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I think that he could have been sent to earth to investigate and capture the renegates. However , he either decided to stay with them (couldn't betray his friends , i think he's that kind of man)or was framed by Aizen and forced to stay.
I think he was given the same kind of replacement body as Rukia, the kind that makes you human after awhile when he fell in love.
Correct me if I 'm wrong , wasn't kisuke working on that special body when he left SS.
Last edited by seya; October 30, 2008 at 03:21 PM.
1st possibility is Isshin being a former Royal Guard member.
In the gaiden Kirio Hikifune of the captains was leaving to fulfill a position in the Royal Guard. Why would they need to fill up a RG position since the King is in another dimension, completely safe? It could be that Isshin, left the RG and went to Earth, or was banished.
This would mean that he was a captain long time before Shinji cause he couldn’t recognize him. How did he know Urahara?at that time he just became captain and he didn’t developed the gigai,cause we can safely assume that he has a gigai…..
2nd theory start from Hitsugaya. Hitsu is the actual 10th division captain. He bacame captain around 20/30 years ago. Everyone knows 3 methods to become captain. Assuming assume that he didn’t kill the previous 10th captain….one theory can be that 10th was Isshin.
I'm thinkin that because is 20 years that he didn’t use his shinigami body,and 20 years is like 10/15 years in SS.
The fact that Shinji didn't recognize his reiatsu---Ishida Ryuken know him and quincy are human----Ichigo's mother died around 10/15 years ago---would put him on being captain before those 20\10 years......the problem here is…why Rukia didn’t recognize him???
First theory we have seen,it’s to him to be former 11th captain.Shinji addressed the former Kenpachi as a dumbass(sound like Isshin)and we didn't see him.
The fact that Shinji didn’t recognize him can be put aside in this moment.100 years is a lot…..
So actually the theory is 11th Isshin-----someone-------Zaraki……
I’m saying that cause Isshin knows both Aizen and Urahara.
Zaraki killed the previous Kenpachi and became captain when Tousen and Kommamura where already captains. I’m not sure about Gin and Byakuya,so it has happened between 100 years ago and 50 years ago……
Around 50 years ago,Rukia and co became shinigami,but Rukia didn’t recognize Isshin…
Also a minor fact: after the Vizards,Aizen has to become captain so probably he did the Taichou test.I think that he did it with Old Kuchiki and Isshin himself.
Why?because I expect Aizen to have killed Kuchiki and forced/deceived Isshin in a way similar to what he has done against Urahara(maybe cause one day,they could understand kyouka suigetsu)….
This would explain why he knows Urahara(gave him a Gigai) and Aizen,but he wasn’t recognized by Rukia…
Also the fact that a persons with a gigai don’t get older(vizards)…..
I think is very possible that Isshin lives in the human world from a lot of years,using his shinigami power like Ichigo is doing and at a certain time like 20 years ago,was forced to keep them secretly or put them away….
Now the two question are: how did he manage to come back in a shinigami body?how could he say he was preparing for the war with Urahara when for the last 20 years he didn’t use his shinigami body???
The answer can possibily be the shinigami//quincy war….which could have been between 100 and 60/70 years ago or around 20/40years ago……
We don’t know a lot about that,but it’s a fact that both Mayuri(probably captain at that point of the story) and Szayel Apollo Grantz……experimented on Quincy’s….
Isshin knows Ryuken=Quincy=human so probably he has between 30\50 years old…
We know that Uryuu studied with the granpa and he is around 15 years old….so the father had already given up on being a powerful active Quincy.
This make me think that both Ryuken and Isshin in different manners where forced in the war and knew each other.
I can see something like that: SS couldn’t keep up with the number of hollows on earth(secretly sent by Aizen),Quincy “helped” but they broken the balance between the two world,the war started,Mayuri experimented,Aizen infiltrated his arrancar so Szayel caught a lot of Quincy,Urahara\Yoruichi\Isshin already on earth tried to save the situation fighting the arrancar(not recognized by SS as Aizen allies),maybe they fought side by side with a young Ryuuken while SS was exterminating the Quincy……something happened,shinigami win the war,few quincy left,Isshin forced to hide(for 20/30 years) cause someone has seen him(Aizen or some shinigami???)….If it was Aizen,I think that they managed to escape but…Aizen wanted revenge….and what’s better than sending a couple of hollows\\arrancars to kill their beloved ones??
We didn’t see Ishida mother,even in the backstory,didn’t we?Is this the reason for Isshin to not come out from his gigai and for Ryuken to not fight anymore???protect their sons and family?is this the real reason for Ryuken for not wanting Uryuu to become a Quincy??
Even if it's only speculation I think it could have gone like this.Ryuken don't want Uryuu to be in the war,but know both Ichigo and Uryuu are involved.
This would explain also Isshin going to Ryuken during the hollow/arrancar attack...
Last edited by Yans86; December 08, 2008 at 09:46 AM.
I dont think shinji would have failed to recognize isshin if they had meet or had been captains at the same time before. I dont know what ishin's backstory is but I think that he was a captain from kyorakus, ukitakes, and unohanas generation. He has to be pretty old if even shinji doenst know who he is. Considering how shinigamis age, I dont think it is crazy to think ishin is that old.
I hope it's better now
People born and growth ni SS get old,but people that before were human,arrive to SS at their age of death.....like the baby Ichigo and Chad saved..
Last edited by Yans86; December 08, 2008 at 10:00 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Well we know at the very least that Isshin and Urahara have a link through that Gigai Urahara made for Isshin. This was shown when Urahara commented on how he hopes Isshin doesn't blame him for the decrease in his powers(if there were any ).
So we can assume that at least they know each other from the "business" they had concerning Isshin's Gigai.
Now the question is whether or not this relationship goes past that...
I believe it does. From the way they spoke, they seem like old friends so I'd think they knew each other prior to Urahara's defection from SS i.e. they didn't meet in Karakura town after both of them were exiled. This makes sense since that'd mean that Isshin would have been walking around without a Gigai up until Urahara was exiled, which makes no sense since he'd be spotted by hollows(unless he was that good at hiding his reiatsu but then why bother with the Gigai if he was that good).
So now it comes down to the timeline really. It seems as though Isshin might've been the first prototype guinea pig for Urahara's new Gigai(the one he eventually gave to Rukia). In the flashback cahpters, we were shown that Urahara had been working on that Gigai, so that means he'd have known Isshin prior to becoming a Captain. That begs to wonder when Isshin was a captain(since he has a captain haori). It must've been prior to Shinji's time if Shinji doesn't recognize his reiatsu, but then if Urahara knows him, that must mean that either Urahara is older then Shinji OR that Urahara met Isshin after the latter's exile(meaning they somehow met after Isshinw as "demoted").
About the exile,I think that u can't be exiled as a soul/shinigami in the human world,cause u would live there just killing hollows without beeing noticed by humans.....kill hollows is SS work so this don't make really sense..I don't think either that he lived in the human world for years or hundred years without contacts...
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.01/03/ This is the beginning of the gaiden when Urahara became captain,story went on a straight line until he asked Mayuri to be his Vice..
Then we have this http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.05/01/ which says 9 years after Urahara became captain...and here the new gigai when people started to disappear http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.06/10/ which is the one used for the vizard and Isshin...
How do we know that is the same of Rukia? Aizen stated that http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/15/ . Even if he is not talking about how he deceived Urahara,he is stating that the untrackable gigai deteriorate a shinigami power and posibly transform the shini--in a human...
I think Isshin were very close to becoming human for two point: 1)His spiritual pressure deteriorated 2)A gigai is not a human,but he could have children with a human
Urahara states that he hopes Isshin's decrease in power won't be blamed on him here. He then asks Isshin how it feels to be in a shinigami body after 20 years, which means that he wasn't in a shinigami body prior.
Now what could link Urahara and the fact that Isshin wasn't in a shinigami body? Well a Gigai of course! This also correlates as to why Urahara even mentions a "decrease in power" since the Gigai Rukia had was commented on making your shinigami powers reduce with time.
This would also explain as to why nobody ever sensed Isshin in the human world(since the Gigai would hide his reiatsu) .
It also explains his lineage actually. Ichigo is the most "pure" shinigami out of Isshin's 3 children since he came first, when Isshin's powers weren't as diluted by the Gigai. As time passed by, the Gigai further reduced Isshin's powers and Karin ended up being able to only see Hollows and Yuzu can only sense Hollows.
As for why ishin lost his power, IDK. The only thing I think it is safe to assume is that urahara was involved in it because of the statement "I hope you dont blame me for your decrease in power". Probably urahara did with ishin something similar to what he did to ichigo during SS arc.
Also, I still think ishin is REALLY old, probably as old as kyoraku and ukitake. That would explain why no one recognize his reaitsu. It would also explain why ichigo hasnt been linked in any way to a former soul society captain. If an invader has the same last name as a former captain, wouldnt it be reasonable that at least someone comments on it? The only way for someone not even suspecting a connection is that the former captain in question is so old that no recent shinigame can actually make the connection or that kurosaki isnt ishins true name.
Also someone comented that if ishin died at that age he would go to solu society and look the same age but the thing is that we dont know if ishin was ever human at all. For all we know ishin was born in SS.
It's more like:"you wanted that gigai and u knew what were the consequences so don't blame me"....but in a joking way....
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/241/10/ Ryuken called him Kurosaki and he asked why?cause he never used this name to call him....
Isshin could have passed a lot of years as a fodder shinigami for his laziness and maybe one day he decided/was forced to become captain....what if he has been captain for just few years???
Also the appearance....the fact that it was human is a possibility.
Not necessary he has to have Kyouraku age or were to have captain from the time there were only Kyouraku/Ukitake/Old Yama/Unohana.......from what we know,Old Kuchiki is from Kuchiki house (born SS),but he wasn't captain at the time of those 4 guys,even if his appereance is quite old..
Well, while I agree that I can't say 100% sure Isshin used a Gigai, it's obvious that Urahara did something as to either hide Isshin(and therefore reduce his powers) or simply he was the one who restored Isshin's powers(assuming he somehow "lost" them).
Another point to note is that Urahara states Isshin hasn't been in a Shinigami body for 20 years. 20 years...that's not so long ago now is it? How would that fit into the whole timeline?
The key element here would be IMO to realize the circumstances of Isshin's current residence on Earth. Is it due to an exile? Did he chose to leave? Was he stationed there as a Shinigami and decided to stay?
The answer to this context would help set up the rest of the elements because there are many outcomes depending on that mere fact.
As for the kuchiki thing; being young is not nesesarly a requierement to be captain. Fr all we know byakugas grandpa was older than kyoraku or uktake or as old as yamamoto and was stll chosen to be captain even with his old age long after ikitake and kyoraku became captains.. Again, a dude shrouded in mistery, anything is posible.
Ishida dad was surprised his pwers returned. That means that he wasnt expecting such a thing, meaning that at least he wasnt in a position similar to rukias. IDK if it was because of a gigai or not, but since it would be lame for the reason to be a gigai, I daresay the reason as no that.
Last edited by kkck; December 09, 2008 at 02:14 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Oy oy Kkck, normally you write more clearly than that, what happened? lol (no offense meant, just noticing >.> I'm sorry if it sounded offensive )
Anyways, it's hard to say at this point what happened with Isshin.
Urahara states Isshin abandoned his Shinigami body and hasn't been in one for 20 yeras as shown by this link. Therefore, what kind of body was he in prior to that event? The choices are either human(which means he'd have some kind of situation like Ichigo does in the real world) or some form of a Gigai. These are the two biggest and most obvious cases of how Isshin's situation could've happened.
But now there is another factor to come in. Urahara notes that there might be the presence of a decrease of Isshin's powers. Now, from what we know, not many things actually decrease a Shinigamis power. Urahara's prototype Gigai(the one he gave to Rukia) was said to constantly drain your reiatsu and eventually you would lose all your powers as shown by this link. Therefore, the assumption that Isshin was in a Gigai similar to Rukia's by Urahara's doing isn't illogical. The fact that nobody ever sensed Isshi's reiatsu int he real world(up until that episode) seems to imply this fact as well.
If anything, I don't really understand any other point of view entirely, and they seem less probable, but they may be possible.
Now, the "20 years" part comes into play. The exact circumstances as to why and how Isshin left the Soul Society would be key to understanding his current situation.
For example, Urahara states Isshin hasn't been in a Shinigami body for 20 years, but why would he need to "not be" in a Shinigami body? Would it be to hide from SS or Hollows? If it's the latter case, did he run away rather than being exiled like Urahara(SS knows exactly where Urahara is)?
I know that is not the age the principal factor to determine if weither or not you r going to be captain :-D
About the gigai,Aizen to stated that the untrackable deteriorate a shinigami power and "eventually" u become human....maybe eventually cause no one for the moment became human in this way...
The way Urahara asked to Isshin...how do u feel in "returning" in a shinigami body?make me think that he has done it voluntary.....
I know Ryuken said that he losed his power.It can be very possible.But what if he lied to him?
If he had lose his power,how did he know when Kon was in Ichigo's body??
Also,how did he manage to come back in his body at the right moment to save Kon from the arrancar?
The problem with Isshin also in the manga is a fluctuation....I don't know how to explain that....
20 years ago he lost/faked lost his power
10 years ago,her wife was killed by Grand Fisher
ALready 10 yearswithout power/using a shinigami body.....what's the point in saying,I couldn't save her from the arrancar????Did he lost or did he have his power???
Okay,let's assume that his power were fading........at the beginning of the manga he couldn't see Rukia not either the hollows,and he didn't defend his family.......then few time later again Kon started to get in Ichigo's body and Isshin said that he knew he was Kon...
So Isshin...have u lost your power or not?
I would like to say that Ichigo reiatsu re-awakened his power in a certain way like for Chad and Inoue,but grand fisher was already attracted by Ichigo reiatsu when he killed his mother...
Why didn't grand fisher finish his job?he had just killed a lady and he has only a baby in front of him....
How Urahara knew where Uryuu was regathering his power?
Well Isshin knowing Kon was in Ichigo's obdy might not have anything t do with actual powers, but simply his sense of intuition as Ichigo's father(honestly, Kon doesn't act as Ichigo that well IMO). Also note that Captain level Shinigami are very perceptive, not just on a reiatsu level, but on a conscious level. For example, Kenpachi was able to discern that the only 2 captains afraid of death were Tousen and Gin.
Also, his "inability" to save his wife might not be due to the lack of his powers, but simply not being at the right place at the right time. He said he was unable to save his wife, not that he was incapable of doing so. Therefore, I would assume that situation is more contextual than related to his powers.
Anyways, I agree that there seems to be an inconsistency concerning Isshin.
The only things we know for sure are:
- 20 years ago, Isshin was in a Shinigami body then swapped for another body
- this swap or some other event caused Isshin to lose his powers(as noted by Ryuuken)
- Urahara apparently had something to do with it since he notes that he hopes the return of Isshin's powers won't suffer a decrease due to him
- He wears a Captain Haori over his arm
Now those are the facts specifically stated in the manga. Whether or not they are true(for example Yans' above example of Isshin lying to Ryuuken) is another question though.