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Thread: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

  1. #676
    Harasho 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Kaiten's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by faintsmile1992 View Post
    Only if you want to reduce the study of such religions to studying the history of theology alone, which would mean ignoring the broader study of religious life.
    Do not ever put words in my mouth again. I was merely responding to "Hence what I wrote earlier about living religion, as opposed to defining religions by holy text." You said that Abrahamic Religion can be defined without scripture, it is you who wish to remove theology from a theological discussion. Never once did I say that culture, history, time, and interpretation do not play a role in religion. Never once did I say that the Abrahamic Religions do not draw on non-Abrahamic sources. I simply said that scripture is so fundamental to Judaic-Christian-Islamic theology that the history, development, and interpretation of Western religion can not be done outside of the context of scripture. And they are not.

    Quote Quote:
    The problem is this has nothing to do with a devout, churchgoing medieval peasant who couldn't understand Latin mass or scripture and believes in an animistic view of the natural world, like his polytheistic ancestors. Would he be a Christian or not in you're view? Because he was a Christian in his own opinion, and to the church itself.
    Get your facts straight please. Mass was in Latin so that parishioners were dependent on the priesthood for interpretation. A medieval church goer would be told how to feel about religion, differing opinion was suppressed, often violently. Much deviation was a result of the conversion process, the Catholic Church bending interpretation to appeal to local taste. The Catholic Church was often competing with the Arian heresy when converting Germanic tribes. Some were Arian Christians first and converted to Catholicism hundreds of years later. The Franks are a very good example of this. In other cases, such as the Angles and Saxons, the church was competing with Arianism for converts. And never forget: nobody cared what the peasants thought. They were told to believe in whatever their rulers believed in. And that would be the way of things right up until the 19th century. Freedom of religion is a modern concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by k-dom View Post
    That may be one of the first time I agree with faint over you :-)
    Your definition of religion and book really resemble a mathematical bijection which is really wrong. Otherwise they wouldn't be that many type of christian churchs based on the same book.
    The catholic church was highly influenced by the former 'pagan' religions. The cult of the saint and the reliques in particular. Those are very fundamental for worshippers and have few to do with the text rather than folklore and superstition. And here I'm not speaking of the 'book religion' in africa. I should reread Amadou Kourouma, the interaction between Coran and animism were really well telled
    The Jewish religion developed three great innovations that guide it and it's successors. The first is monotheism of course. The second is linear time: there is a beginning, a middle, and an end of days. Cyclic time was rejected, time has a beginning in the creation and an end in revelations. The third is scripture. The ten commandments were a miracle , passed directly from god to Moses. Never before had a religion claimed that the wisdom of god could be found in the word, that god could be understood by study as well as ritual. This is a radical change, that spirituality could be reached by understanding, through intellect. As with any intellectual pursuit, understanding and interpretation are left to the individual (in theory) or individual culture. Religion can change to meet cultural needs, religion can meet the needs of the people. The Catholic Church can venerate the Saints, the Orthodox Church can retain their icons, and be equally Christian as both believe in the word, that the wisdom of god can be found in the bible and that salvation can be found in the Son, in believing that Jesus died for the salvation of humanity.

    Aspects of theology will always be debated. Defining how to interpret the trinity was a nightmare for the early church. The Roman government felt the need to intervene, in order to establish an Orthodoxy, in the extra-biblical Nicene Creed. Even defining what was Orthodox scripture took considerable time. The bible makes no mention of how to establish a Christian priesthood. The bible is not the end of all things, but the beginning. Theological debate begins with the bible and ends with how one interprets it and how ritual is established. Scripture comes from a place in time, can be interpreted in historical context, and interpretation changes over time. But scripture plays such a key role that it can not be removed from the discussion, they are to important. Abrahamic religions can not be defined without the religious texts.

    For the record I am Jewish, not Christian. I do not believe in the New Testament. Revelations is bad ass though. I approve
    Last edited by Kaiten; February 05, 2012 at 02:10 PM.

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  3. #677
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    I'm not sure what's exactly the point of debate here(checked back 3 pages and still couldn't find faint's original post on this topic), but from what i got i think you two are talking about 2 different things. I don't think faint is actually saying that books of abrahamic religion are not of any concern when it comes to researching them, what he's probably saying is that books are not what can define those religions. What kaiten's saying about books being the context here is also correct. However saying that books are the context in which the religions have to be discussed sort of sound like saying "what's written in the book(or derived from it) is the religion, and what's not from there is not part of that religion". This can't be true from a pov of a historian/social scientist...he'd have to count in the rituals/acts-done-in-the-name-of-the-religion which are arguably not supported by the book, when he's trying to discuss the religion. However even from that angle, books are a context...since how those rituals got internalized with those that came from the book, and how the book itself was influenced are crucial factors. So if kaiten is not insisting that acts-outside-of-books can't be included in defining a religion, and if faint is not insisting that books can't be ignored to understand the context(despite other factors)...then i think you guys are talking about pretty much the same thing.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member faintsmile1992's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    I'm not sure what's exactly the point of debate here(checked back 3 pages and still couldn't find faint's original post on this topic), but from what i got i think you two are talking about 2 different things. I don't think faint is actually saying that books of abrahamic religion are not of any concern when it comes to researching them, what he's probably saying is that books are not what can define those religions. What kaiten's saying about books being the context here is also correct. However saying that books are the context in which the religions have to be discussed sort of sound like saying "what's written in the book(or derived from it) is the religion, and what's not from there is not part of that religion". This can't be true from a pov of a historian/social scientist...he'd have to count in the rituals/acts-done-in-the-name-of-the-religion which are arguably not supported by the book, when he's trying to discuss the religion.
    Yep, that's correct. Though you're more informal than I am, you're getting the point across better than I could have done.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    Being a Muslim, I can understand why the believers would insist on the point that any act which is not supported by the book is not to be taken as part of the religion. A few pages earlier, whether honor killing is islamic or not was being discussed. As a muslim, i'd say its not...since it has not come from the Quran. In fact if anyone cites this as a criticism against Islam, it'd be a theological criticism and it must be answered as such, that is the Quran (and Hadith) will have to be taken as the sole determinants of whether its really a part of Islam or not. Same is true for the other religions of book. However, if a historian/anthropologist/social scientist bring in honor killing as a part of his discussion on Islam, i can't fault him (Same for other religions). What i'd oppose to is if anyone says that it's come from the Quran, or that its what Islam approves...cause these are, as i've said before, theological points(and are not correct). But the existance of honor killing in some sects of Muslims is a fact, which is why a anthropological/historical discussion of Islam would include them(something out of the books). But even then the books will be a context, since the anthropological explanation will have to probe in the point about how it came into practice in a Muslim society.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shaheer's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    Alright i guess i am mostly talking to ppl who havent read QUran or the hadith so i was a bit appalled.(aprt from dark lord, asher and kaiten )
    In Islam if you are innovating a habbit and making it as a religious liturgy is a sin
    its called BIDAH or innovation of religious acts.
    any acts that claims to be pertaining to religion needs to be from the 1)QUran main primary source of Islam
    2)Hadith/Sunnah second primary source of Islam
    3)Ijmah the scholarly concensus comming from QUran or sunnah if the prior 2 wasnt used then that is not a source of Islam
    4)Qias analogy ie analogies between a currect problem to the problems in hte Quran and sunnah and deriving a proper solution of it, it coes hand in had with Ijmah

    NO other sources are there in Islam
    IF a muslim is doing an act that s not islamic that doesnt make Islam to be what its not rather that makes the guy to be a lesser of a Muslim
    culture and ethics plays a big part in our day to day life but in Islam it has nothing to do with religious duties
    whether you are an Arab or bangladeshi like me or an african or american you need to pray salah; give certain amount of your wealth to poor ,zakah ; fast in the month of ramadan,sawm; nd perform Hajj if you can afford it
    culture has barely any role to play in the religious affairs
    if it does its considered as a bidah
    Last edited by shaheer; February 07, 2012 at 01:13 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member amar_kun's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    A bit off topic here, being the first person who open this discussion topic 6 years ago, it was a nostalgic experience for me to visit this forum again..

    Hope everyone here benefited from this discussion..

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    Der blaue Denker MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Josef K.'s Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    I am Christian Orthodox. It is a religion that has been made with influence primarily from St. Paul and his journey to the Balkans and the spreading of Christianity here. The Orthodox tradition also involves the splitting of the Roman Empire, the creation of the Byzantine Empire, the migration of the Slavic people from the north to the Balkans and the creation of the first University in Europe in the city of Ohrid by the lake, it was started by St. Clement with influence from the Holy Cyril and Methodius who created and spread the Cyrillic script from the Balkans to the rest of the Slavic people. The traditions mainly involve a non-violent religion based on family values and patriotism(tradition, history of the country). Not many people convert to it due to the religion being not that mainstream or keen on getting new followers, it is usually only present in the areas of Eastern and South-Eastern Europe.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted k-dom's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    Orthodox was always a mystery to me. I never really understood clearly what exactly the schism was about compared to catholics and protestants. Beside the rituals, which are clearly different what exactly are the divergences.

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    Der blaue Denker MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Josef K.'s Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by k-dom View Post
    Orthodox was always a mystery to me. I never really understood clearly what exactly the schism was about compared to catholics and protestants. Beside the rituals, which are clearly different what exactly are the divergences.
    Well the most important thing is the Calendar I think, the Catholics and Protestants follows the Julian and the Orthodox follow the Gregorian calendar. The dates of Christmas and Easter are celebrated two weeks after the Catholics and Protestants do. The Roman Empire split is important though as I said, also, the creation of the Byzantine Empire, the migration of the Slavic people from the north to the Balkans. I did not mention how they influenced it though, while most of Western Europe was under the Holy Roman Empire which was ruthless to get people to convert, the Orthodox were never really keen on influencing their religion mostly due to the Renaissance hitting the the Byzantine Empire as well as the influence of Justinian I. So the whole social conditions and the culture of the people made the religion not spread apart from others that spread well into the New World after the Great Age of Discovery. It is a religion for nomadic people who love to keep a very conservative life style without actually pushing anything on anyone. The whole region where Orthodox Christianity is spread has seen the purge of historical assimilation and suffering, from Islamic assimilation of the Balkans to the communistic atheist state of the Soviet Union, people always practiced this religion secretly because it never was an established one, solidly, until probably the Russian Empire.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member 外国人's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by shaheer View Post
    Alright i guess i am mostly talking to ppl who havent read QUran or the hadith so i was a bit appalled.(aprt from dark lord, asher and kaiten )
    In Islam if you are innovating a habbit and making it as a religious liturgy is a sin
    its called BIDAH or innovation of religious acts.
    any acts that claims to be pertaining to religion needs to be from the 1)QUran main primary source of Islam
    2)Hadith/Sunnah second primary source of Islam
    3)Ijmah the scholarly concensus comming from QUran or sunnah if the prior 2 wasnt used then that is not a source of Islam
    4)Qias analogy ie analogies between a currect problem to the problems in hte Quran and sunnah and deriving a proper solution of it, it coes hand in had with Ijmah

    NO other sources are there in Islam
    IF a muslim is doing an act that s not islamic that doesnt make Islam to be what its not rather that makes the guy to be a lesser of a Muslim
    culture and ethics plays a big part in our day to day life but in Islam it has nothing to do with religious duties
    whether you are an Arab or bangladeshi like me or an african or american you need to pray salah; give certain amount of your wealth to poor ,zakah ; fast in the month of ramadan,sawm; nd perform Hajj if you can afford it
    culture has barely any role to play in the religious affairs
    if it does its considered as a bidah
    That's good and all, but there are some questions that you need to answer.

    For one, do you believe that apostates should be killed, as per the quran commands?
    As it says here:
    Qur'an 4:089: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper

    And what about this quote, how do you feel about it?

    Qur'an 2:191: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

    And what do you think about the blatant demonization of Jews in particular in the quran and other highly-regarded muslim texts?

    Ishaq:240 "The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people
    Qur'an 17:7 "We shall rouse Our (Muslim) slaves to shame and ravage you (Jews), disfiguring your faces. They will enter the Temple as before and destroy, laying to waste all that they conquer."
    Qur'an 59:17 "Both [Jews and Satan] will go into the Fire of Hell, dwelling therein forever. Such is the reward of the Zalimun (disbelievers and polytheists)."
    Last edited by 外国人; March 30, 2012 at 07:35 PM.

  18. #686
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shaheer's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    Quote Quote:
    Qur'an 4:089: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper
    this verse is not talking abt apostasy rather its talking about the non believers, i am not particularly clear abt this verse if i find the exegesis i ll post it.
    but as far as i know its not talking abt apostates

    Quote Quote:
    And what about this quote, how do you feel about it?

    Qur'an 2:191: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
    I feel that you should stop visiting Hate sites when you want to learn about a particular religion instead try the source.
    try the verse before it to get an answer
    Quote Quote:
    surah Baqarah chap 2 :190. And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.
    the hadith subsequent to the verse of fight is Never kill elderly or children or women.
    and the verse was revealed IN THE BATTLEFIELD, when the fight was ON the Muslims, Thats when the verse was revealed to slay the ones who fights you not every passerby who is a non muslim in the street. The verse is talking abt war, nd thats not self orchestrated ratehr when defensive measures are necessary
    what else do you propose when say a foreign country comes to invade yours and rape your sisters and mothers?
    give hamburger pizza and sodas to them or fight back?
    Quote Quote:
    Qur'an 17:7 "We shall rouse Our (Muslim) slaves to shame and ravage you (Jews), disfiguring your faces. They will enter the Temple as before and destroy, laying to waste all that they conquer."
    where did you get this rubbish translation?
    Quote Quote:
    Surah Al Israh chap 17 verse 7
    (And We said): "If you do good, you do good for your ownselves, and if you do evil (you do it) against yourselves." Then, when the second promise came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to make your faces sorrowful and to enter the mosque (of Jerusalem) as they had entered it before, and to destroy with utter destruction all that fell in their hands.
    Quote Quote:
    Qur'an 59:17 "Both [Jews and Satan] will go into the Fire of Hell, dwelling therein forever. Such is the reward of the Zalimun (disbelievers and polytheists)."
    primarily you are misunderstanding the scripture, the verse says Both not Jews
    secondarily both the Jews and the christians consider US muslims as non belivers who will dwell in hell fire. Christian Dogma asserts that the sacrifice of the lamb is the article of faith on which one can reach paradise so we the Musilm who believe otherwise are going to hell
    same with the Jewish tradition even though there is a big similariy between the commandments to the 10 given to Moses in the Torah Yet we are considerred as non believers by the Jews as we are from Ishmaelites where as the covenant according to the TaNaKh is to the Issac, ergo we are not the chosen people
    so another reason for us to go to Hell in Jewish tradition
    Y then should Our traditions consider both christian an Jewish followers as people who will go to heaven ?
    the key to heaven is primarily the belief in One god as the first commandment says in deutronomy(if i remember my bible) lord God is one
    and along with it the prophethood of the Prophet Muhammed (saw) is to be affirmed
    as Jews dont so they are non belivers
    same with the christians and hindus
    if we are not given the leasure of walking n the kingdom of God if we dont believe in the dogmas of OT and NT Y is it that we are expected to give the others that accolade?
    firther more Even the christians and Jews are not compatible with each others belief, the OT NEVER claism that God is triune
    in Gospel of John in the Logos of Philo we see the Word is given tremendous importance, the Johanine in 1 John 5:7 which is not presen in the present day Bible (NIV) claims that there are 3 that bears record in Heaven
    if you dont believe me check the King james ver
    this belief is strictly non Jewish as neither the Torah nor the Talmud affirms such, so to each others they are non believers
    Jews dont believe in the sacrifice of the divine so from christian belief too Jews are condemned
    and according to Judiac traditions so are the christian and Muslims
    so whats all problematic with Quran?

    Quote Quote:
    Ishaq:240 "The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people
    it would be helpful if you give me the exact quotation
    i couldnt find it, may be i am mistaken but i ask you to double check given that you have made some serious mistake with the translation concerning chapter 17



    thank you
    Last edited by shaheer; March 31, 2012 at 12:23 PM.

  19. #687
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    religion just damages people! look at how many deads it has been making. is it really so important to die? were those who invented it so smart to be right? I won't believe that,as Martin luther said,I refuse to agree with people who have changed sides so many times!

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shaheer's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    Quote Quote:
    look at how many deads it has been making. is it really so important to die?
    well this is nt an argument, the second world war possibly the bloodiest in the history has NOTING to do with any religious issue it was a secular war (had no religious ulterior motives) the cold war following it is another example of peoples oppression which has nothing to do with religion.
    The purge of Communism where religious minded people were killed right and left was done by people who didnt believe in God
    The nationalistic chaos and war one of which MY own country suffered and left behind thousands and thousands of dead had nothing to do with religion
    if you want to point at the death and then say religion is bad then its not possible. Because lately most of the war comes from secular reasons like nationalism or war plays by powerful nations etc.
    its the disposition of man to wage war,
    yes religion is used as a tool sometimes but that doesnt mean that the religion is bad, you need to look into the religion to see whether this is being sanctioned by the religion or is it being done by the ppl who has their own act to grind

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    Magma♥ MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Akainu's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    In the light of current festivities, I'd like to know what meaning Jesus and especially his crucifixion has for the non christians, especially on the personal/feeling part, not as much what is written in the books - that is if you want to talk about it


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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shaheer's Avatar
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    Re: Religious Discussion and Q&A Thread

    Well as a Muslim i submit to the view that Jesus was not crucified, the Quran is perfectly clear when it proclaims that Jesus was not crucified hence no resurrection.
    and i feel the need to add that Jesus is claimed to be as a prophet in Islam not as a God
    Jesus Moses Muhammed Abraham Noah Jeremiah John the baptist ect are all prophet in Islamic views
    God becoming ManGod to redeem sins is absent in Islam.
    Quran speaks almost in similar language as the Old testament says in Ezekiel that if a wicked man turns away from the sins he will be forgiven (paraphrasing)
    nd hence repentance is from ones own self not from a vicarious atonement(in Islam)
    Last edited by shaheer; April 11, 2012 at 04:08 AM.

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