. Mayuri even admitted that the captains are the true power of the Gotei 13.

Yea he wants to create the Ouken, but you think Aizen would rush into things unnecessarily? He knows he was going to face opposition from SS.

I was thinking that one of the reasons Aizen waited until now to invade was because he was waiting to lure the ryoka and the captains into HM and trap them there. It seemed as if waiting for the Hougyoku to be complete to attack was just another red herring of Aizen.

Not the only part. He did say he wanted to become stronger. How did Ichigo gain his inner hollow?

Ichigo gained his inner hollow during Urahara's method of regaining his shinigami powers.

[Razh]

Ichigo gained his inner hollow during Urahara's method of regaining his shinigami powers.

It was a rhetorical question. No need for answer.
He did it with the help of Hogyoku. Which Aizen now has. It's hard to believe that he would only use it to produce Arrancar, since he said he wanted more power.

[chrisb3]

It was a rhetorical question. No need for answer.
He did it with the help of Hogyoku.

That's quite rude. Try explaining yourself?

He didn't get his inner hollow because of the Hougyoku, he got it because of Urahara's method of getting his powers back, which would turn him into a shinigami or a hollow.
It went slightly wrong and we don't quite know why, saying the Hougyoku did it is just speculation. At that time it was in SS unless your saying it altered him when he got his powers from Rukia - which there is zero evidence of.

[Tsukisama]

It was a rhetorical question. No need for answer.
He did it with the help of Hogyoku. Which Aizen now has.

You mean that Ichigo gained his inner hollow through the involvement of the Hougyoku somehow? That is stated nowhere in the manga, is it? (I am quite certain that it is not.) Did not Urahara's method for regaining his shinigami powers allow for Ichigo to gain a hollow persona?

[Zeus-Tails]

The Hyougoku was already in Rukia in the SS at the time that Ichigo gained his hollow powers.

[Tsukisama]

The Hyougoku was already in Rukia in the SS at the time that Ichigo gained his hollow powers.

That, however, has no confirmed bearing on Ichigo gaining an inner hollow. The Hougyoku was supposedly sealed inside of Rukia, and therefore, unless we are told something went unexpected happened, the Hougyoku should not have had any effects on her or Ichigo. What you are proposing is only theory and should not be taken as anything more than that until support from within the manga comes.

[Razh]

That's quite rude. Try explaining yourself?

Rude? That wasn't rude. If you took it as rude then I can't help it.

Sorry guys, it's been a while since I read it all. Messed up a little.

Hogyoku was made to dissolve boundaries between Shinigami and Hollow, right?
I think the other Vizard became Vizard because of it. Something happened, and it's no coincidence it happened after Urahara became a captain. Well, we'll see anyway.
Ichigo is kind of unique. It's kinda difficult to imagine that all Vizard gained their masks the same way he did. Besides he wasn't Shinigami to begin with, and I think we still have things to discover about Ichigo.

And I also think that Aizen didn't go through all that trouble just to make Arrancar, and not to strenghten himself in the process. Even if he did reach maximum potential as a captain, he's planning on becoming a Spirit King (or whatever), and he has to beat the other captains, plus Royal Guard. And who knows how strong King is.

[chrisb3]

Rude? That wasn't rude. If you took it as rude then I can't help it.

You asked a question that someone kindly ansered for you.

You then said it was rhetorial (despite no indication of it being so) and said that person shouldn't have ansered. It that was true you could have just not commented on that.

I think it is rude to treat someone who tried to help you like that.

[Razh]

You asked a question that someone kindly ansered for you.

You then said it was rhetorial (despite no indication of it being so) and said that person shouldn't have ansered. It that was true you could have just not commented on that.

I think it is rude to treat someone who tried to help you like that.

I didn't treat anybody rudely. That's the way you saw it.

I for one find it rude when a stranger calls me rude, based on a few sentences and his own distorted sense of reallity.

And BTW, if you're going to take these posts in a discussion about manga so seriously than you have bigger problems than me.

Oh and Tsukisama, if you were offended in any way by that silly post than I apologize.

[darkbass]

if just being a hybrid would give you the power to open a garganta, ichigo could as well, if he can't it could mean it is a techinque and being in the place where it was created would help learning to do it well, rather than never having contact with someone who knows how to open a garganta and having to figure out some alternative and harder way to do it, like urahara, and he did open one, encantation or not

[Tsukisama]

Oh and Tsukisama, if you were offended in any way by that silly post than I apologize.

Don't worry, Razh. There have been plenty of users here that have been far more impolite than you. I am not offended, but it is nice that you apologized anyway.

I didn't treat anybody rudely. That's the way you saw it.

I for one find it rude when a stranger calls me rude, based on a few sentences and his own distorted sense of reallity.

And BTW, if you're going to take these posts in a discussion about manga so seriously than you have bigger problems than me.

This part of your post was a bit rude. I know that you probably felt attacked and wanted to respond to the criticism, but you don't need to respond so harshly. It is always better to take the high road if you are ever in a situation where you are being treated unjustly but not being hurt significantly.

---

You asked a question that someone kindly ansered for you.

You then said it was rhetorial (despite no indication of it being so) and said that person shouldn't have ansered. It that was true you could have just not commented on that.

I think it is rude to treat someone who tried to help you like that.

As for you, chrisb3, thank you for sticking up for me. It is always nice to have conscientious such as yourself, but it is best to try not to start conflict. There is a way to suggest that someone is being impolite without coming off as though you are preaching to others. That way, no conflict arises, but again, I really appreciate your concern and civility.

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Back to the topic...

if just being a hybrid would give you the power to open a garganta, ichigo could as well, if he can't it could mean it is a techinque and being in the place where it was created would help learning to do it well, rather than never having contact with someone who knows how to open a garganta and having to figure out some alternative and harder way to do it, like urahara, and he did open one, encantation or not

You're right that if opening a garganta is a power of vizards, then Ichigo should be able to do it also. I don't think he co'uld probably learn to do it in the time that he is trapped in HM, which I imagine would only last for probably the duration of the Aizen forces vs. remaining SS forces battles; so, I wonder if he will learn to do it.

Once the plot moves on from HM by the good guys currently held there leaving, I am thinking that the plot will probably not shift back to HM for a long while if ever; so, if Ichigo would not need to be in HM, I doubt that he would learn the skill.

Perhaps, as you say, all vizards can open garganta. That may explain how the vizards claim to know all about Aizen's plans: they have been scouting out in HM and learned of his plot there.

[Razh]

This part of your post was a bit rude. I know that you probably felt attacked and wanted to respond to the criticism, but you don't need to respond so harshly. It is always better to take the high road if you are ever in a situation where you are being treated unjustly but not being hurt significantly.
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I know it was rude, but I was only half serious.

You know, sometimes it's just not fun to let it go...

[Richo]

Anyway, can I get some real rebuttals and not just random skeptics spewing the first thing that comes off the top of their head?

so if tousen is able to open a garganta, so should be all vaizards and ichigo right? RIGHT?
the fact remains we dont know if gin and tousen have gained and increasement in power nor if they had transformed into vaizards.
At this point i think its well proven that they arent vaizards, and i came with this argument before but its obviously no one read it. All the arrancar were unaware of the existence of shinigami who obtained a hollow mask until ichigo showed it to some of the arrancar. Halibel (Being in the top 3 espada), Grimjow (6th espada), Ulquira (4th espada) didnt know of the existence of vaizards until ichigo put his mask on. The arrancar all know about the powers aizen, ulquora said himself he knew about aizen his shikai powers. I think this information is sufficient enough to say that aizen, tousen and gin dont posses vaizard powers.

Besides, it's perfectly fine for his underlings to receive a boost from a partially sealed hougyoku, as they're all pawns to him anyway.
On top of that Aizen must have noticed that the more the thing becomes unsealed, the more powerful the arrancar he creates end up.

untrue, the power off a arrancar is based upon the level off the hollow before it transformed and its natural potential. It is true that the first hollow were "inperfect" so to say and not as strong as the normal arrancar, this is because of aizen was experimenting with hougyoku to see how much reiatsu was required to unseal the hougyoku.
The most important part in where you create a arrancer is the level off the menos (it is obvious that a vasto lodre is the strongest amoungt menos and will most certainly create a espada level arrancar. Also at the time aizen just hougyoku he didnt have ANY vasto lodre class arrancar only normal hollows and gillians, so it would be not more then normal he didnt had as strong arrancar then as now.

[Zeus-Tails]

so if tousen is able to open a garganta, so should be all vaizards and ichigo right? RIGHT?
the fact remains we dont know if gin and tousen have gained and increasement in power nor if they had transformed into vaizards.
At this point i think its well proven that they arent vaizards, and i came with this argument before but its obviously no one read it. All the arrancar were unaware of the existence of shinigami who obtained a hollow mask until ichigo showed it to some of the arrancar. Halibel (Being in the top 3 espada), Grimjow (6th espada), Ulquira (4th espada) didnt know of the existence of vaizards until ichigo put his mask on. The arrancar all know about the powers aizen, ulquora said himself he knew about aizen his shikai powers. I think this information is sufficient enough to say that aizen, tousen and gin dont posses vaizard powers.

Now trust me when I say this, but I am 100% sure that the Espada do not know all of Aizen's power. I don't think Aizen has a bulletin board which has an outline and every power he has. Furthermore, I doubt any arrancar has seen Aizen even fight with more than his shikai, so you can bet they don't know the extent of what he can do.

It's been proven they aren't Vizards? No, no one has proven they aren't. Your line about asking then would Ichigo and other Vizards be able to open it...who says they cannot? We haven't seen any of the Vizards try to open it and Ichigo hasn't even made an attempt to open it so we don't know if he can or cannot.

[Cyven]

He seemed to wait a long while before deciding to invade. I doubt he was thinking "I better go before they build up a big defense." He knows the power of the Gotei 13 lies within the captains and as long he's stronger than them, he has no problem. Mayuri even admitted that the captains are the true power of the Gotei 13.

Yea he wants to create the Ouken, but you think Aizen would rush into things unnecessarily? He knows he was going to face opposition from SS.

Actually that last sentence proves why Aizen wouldn't have used the hougyoku on himself already

"but you think Aizen would rush into things unnecessarily?"

Besides, if he knows he's stronger than the other captains, there's absolutely no reason for him to want to power up already. Aizen has demonstrated incredible patience so far, I'm pretty sure he's willing to wait.