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Thread: Logical Fallacies and common stupid slogan regarding the shooting of Trayvon Martin

  1. #1
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity weixiaobao's Avatar
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    Logical Fallacies and common stupid slogan regarding the shooting of Trayvon Martin

    No I am not black nor am I white nor am I Latino.

    I was making this as my facebook post but I rather do it anonymously on the internet. I realize there is also a Trayvon Martin thread. But I could careless about the verdict but rather the ugliness of the American people.

    1) The media is race baiting- People like me, who had follow the case since its inception know that there was no legal process was being done before the media caught it. I meant for godsake, the polices drug tested Trayvon and not Zimmerman. Recalled the rape of Steubenville? No legal process was being done until Anonymous put that video on youtube and caught the attention of the media. Yes, it took all that media ruckus to have a goddam trial.

    2) Why don't the media post a current picture of Trayvon- I think there are a lot of smart alex out there who thought they are such a genius with this one. The media common practice is that they will post a nice picture of the assume victim. This is standard practice. They don't try to hide jackshit. Some media posted the picture of Trayvon laid there dead. Do you guys not see that is the most current picture of Trayvon??? Why do people pose this question on this case and not other cases?? This begged the question of the motive of the people who ask these questions??

    3) Martin Zimmerman isn't white- race is artificial and is a product of society. Anybody who have taken Genetic and or Biology should know this (And I know this because I am, after all, a biochem major). The fact is that through out American history, the ruling class, "white males" dictate what is white. Irish didn't consider to be white at one point. Whereas Native Americans if had some drop of white blood would consider to be white because Americans try to do cultural genocide. As for slave there is this One-drop rule http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule This even more evidence in the Latin culture. Some tried to distanced themselves away from being Mexicans.

    My point is this. Zimmerman was white enough for the people to support him. The so call "race baiting" stir as much emotion within the white populations as much as for supporters of Trayvon. People from the getgo hail Zimmerman as a hero even without any evidences from the trial. Donations flocked to Zimmerman. "White" here is a symbolism as in people empathize with Zimmerman whether because they themselves tired of the whole "racist nonsense" and or feeling like they are under attack by the so call "entitled" "defensive" blacks.

    The fact is that people so very stressed upon whether Zimmerman was white or not meant that the race issue matter to them whether or not they are Zimmerman's supporters and or Trayvon's supporters. So yes race matter very very much. Maybe not so during the shooting. But hell, it matters a goddam whole lot as people react to this case.

    4) It isn't about the Hoodie- Fox News conservative commenter Geraldo Rivera who was the first person brought this up. Why is this brought up in the first place?? Because Rivera said that because of the clothing and context of the time and day, that it is justified for profiling. It begged the question of why Trayvon is a suspect in the first place. Would a white woman dressing up like that will be profiled?? This conservative commenter further advised minority not to wear the "hoodie." However, there are pictures of him wearing the hoodie. Zimmerman said Trayvon is suspicious because he walked slowly. What if Trayvon walked faster??? Wouldn't that make him suspicious too?? When it came down to it, there definitely was racial profiling and the skin color of Trayvon made him suspicious.

    I don't think racial profiling is a crime. People has a brain, they should use it to make logical hypothesis regarding the situation. I don't blame Zimmerman if he did. In fact, I do it too since I live in Chicago after all. But it is another to dismiss that race has nothing to do with this case. And yet, being a Latino doesn't immune one from being a potential racist. But I doubt Zimmerman is a racist.

    Though, it does begged the question what is the proper way for blacks to act to not arouse suspicions. Wearing hoodie or not, they will still be suspicious. Walk fast or slow, they still be suspicious. It does very effect the black community.

    5) Trayvon is a thug- Hmmm, do you know Zimmerman also has a record??? Heck, even President W Bush has a record. Do you know Trayvon used drugs?? Heck, even Obama used drugs. So what is the point here??? The point here is to demonize the victim. The point here is to justified Zimmerman's suspicions. Zimmerman is not omnipotent enough to know what Trayvon's past is like to say that Trayvon is a thug. Why is Trayvon a thug?? Because he listen to rap music and making stupid signs like almost all white suburban youths do. Because he did drugs?? Like quite a lot of suburban youths did (a lot of white people too, you know). The fact is that blacks are arrested 2x sometimes 10x more than whites for drug charges even though the rate of usage is pretty much the same for each race. Does that said something about our culture. Libertarians rally on this point quite a lot.



    So what if Trayvon is a thug while Zimmerman was accused of molesting someone and battery against a police officer. So what if Travyon is a thug when if with such a criminal record, W Bush went on to become a president. Who said, Trayvon would turn out better once he grew up. We don't know that, because he is DEAD.

    6) Trayvon deserved this This came from the fact that Trayvon fought Zimmerman, hence the shooting is justified. People go on and on and on about how Trayvon's parents didn't teach him the proper response with someone stalking him. Yes, and how many people act rationally all of the time. I think Zimmerman as an adult held more responsibility than Trayvon. Zimmerman started the fight by following Trayvon. Yes, this would not happen if Zimmerman didn't stalk Trayvon. I don't know if Trayvon is suspicious but sure as hell if Zimmerman stalk me, I would think him as suspicious. Who know what going on in Trayvon's head. But if he was white and an adult with a gun and had shoot and killed Zimmerman. He could totally get a way with it citing stand your ground. People get away with a lot more citing stand your ground.

    Why do I said that Trayvon should have been white?? Look below, who is getting away with "stand your ground" law. And who is usually ended up dead with "stand your ground" law.



    Have you act stupid one time or another?? Have you ever get into a physical fight?? Or maybe in the future?? Does the consequent should be death?? People drove drunk and kill another person don't even received a death sentence.

    So what does this meant?? Trayvon acted irrationally. The consequence was death.

    Zimmerman acted irrationally. He hailed as a hero. People think he is innocent and he shouldn't even have to go to a trial. He received donations. He will not served any time in jail after the trial. He is suing the media. He will probably write a book and may make half a million dollars from that.

    So is that fair?? Is that justice??

    I don't blame Zimmerman for racial profiling. I don't blame Zimmerman for following Trayvon. I don't blame Zimmerman for shooting Trayvon once Zimmerman is fighting for his life. If I was Zimmerman, I may as well shoot and kill Trayvon if my life is in the line. And I think I should have go to jail for it. You may rob a store to get money to cure cancer for you dying kid. But you sure as hell should suffer the consequence for it. THAT IS JUSTICE.

    This case will set a new standard. People will shoot each other for less. They may or may not get away with it. But people don't think when something is happening. They thought they are invincible because of "Stand your ground" Law. They will shoot and kill one another. See the below vid, they shoot another because he has loud music. Yes, fucking loud music. He may or may not get away with it in the eye of the law. But some people will die. They will not have a second chance. The mentality of I think I should shoot another person is dangerous. This is an entitlement. It is just nearly as sick as the criminal who put people life in danger for a buck or two.



    7) This case is an artificial race war created by Obama - This is a famous saying by the libertarians. Sure, everything must be a goddam controversy. I love the libertarians. They are among the smartest of the right wing and probably smarter than some extreme hippie liberals. But goddam. Can a president not have an opinion that deeply reflect the culture/personal/historical background of him/herself. I felt bad for all presidents even Nixon and Bush. In some way, they do think what they are doing is what best for America. Although, some are misguided.

    8) There is no longer racism in America



    There is always racism in America. I meant isn't the increase sale of Trayvon Martin shape shooting target kinda show that?? Maybe blacks should worry more about education and inner city gang violent, you said. Maybe, they already are worry about those things. Maybe, you said, why don't black leaders don't speak up about these things. And I said, you just don't look hard enough. I can name one right on top of my head, Bill Cosby. People say shit just to fit into the narrative of their reality. They don't want to search. In one way or another, racism at the individual level is not against the law. It is in a way freedom. Freedom to judge. But regardless it is still a social ill.

    People are angry that the liberals are angry because of such and such. Then why don't you reflect on what some of the irrational things you are angry about. Then you will see that you may as well just as irrational as the ones you are criticizing.

    Yeah, my grammar is dipshit. I know that much.

    2 AM, I need to go to bed.

    Do what you must, but open your ear and try to understand the other side.

    ====================================================================

    I will argue to the death if you cried irrelevant shit like racism and manga. But I will also defend you to the death in relevant cases like this.
    Last edited by weixiaobao; July 20, 2013 at 02:44 AM.

  2. #2
    Horosho 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Kaiten's Avatar
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    Re: Logical Fallacies and common stupid slogan regarding the shooting of Trayvon Martin

    Out of curiosity: do you actual know the law?

    Racial profiling is a crime. The 14th amendment to the Constitution guarantees equal protection under the law. "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States." Race does not pass for "probable cause" under the fourth amendment. Racial profiling only really works hidden behind airport security, or something similar. Zimmerman is a little different, because he was just a night watchman playing cop. He did not have the full authority of the state behind him. Rather than race, my feeling (based on facts presented) is that Zimmerman was strutting about the neighborhood, pretending to be a tough guy. Actually confronted with an individual acting aggressively, he panicked and pulled his gun. I did not see anything in any report that implied Zimmerman's life was actually in danger. I think the verdict was more a matter of the state charging Zimmerman with the wrong crime. Florida sought to convict on charges of 2nd degree murder when this probably was a case of voluntary manslaughter.

    ---------- Post added at 11:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 AM ----------

    I assume calling Bill Cosby a black community leader was a Freudian slip, and you really meant Dr. Cornell West. Right?

    ---------- Post added at 11:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 AM ----------

    A little advice: when making an intellectual statement, try not to throw around pejoratives. Treating other people's opinion with respect helps build credibility. Calling people things like "hippie liberals" erodes credibility. You don't have to like the argument, but you do have to respect the individual. A good argument should stand on it's own merit, without the need for name calling.
    Last edited by Kaiten; July 20, 2013 at 10:34 AM.

  3. #3
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Logical Fallacies and common stupid slogan regarding the shooting of Trayvon Martin

    Racial profiling has and will always exist no matter where you are, and sadly given the image of the blacks, they receive the worst brunt of it.

    As for the media... do you think media cares about honesty? They care about selling their papers, and turning Trayvon and ZImmerman into a racial thing sells better because more people will want to read it. They don't care as much for honesty as they do selling, as long as they don't get in trouble. Victims almost always gets painted in a better light, probably to avoid trouble or showing disrespect and in many cases, to turn it into man vs. woman or white vs. minority to grab more attention.

    "It's not personal, it's strictly business."

  4. #4
    Horosho 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Kaiten's Avatar
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    Re: Logical Fallacies and common stupid slogan regarding the shooting of Trayvon Martin

    Racial profiling is not used the way he suggested, in order to solve crimes and save lives. Race is not legal grounds for probable cause. If used as grounds for a warrantless search, race would be inadmissible in court, and all evidence collected thrown out. Using some flimsy excuse as a disguise for racial profiling usually falls apart under cross examination, or on appeal. Most racial profiling is more a matter of harassment, rather than actual law enforcement. In the Zimmerman case, racial profiling charges were brought by the prosecution in order to prove malice, necessary for a 2nd degree murder conviction. Malice could not be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, so Zimmerman was found not guilty. Manslaughter does not require proof of malice. Had he been charged with voluntary manslaughter, the prosecution would not have had to prove that the crime was racially motivated. A miscalculation on the part of the prosecution, and probably the reason he was not convicted.

  5. #5
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Logical Fallacies and common stupid slogan regarding the shooting of Trayvon Martin

    I don't agree with racial profiling, but I was saying that no law would stop racial profiling. I remember reading the police's anger at being banned from using profiling to capture suspects because it severely limited them. But, it's hard not to judge a black guy wearing hoodies, considering the image given. Hell, I'd find that suspicious for any race, depending on how they look.

    In many cases, racial profiling accuses an innocent person of something just because he's of certain color.

  6. #6
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity weixiaobao's Avatar
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    Re: Logical Fallacies and common stupid slogan regarding the shooting of Trayvon Martin

    Kaiten- people are a bunch of dumbass sometimes. People cited the first amendment over youtube taking down The Kirk Cameron's ad for a new movie. Do they know that the first amendment applied to the government and not really youtube. It like I complained about the first amendment if you delete my post. Same thing with racial profiling. People have prejudice view. Obama said that a white lady held tightly on her purse on the elevator. People are free to do that.

    I am not a lawyer, but I know what you are talking about. I have no power over what the prosecution wanted to do. But hell, society held people accountable. So because some prosecutors are stupid, then the criminals should walk free?? Yes, that happened. But that doesn't meant I should say well I support that.

    Yes, I do meant Dr. Cornell West. But to me, Bill Cosby is a leader as what the definition of leader meant. You can't fault me for not knowing some one should have more authority than another because I am sure you don't know any leaders among the viet community.

    Quote Quote:
    ry not to throw around pejoratives. Treating other people's opinion with respect helps build credibility. Calling people things like "hippie liberals" erodes credibility.
    Oh boy, I am so disagree with this. The so call progressive liberals shared like 80% of my world view and beliefs. And I hate ignorant hippies saying ignorant stuffs. I feel I have a responsibility to be strict to the people who share my viewpoint. People rally for climate change but don't know what it is about and can change their view because of conservative's fallacy like it is still so cold over the winter then wouldn't that dispute global warming.

    Stupid people are stupid. Whether they rally over what ever cool at the moment like RonPaul Revolution, or Kony 2012, or atheism. I don't care what you believe. But as long as you are logical about it.

    If someone like you, who agree with the verdict because the charge against Zimmerman was wrong. I actually will agree with you because I don't think Zimmerman was set out that night to kill that kid. But if someone said, Zimmerman killed Trayvon because he is a thug and just because. I will call that person stupid. If the tree huggers afraid of dihydrogen monoxide, then I would call them idiots. I may give some people some leeways. But if that person, supposedly, is a representative of an organization on such and such matter, then he or she should know what he or she talking about.

    Yes some hippies liberals are idiot. And yes, many progress liberals are very well educated and deserved respect. I will call a spade a spade. I don't need to sugarcoat thing because I am not a politician. As for the sake of credibility, trust me, if someone is a hardcore zimmerman fan. He/she wouldn't even bother to read this. Whereas I had watch libertarian, liberal, progressive, and conservative commenters on this issue.
    ==================================================================

    There is a different of me racial profiling someone on the street of Chicago where I live when I walking down the street at night, and the New York cops racial profiling, search and frisk someone just because they are black. And or the Arizona cops, stop someone just because they look Mexican.

    One is about liberty (flaw and misguided maybe), the other is tyranny.
    Last edited by weixiaobao; July 20, 2013 at 01:55 PM.

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