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Thread: Big flaw in argument

  1. #46
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner
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    Re: Big flaw in argument

    I think you guys are missing something very important in this argument: DNA!

    let me clarify- Diseases(non-genetic, not diabetes, sickle cell, etc.), scars, wounds are NOT recorded in our DNAs but I believe age is (not 100% sure about the age thing.) Therefore, it is possible that gantz uses DNA to replicate bodies and hence no dieases or scars or wounds on the new body but the age remains the same. So if in fact Sakata's organs damage are simular to rapid aging, they wouldn't be any better after replication.

    I tend to believe that sakata is better and don't realize it yet.

  2. #47
    ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つMOLLY༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member
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    Re: Big flaw in argument

    No, Sakata's organ damage is from using his telekinetic power too much and it has caused damage to himself because of it. This doesn't have anything to do with his genes.

  3. #48
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Big flaw in argument

    [QUOTE=Cyphus;496824]I think you guys are missing something very important in this argument: DNA! Let me clarify- Diseases(non-genetic, not diabetes, sickle cell, etc.), scars, wounds are NOT recorded in our DNAs but I believe age is (not 100% sure about the age thing.) Therefore, it is possible that gantz uses DNA to replicate bodies and hence no dieases or scars or wounds on the new body but the age remains the same. So if in fact Sakata's organs damage are simular to rapid aging, they wouldn't be any better after replication.QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by xi0 View Post
    No, Sakata's organ damage is from using his telekinetic power too much and it has caused damage to himself because of it. This doesn't have anything to do with his genes.
    Both of you are partially right. Sakata's organ damage is due to his telekinetic power, but even Sakata says that his organs have aged like an old man's. Aging is due to these things on the ends of genes called telomeres, which slowly grind down until you die of old age. Maybe Oku knows a little about genetics or maybe you have to just go with it, but if Gantz does use genetics, how does that explain the guy with cancer being fine? That shouldn't be correct.

  4. #49
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    Re: Big flaw in argument

    No, it IS correct. When someone has cancer, only the actual tumors and cancer cells' DNAs are mutated, the rest of the body(along with DNA) are not changed. Thats why you can stop cancer spreading by only removing the affected cells. If the cancer DNA is in cells of the entire body, it would mean that its one giant tumor. Therefore, when a cancer patient is cloned via DNA of the healthy cells, the clone would be cancer free.

  5. #50
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Hollow Kurono's Avatar
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    Re: Big flaw in argument

    ^ok doc,u proved ur points but this was a mistake by Oku,cause i dont think Gantz would take a guy who died from cancer,well he heals everyone when someone comes into the room,but gramps died of his own problems,he wasnt ran by a train or fell from a clif,this was just a mistake by Oku.Cause when u say died from inside,well he died,Gantz like gave him another chance to life which he didnt deserve.But actualy when u look at "stupid nOOb" he like had some missions before when he said his organs are bad,so it may mean that hes organs are definantly going old,but i think its a mistake by Oku also,when a Gantzer comes in he is always ready to roll.
    Last edited by Hollow Kurono; August 21, 2007 at 01:31 PM.

  6. #51
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    Re: Big flaw in argument

    What makes you think that Gantz only revives people that deserves an other chance at life? As far as I can remember, all we know is that Gantz somehow copies people about to die, regardless of how they were about to die. Gantz' motive is unknown, you can't assume that it's based on morals.

    I don't think DNA explains it. Gantz can copy them from a specific time. DNA can't explain that. If he/it copies them through their DNA, they wouldn't be in the exact position they were when they were copied. Nor would they have their memories (or so I believe, I don't know all that much about DNA). Memories are made out of experience, not DNA. So if Gantz copied their DNA, they wouldn't remember anything at all. Or am I wrong?

  7. #52
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Hollow Kurono's Avatar
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    Re: Big flaw in argument

    i didnt say they deserve a second chance,mind da fact i didnt say anthing with anyone deserving anything,Gantz is like a second chance thats what i said and if u think about it ull get da picture.

  8. #53
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Big flaw in argument

    Quote Originally Posted by ollson View Post
    I don't think DNA explains it. Gantz can copy them from a specific time. DNA can't explain that. If he/it copies them through their DNA, they wouldn't be in the exact position they were when they were copied. Nor would they have their memories (or so I believe, I don't know all that much about DNA). Memories are made out of experience, not DNA. So if Gantz copied their DNA, they wouldn't remember anything at all. Or am I wrong?
    Well, DNA or healthy cells could explain it. Memories are just altered connections in your brain cells for storage and retrieval, but DNA is the trigger that activates that function in your cells. You can think of it like this, nerve cells are computers and DNA are the fingers that is helping the cells record and store the info. It's more complicated than that, but it kind of helps people get the main idea of it.

    So, as long as Gantz had a recent sample of healthy cells or DNA, than the person could remember things up until they became unhealthy, or dead.

  9. #54
    Scanlator 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member manu's Avatar
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    Re: Big flaw in argument

    Here's my two cents.

    Ok there was talk about Gantz curing some old man's cancer right? Well we all know for a fact that Gantz can implant bombs into peoples brains, so I assume that he can peform any sort of surgery he wants. A player who has cancer isn't going to fight so well so I assume that Gantz surgically removed it the same way he surgically inserts his bombs.

  10. #55
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    Re: Big flaw in argument

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollow Kurono View Post
    i didnt say they deserve a second chance,mind da fact i didnt say anthing with anyone deserving anything,Gantz is like a second chance thats what i said and if u think about it ull get da picture.
    Well you did say "gramps died of his own problems,he wasnt ran by a train or fell from a clif" and "Gantz like gave him another chance to life which he didnt deserve."
    Sorry if I made a mistake, but that was the way I interpreted what you said.

    Thanks Captain Marmoset, I didn't know that.=)

  11. #56
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Hollow Kurono's Avatar
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    Re: Big flaw in argument

    ^oh yeah,but i mean it in a differant way,he died from his own problems,noone killed him it may seem he killed him from inside,hes organs and all that went bad,ah man i dont know what to say about that old fart anymore.

  12. #57
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Goto's Avatar
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    Re: Big flaw in argument

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Marmoset View Post
    Well, DNA or healthy cells could explain it. Memories are just altered connections in your brain cells for storage and retrieval, but DNA is the trigger that activates that function in your cells. You can think of it like this, nerve cells are computers and DNA are the fingers that is helping the cells record and store the info. It's more complicated than that, but it kind of helps people get the main idea of it.

    So, as long as Gantz had a recent sample of healthy cells or DNA, than the person could remember things up until they became unhealthy, or dead.
    The changes of your body can't change your dna(nuclear radiation may can), so as your dna doesn't get changed if you get an arm chopped it doesn't change if your connections in your brain cells bla bla bla.
    So since your dna is the same if you have some memories or have not them dna alone can't be used to restore memories(neither your body since you don't get fat or thin or long-short haired because of your dna).
    I don't think every single brain cell have every single "data" every single cell have so just a sample of a single cell just isn't enough.
    (but gantz just isn't real, so "it" may really use dna or such to "summon" them)

    In fact i don't think we'll ever get able to know such a thing.

    For the sakata-cancer man thing, assuming(hypotesis) that gantz doesn't "heal" them in a way to not let them die for old age related stuff as a routine(like summoning their missing parts) gantz may simply haven't discovered sakata's illness(it, gantz, is not 100% correct allways) or maybe it doesnt heal thing since they're mortal(with body parts as a strange exceptions, even if we don't know if you-know-who will get his precious fingerback after this mission).
    We don't even know for sure that old man's cancer has completely gone(i0ve never had cancer but i'm not sure that you can surely notice it when it's in a non-lethal stage), and since sakata doesn't seems to be going to die very very very soon because of it gantz may have just left him as it was.
    Last edited by Goto; August 22, 2007 at 08:05 PM.

  13. #58
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Big flaw in argument

    Yeah, you're right. It doesn't actually matter. It's a comic, so you just need to go with the flow of the story and not always worry about specifics.

  14. #59
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Amnesiac's Avatar
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    No copies in here

    As promised earlier, I'm making this thread to show beyond doubt, through logic, that gantz players are the "originals" and not copies.

    I'll start by establishing a some facts:

    #1 - Nothing is instantaneous, a movement may be so fast that it seems instant, but still takes a measurable amount of time. So when gantz is "teleporting" the players, he's literally sending them: breaking them down in small parts and sending them to the room/mission, where the small parts are put together like a puzzle, everything happens quickly and in a seamless manner.

    #2 - Matter/Energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

    #3 - Inside the blackball there's just gantz, the machinery that connects him to it, the guns and the suitcases. (i.e. inside the ball there isn't matter enough to create a human being)

    #4 - When a person dies and appears in the room, their "remains" at the place of death also disappear. (kishimoto is an exception to this rule)


    Now let's use kurono's and katou's deaths as an example. There are 2 possible scenarios:

    A - They got copied:
    A fax machine can't work without paper so gantz had to send in matter from somewhere to create the copied bodies (refer to #2 and #3). Also, (remembering that #4; and since #2) gantz had to send somewhere the corpses of the originals.

    B - They got sent:
    Gantz sent their bodies to the room and rebuilt them as they were previously to the gore (just like it happens at the end of missions).

    Scenario A involves gantz sending "matter1" from the station to somewhere, and also sending "matter2" from somewhere to the room. Scenario B involves just sending matter from the station to the room.

    Occam's razor will tell us that scenario B is more likely, B is also more efficient and so is the logical choice for gantz.


    There, now I can go to sleep.

  15. #60
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Hollow Kurono's Avatar
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    Re: No copies in here

    Yep youre right,i want it to be this way and it is this way,good thing you werent lazy and made this,props.

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