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Thread: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

  1. #181
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impel Down's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    For us Catholics, we fast the forty days before Good Friday, aka, the day Jesus was crucified. We can only eat the three square meals, but each have to be very small, on Fridays we can't eat meat, and we have to give up one thing we hold dear, but don't truly need. Apparently, you're allowed to take Sunday off, but not that many people do that.

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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    thank you for the correction.
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    No prob. That's why I'm here...sort of. Actually, that is in no way why I am here, but I felt it would be useful to clarify.

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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    What do Muslims think of Salman Rushdie? It seems all other Muslim beliefs are overshadowed by the bounties on his head.
    Hold your peace while you hold your piece - Maddox

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member conan's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    hmm, sulman rushdy, well to tell you the truth I simply Dont think about him, apparently when I was very young child and didnt care about much he wrote some really offensive content about certain muslim figures both the the holy scripture and prophet, but I was too young then and didnt care much and I think there are more important things to research myself than that old story, but to make it clearer of the reaction in some muslim countries, I heard there was calling for deaths and so on, I keep saying in this same thread lot of this is political and, and political figures who came out to call for his head were satisfying an angry mob who would follow them without question after that, this my own narrow individual side of the story, so basically I dont think of him much and dont care, if someone really wants to know about the prophet and the quran ( the holy scripture) then they are welcome to ask me and I'll talk to them anytime, and even when I dont know the answer I'll try leading them to someone who does, but if they insult me or my religion in an offensive way, I know most of what I say would come on deaf ears, some people just want insult you becuase they hate what ever reason they give themselves as an excuse, now I said this becuase something similar has happened lately with the offensive cartoons that drew the prophrt in a way that showed him as a terrorist, I wont back fire to something like that, I just wish a muslim artist or writer would publish something as an answer to such a thing, which to my humble knowledge didnt happen, instead angry people were off in the streets shouting and cursing, which doesnt solve anything at all, and expect the boycott of denemark products for a short time nothing really concrete happened on the muslim side of the world, which is a very big side.
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  6. #186
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    I personally don't understand the uproar against Rushdie and his novel, The Satanic Verses. Above anything else, the novel is a work of fiction which purpose is to convey an interesting narrative and nothing really else, despite that fact that it is based in some reality by Ibn Ishaq's biography of the prophet Muhammad. I don't get why it is so offensive. Now if it was a work of nonfiction and was stated as fact than the controversy may be valid.

    It's sort of the same situation that Christian's have with the novel The DaVinci Code. There is uproar among the most reactionary groups, but these are the same people who condemn Harry Potter because it promotes Witchcraft. No Christian leaders are calling for Dan Brown's assassination.

    I'm agnostic, but this is just my point of view on the subject.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member amar_kun's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    if you dont understand please understand the feeling of those who undestand it.

    understand?

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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by amar_kun View Post
    if you dont understand please understand the feeling of those who undestand it.

    understand?
    No, that's not an explanation so I can't begin to.

    Otherwise, all works of fiction should be considered as factual accounts and the line between entertainment and education would blur. Why call for someone's murder? It's nonsensical to me, sorry.

  9. #189
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member conan's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    well xio, I read a small description to try and understand what rushdie wrote, its not really fiction, to me it seems a blur between fact and fiction, he meddled with an already existing story , and its not just any story its one that certain scholars like (Altabary) spent their lives working to collect and refine, by following each story to its source in a time travelling between countries would be done by walking and riding, or like (al bukhary) and (imam muslim) I am telling you these people spent their youths and lives for this,and rushdy obviously meddled with that, to me thats not acceptable, by the way I have never heard of ibn ishaq at all, I still say it is something really before my time and I was really too young to remeber, but I can see how simple this is, he messed with the most basic and important of facts about the beginning of islam, the result of that cannot be good either way, but I cant even imagine what he wrote to make people that angry, and interesting narrative to me isnt worth angering so many people, my own humble opinion which you could disagree with.
    now do you understand ?
    Last edited by conan; September 22, 2007 at 07:30 AM.
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by xi0 View Post
    I personally don't understand the uproar against Rushdie and his novel, The Satanic Verses. Above anything else, the novel is a work of fiction which purpose is to convey an interesting narrative and nothing really else, despite that fact that it is based in some reality by Ibn Ishaq's biography of the prophet Muhammad. I don't get why it is so offensive. Now if it was a work of nonfiction and was stated as fact than the controversy may be valid.

    It's sort of the same situation that Christian's have with the novel The DaVinci Code. There is uproar among the most reactionary groups, but these are the same people who condemn Harry Potter because it promotes Witchcraft. No Christian leaders are calling for Dan Brown's assassination.

    I'm agnostic, but this is just my point of view on the subject.
    Well the uproar mostly is caused by hooligans who never read the book but are defensive about their religion, and when the uproar is further amplified by the mass media it really becomes problematic

    The uproar not only caused by muslim but also non muslim. why? Let me quote you some of the content of the book. The satanic verse

    warning the language below is very disturbing, its not my words im quoting it. P/s mods if you find it againts the rule please dilute it or remove it..

    Spoiler: NSFW quote show



    so that is where the uproar originated. again sorry for the rude language
    Last edited by Ichimaru Gin n Tonic; September 22, 2007 at 08:07 PM.
    We are living in an age of such extreme and the one who are not driven mad by it are not sane

  11. #191
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity PaperYomiko's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    This is a very sensitive issue, so I would just like to remind everyone to please continue to respect all sides and opinions. I think one of the biggest problems in keeping this discourse from truly being resolved is misunderstanding on both sides of the issue – people who argue against Rushdie, yet have never read his novel, and people who argue for him, yet do not really see where the offense originates from.

    First of all, I believe very strongly in freedom of religion, and the right to have your beliefs respected. I also believe very strongly in freedom of speech and an artist’s right to his creative freedoms.

    I don’t know a lot about the religious side of this argument, and I won’t pretend that I do. However, I do know a lot about the literary side, as I not only studied The Satanic Verses in a class last year, but Rushdie happens to be one of my favorite writers, and it one of my favorite novels. Still, I’ll try to remain as objective here as possible.

    The Satanic Verses is a work of fiction. There is no question about that. However, in all works of fiction, a writer draws his or her ideas and inspirations from life, previous works of literature, and all other external sources that might influence them.

    Unfortunately, the religious controversy over The Satanic Verses has overshadowed its true, and extremely powerful meaning. Rushdie’s intentions in writing this novel were not to offend, or even critique, the nature, history, or theology of Islam. He is working to criticize the nature of extremism - the extreme adherence to belief in singularity of any kind to the point where acceptance and respect of anything else is impossible. A critique on religious singularity does come into the novel – thus, the passage Mahound, which has sparked most of the debate. However, if you read carefully, you’ll notice that nothing is a black or white issue with Rushdie – he is as critical of one side as he is the other, and so, the belief in extreme religious singularity becomes, in his eyes, as fallible as the belief in religious multiplicity. This is shown as the character Mahound struggles to have himself and his beliefs accepted in a city of polytheistic worship. It is important to note, however, this is not a commentary on monotheistic vs. polytheistic beliefs, but rather, the acceptance or rejection of more than one ideal; the unyielding nature of homogeneous beliefs vs the adaptability of heterogeneous beliefs. Still, this is only a side story in a much larger novel, which does unavoidably important work relevant to our modern society – not because of it’s religious themes, but primarily because of it’s much more central theme of racism.

    The story opens with Saladin Chamcha, an Indian ex-patriot who has been living in London for most of his adult life, and Gibreel Farishta, an Indian movie star, falling from a height of 29,002 feet in the sky above London, after their airplane has been blown apart by terrorists. As they fall together, both go through a series of physical metamorphoses: Gibreel literally transforms into an archangel, Saladin into a goatish devil (this novel is a great example of Magical Realism, where even the most ludicrous, impossible things are literalized into truth). Though the imagery here is religious in origin, it’s main purpose is to criticize racism and the societal conventions that sustain such beliefs. Both men are transformed into literal manifestations of how society views them – Saladin, a man who has attempted to assimilate into British culture and become British, is viewed in a negative light as he threatens the homogeny and traditions of the society, while Gibreel is seen in a positive, though highly condescending light, as he is a man who could never assimilate, thus is no threat, and is given the persona of a childish, inferior man.

    There is racism in both manifestations, as they both embody racial stereotypes - and it is important to note, as well, that although the 'racist body' in this novel is represented mainly as 'Britain', the idea is applicable to any group or agency where such ideas persist - I'm not trying to say here that the British and only the British are racist, because that's just entirely untrue and absurd. However, because Rushdie is very much using his own personal experiences in this novel, it is impossible to deny that racism in Britain towards Indians and other immigrants is the target of much of his criticism here.

    The novel continues to follow them through London as they attempt to come to terms with their identities and a society in which they neither belong nor are able to reject. The nature of this racism and its affect on an individual’s identity is one of the most important themes of the novel, and one that I am most interested in in studying this novel. For anyone interested in reading more about it, I wrote a short paper on identity, racism, and Saladin Chamcha, which I would be happy to share if it would help to shed more light on the true themes of The Satanic Verses.

    Finally, it was said above that this novel offended more than just Muslims – this is very true. There was a great number of white, non-muslim, primarily British people who found this novel offensive, and I believe they are a large contingency of those protesting Rushdie’s knighthood. However, this is not due to any offensive language in the novel, but because the characters portrayed in the most negative light happen to be, put very blunty, white Englishmen. Why? Because Rushdie is turning every idea upside down in this novel, he does not allow any belief or convention to pass without dissecting it. The white Englishmen are as much a representation of important themes as are Saladin, Gibreel, and Mahound. They are not specific people, they are ideas.

    Of course this novel was bound to offend and provoke, but that is part of it’s usefulness. It dissects important, but uncomfortable ideas and conventions of our society – everyone’s society – which must be addressed in our modern world if we are to function as one.

    If I have written anything here that offends, please take to heart that it is in no way intentional. This is a highly complicated and emotional topic to discuss, though I believe an extremely important one, and I hope that it can continue here in a friendly and constructive light. Please be aware, however, that if discussion deviates to a more provoking and disrespectful vein, this thread will have to be closed until emotions cool down.
    "Peace to the books of the world, an iron hammer to those who would abuse them..."

  12. #192
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    True PaperYomiko, all in all theres diversity of opinions on it and to continue to discuss it on a forum that promote harmony and entertainment maybe not such a good idea...

    Children have been orphaned, wives have been widowed and the writers dead so the damage has been done really. I'm sure it makes an interesting dialogue but perhaps not on a manga forum. thats my opinion

    thanks for the kind response anyway, all of you.

    Edit - Just to note the position of most muslims, not in any way implying i speak on behalf of muslims, theres difference of opinions to this issue.

    the highest muslim sunni legal authority (the Al-azhar in Cairo) and most muslim authority disagree with Khomeini's fatwa.

    but to read the newspaper, you would thought that all muslim were determined to cut rushdies throat.
    Last edited by helping; September 22, 2007 at 05:39 PM.
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member conan's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    I agree with helping, I dont think there is really enough information about this, and at paper yomiko's post I have a feeling that all has been said about this and there isnt many more opinions to be represented, in this day of ramadan, I'd rather skip this, by the way to all muslim brothers and sisters, I haven't yet congratulated you on ramadan, being on the 10th day I am a bit late but ramdan mubarak to all of you.
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  14. #194
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    FYI conan, Ibn Ishaq is the author of the first known biography of the prophet Muhammad.

    I wasn't trying to characterize all Muslims as calling for Rushdie's head, but I was just expressing my inability to understand those that do.

    Remember that most great novels or works of literature angered people, and the reason they were great is because of this. Works of art that provoke no response are worse than those that people have an opinion about.

  15. #195
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member amar_kun's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    xio, i hope the explanation from py statisfy you and there is no need to further discuss about this matter..

    and for your information, yes ibn ishaq is one of the authors of biography of the prophet, but nowadays there are research done to study back and check the authenticity of his writings. most scholars rather use ibn hisyam's work on biografy of the prophet since the authenticity is better.

    happy ramadhan to you as well conan. may this ramadhan will bring taqwa to all of us. ameen.

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