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How does figures from sales of both Superman and DragonBall/Z/GT have ANYTHING what so ever to do with who would win out of Goku and Superman. Nothing. Superman does far out weigh DragonBall in popularity by a milestone, but thats not what this thread is about.
It would probably be a draw if not goku would win. Simply because he arsnil is alot more than Supermans.
Speed - Faster than a speeding bullet
Strength - Pick up planes, stop meteors...
Heat - ...
Resistant skin (meaning he can take a punch) - Can be shot...
See through walls - Name says it all
Air blowing - Can blow alot of air out of his mouth
Speed - Well if he can move so fast that the normal eye can't see it as proven in DB that puts him on the same field as superman straight away. Not only that Gohan stopped bullets in the beginning of the Majin Buu saga (When he first starts high school) so that alone proves they can see AND move that fast.
Strength - can pick up cars and such id say this is either equal to supermans give or take some.
Resistant skin (meaning he can take a punch) - He's been shot in the dragonball series, sent through parts of mountains. BUT he can't resist much in terms of heat, cold and such as he does die in freiza saga. So physical attacks he's the same as superman, elemental he's far weaker than superman. But then in the movie 'Worlds Strongest' Gohan, is able to withstand the earths atmosphere along with Picollo and Kururin, so it would be safe to assume Goku can too. It's only something AT could answer.
KI Control (normal blasts, kamehameha, SB etc...) - No need to say anything
Teleportation (apart of ki and speed but a seperate thing) - This could be moving at the speed of light, as it stated in the trunks saga (when he visits goku for the first time) that you move as a mass of light. This is then shown in the first Broly movie. And the name 'Instant' means 'Instant'.
Martial Arts training - This is where superman sucks, Goku has a VAST knowledge of martial arts, superman is more of a street fighter whereas goku is a martial artist and probably a street fighter.
That sums up probably the main skills of both heroes. If you want your proof, use google or watch the show...It's all in there.
Also Goku can breathe in space...this is shown after the freiza saga, when vegeta is on the hunt for Goku to learn to become a SSJ. They are both in open space, on an asteroid and no breathing equipment. That means they can breathe in space (also shown when Nappa and Vegeta get out of there pods on there way to earth just after raditz saga.)
At the end of the day there both pretty much equal in everything they have, although Goku has alot more in his bag than superman does (skills figurative bag).
They both move so fast, heat vision and KI attacks would be useless, even in stant transmission.
There most likely wequal in strength, stamina and resistance so it would end up been a draw or lean towards Goku only because of the stuff he can do.
But you also have to remember...These two wouldn't fight each 'coz there both kind hearted. They'd go for a cup of sake instead!
p.s for all your proof go watch the DB anime it's all there.
And it only takes speeds of a few hundred miles per hour to barely register to the naked human eye.
Superman, who can move light speed, has the clear speed advantage against Goku.
Goku had trouble lifting a bus. I believe that Superman moved the moon.
That's a huge difference in overall lifting strength.
It's nothing special to be able to withstand it.
What exact scene are you talking about?
ty to CBG
Superman had trouble stopping the plane in Superman Returns, he wasn't exactly stopping it in an instant was he? Goku, if he went upto the other Super Sayain levels would be even stronger...Quote:
Erm if that was true we'd all be dead. The atmosphere surrounds the earth, and the lowest part of the Atmosphere known as 'Trotosphere' doesn't reach the earth floor. And im pretty sure the heat thats generated when passing through all the layers and heading into space is quite alot of heat... So i'm sure it's very hot.Quote:
The scene i'm talking about is towards the end of the second movie, when that robot heads into space and Kururin, Picollo and Gohan follow after.
You can't compare something like that, if Goku without having to power up all that much (if at all) can destroy a planet, i'm pretty sure if he blasted Superman with all of his energy he'd be a corpse! There no contest there. Especially when in the '86 re-write of superman can't survive a nuclear bomb unscathed. And since one nuclear bomb can't destroy the planet yet a blast from Goku can...He obviously dead man is Superman.Quote:
Whilst this is true your not taking into the account of how fast Goku is and possible scenarios, for example if it was a game of cat and mouse, Gopku would have a chance, where as if it was a fist fight they wouldn't.Quote:
Goku knows different martial arts, in the DBZ world, he's learnt the turtle hermits, Kami's and others (although most would be regarded as techniques).Quote:
When it comes to Superman VS Goku it's an impossible question to answer, not because there two unrelated characters. But because Superman is an ambigous character with alot of rewrites.
To begin with he couldn't fly, then he could, then he was invincible, then he wasn't by far, then he's invincible again. (Thats a summary) I've probably missed some out of his Timeline since the '30's.
first of all, lol.
that a thread like this even exists makes me laugh. in a good way ofcourse
and on topic:
the ONLY way for Goku to defeat superman is if he destroys the sun or kills him with kryptonite. thats it. superman is unbeatable in all other ways, period.
but goku on the other hand can be killed quite easily if you compare him with mister steel.
so the questions are really: does goku have kryptonite? is he strong enough to destroy the sun?
Can you provide scans of the contrary?
I said And it only takes speeds of a few hundred miles per hour to barely register to the naked human eye..... to explain that just because they sometimes move too fast to be seen, that doesn't mean that they are moving light speed or faster.
Why would we make things ambiguous by bringing in feats from three decades ago?
What do you call the air you were breathing to make your post?
Troposphere: From the Greek word "τρέπω" meaning to turn or mix. The troposphere is the lowest layer of the atmosphere which begins at the surface and extends to between 7 km (23,000 ft) at the poles and 17 km (60,000 ft) at the equator, with some variation due to weather factors.
For good measure.
That was my point.
Before the Crisis of Infinite Earths Superman was able to move planets. Writers for DC have slowly been giving Superman back this amount of physical strength.
Since Ki isn't technically "magic" - one of the few things that can defeat Superman- the Ki balls that Goku would hurl at Superman would probably just bounce off of him.
The main reason I think Superman would totally own Goku is the fact that Goku can't go 12 seconds in a fight without talking. I seriously think that Goku spends more time yakking then he does punching during fights. While Goku is talking about Superman's power level or something Superman would swoop in and ruin Goku's s@#t.
lets remove all the holds.....let both have a complete arsenal of....stuff... like superman's kryptonite resistant suit, and gokus balls (no pun intended...you seedy little prick!). this means that fillers are included....enjoy...
Last edited by Paper; July 02, 2007 at 09:54 AM.
Alright, paperboy, you're not helping...at all. If we brought in the dragonballs to the fight, what would it prove about either character? Nothing! It's like saying: "Who'd win in a fist-fight? Batman or Captain America? Oh, and Batman gets his gas pellets and gas mask."
And fillers can't be included, they're not canon.
If we use the fillers, then we might as well just start using fanfiction as proof.
Anyway, at every point it's been thoroughly contested that Superman is superior to Goku in just about every way, except for martial arts knowledge, which I have to hand to Goku.
When has Goku ever, EVER, shown strength levels beyond Superman's? When has Goku ever shown enough strength to move moons, and push planets? Oh, that's right, never!Quote:
Also...what's with the "withstanding the atmosphere" thing? That makes no sense whatsoever, since technically, every living thing on earth is withstanding the atmosphere. Hey look, that blade of grass is standing upright, I guess it's at least as durable as Gohan!
Last edited by KnightLancer; July 02, 2007 at 03:08 PM.
Not only that if flash can move that the speed of light and superman is slower than him, that means he can't move that fast.
So that doesn't mean they can't move as fast as superman does it? That just proves u need fast eyes to see it And not only that, that doesn't mean that's as fast as they can go Gohan could have probably gone faster if needed.Quote:
And what is supermans strongest moment? There are that many different versions and interpretations to superman that there is no single define strongest moment, unless it's that superman prime. It would then eventually go down to peoples opinions on which version of superman is the strongest. I'll admit, my knowledge of superman is limited to that of smallville, justice league and a couple of the superman movies. And if that's the case he really isn't as strong as everyone makes out.Quote:
But my point is on this part is that there is no defined strongest moment of Superman. In each version of him (by different writers/creators or whatever) his limitations change. So please do define supermans strongest moments.
Fair-do's but the atmosphere i'm talking of i'd assume is the Thermosphere.Quote:
And the Crisis of inifinite earths is? (i don't read the comic)Quote:
Magic has several interpretations in itself on how it is done. Some say its paranormal activities, other believe forces of nature where others believe it can be energy from the human body - Which is Ki (energy, charka which ever you go buy) they all result in the same principle just different explanations of it. So therefore Goku's attacks COULD kill him.Quote:
But lets say it wasn't 'magic' it could still kill him, Goku can deflect energy blasts up to a point where it's to strong for him, it's very safe to assume that rule affects superman as well.
The talking is not because he likes it but because Akira had to put fillers in episodes to drag them out so the Anime wouldn't catch up the manga. So that statements invalid in itself.
Well i'm not sure is superman has had fillers, but in dragonball z as stated already the fillers are extending fights and such and the garlic jr saga. hardly makes a big difference. But since Akira created dragonball and dragonball z AND he created the fillers they should be included as well. But it's safe to assume the strongest Goku is at that end of the pathetic DBGT supersayain 4 etc...So fillers wouldn't be of much help anyway.Quote:
I'll admit strength is leaning towards Superman, but not everythign else. No one can prove that either, and i don't mean physical evidence i mean in any theories. Superman can't move at the speed of light, Goku probably can't (unless using the instant transmission) but it doesn't mean he can't move nearly that fast or whatever. and his punches are sure as hell faster than supermans. In every show i've watched of superman and dragonball z i've never seen superman punch or kick as fast as Goku.Quote:
When did that need arise? I must of missed the time when Goku needed to push a planet or moon. But then again if he needed too, he could use his energyQuote:
Lmao you make it so entertaining. But i mean the upper atmosphere, you know the part where titanium is needed on space rockets and such so it can withstand the heat generated. It must get pretty hot up there so to withstand that amount of heat, you must be pretty tough skinned.Quote:
Where was it stated that they can't breathe in space? im curious. If that's the case then pretty much the whole of dragonball z is fillers simply because episodes were extended as the anime was catching up to the manga. Hence extra fighting scenes, longer power ups and taking as the person above mentioned.Quote:
Why can't filler be included in peoples judgement? It's happened thousands of people have seen it...I can half imagine theres been alot of Superman filler (don't quote me on that).
Besides the person who made the treat never mentioned filler or no filler.
Last edited by ronson; July 02, 2007 at 04:56 PM.
my job of ensuing chaos is complete *evil laugh*
Superman has gone faster than the speed of light. When he was under the control of Maxwell Lord and was fighting against Wonder Woman (whom he believed was Doomsday who had just killed Lois Lane) Superman fought his way to the sun and back in a little under 2 minutes. Light from the sun takes 8 minutes to reach Earth.Quote:
Proving that they can't not (note the double negative) do it isn't the same thing as proving that they can. Nothing has shown that DBZ guys can move anywhere near the speed of light barring teleportation.Quote:
It doesn't matter, since even under different writers, Superman is still the same character, in the same continuity.Quote:
Therefore, one takes the highest feats that Superman has accomplished, and since we are using current comic book Superman for this fight, we use his canon feats, not ones from crossovers like DC vs Marvel, but one's that happened in his continuity. Specifically, the comic books, not the cartoons or the movies. We do the same thing for Goku, taking his highest end canon accomplishments and using them in order to attempt to prove he's better than so-and-so.
A huge company-wide crossover event which occurred during the 80s, that took DC's multiverse and attempted to streamline it into one unified universe. Recently, the multiverse has made a return to the comics. The CoIE (Crisis on Infinite Earths) is most notable for resulting in the deaths of Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman, Supergirl, and most of all Barry Allen, the 2nd Flash after Jay Garrick, the Golden Age Flash.Quote:
True, but the question is if Goku can create enough force to actually do anything to Superman? Superman, who can fly through the center of stars, escape the gravity of black holes, and other crazy stuff.Quote:
I wouldn't really count the whole talking argument myself...Quote:
Toriyama didn't create the fillers, Toei Animation did. And we're not discussing animated Superman, we're discussing comic book Superman, who's in a different continuity than animated Superman, and is far stronger to boot. And I've already put up quite a few instances of Superman going faster than light. Hell, just his getting to Krypton's red sun, which is several light years away, in a fairly short amount of time inexorably blows Goku's speed out of the water.Quote:
Once again, saying things without having any evidence to back it up.Quote:
The thermosphere itself doesn't cause that kind of heat. The individual particles within the thermosphere are very hot, up to 2000 degrees C in fact, but the particles are spread out so thinly a normal person wouldn't even feel warm (in fact, they'd probably end up freezing to death...) Heating from re-entry is caused by aerodynamic heating, the friction of air particles against the surface of a spacecraft. Note these craft are usually moving at tens of thousands of miles per hour, which would generate massive air friction. So don't bring up stuff if you don't even remotely understand it. And by the way, Superman survives re-entry regularly, just look at the scan in page 2 (where Superman is thrown from outer space into earth with such speed and force that his impact actually causes an extinction-level event. His eventual emergence from the earth is shown in the subsequent scan.)Quote:
Er, all the time? Like when Frieza directly pointed out that he could breathe in space and would therefore survive Namek's explosion, whereas Goku wouldn't because he can't breathe in space. That was also the whole problem with wishing back Goku after the planet exploded (before they found out he was still alive). Because if they did wish him back, he'd be wished back where Namek used to be, and since Namek doesn't exist anymore Goku would just die in space. Why? Because he can't breathe in space. And considering Frieza more than understood Goku's durability at the time, it's fairly certain that was the entire point of blowing up the planet, so Goku would suffocate in the vacuum. And don't say "Frieza doesn't understand what he's talking about," the guy had saiyans working for him for years, it'd be fairly retarded if he didn't even know that his hired warriors could breathe in space or not. And by filler I don't mean "Extra punch added here" or "short fight sequence added after ki blast." I mean entire additional scenes that weren't in the manga, like Vegeta seeing Goku as a SSJ on Namek after he got resurrected (and yes, I took that from youtube, but it's still valid).Quote:
Because filler doesn't reflect Akira Toriyama's idea of the characters or their power levels.Quote:
It's just crap made by the animation company in order to fill time. It's practically fanfiction put on TV. And there's no Superman filler in the anime sense. Sometimes creative teams behind comics are delayed, and filler issues are published in their stead. However, these filler issues are still canon, which is more than can be said for the filler present in animes like Dragonball, Naruto, or Bleach.
For the sake of the integrity of the fight, and for the characters themselves, filler shouldn't count.Quote:
Last edited by KnightLancer; July 03, 2007 at 05:33 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
I don't think people realize how fast they were moving, because it's obvious the broke the sound barrier and infact maybe reached and surpassed light speed there have been fighting scenes in dragonball z in which two people are fighting, first a light appears then a sound is heard, clearly that means they've broken the speed of sound as the light can be seen before the sound. I'm currently in the process of finding some videos on youtube of this. Because no doubt some of you are goign to say "prove it"...
Is superman still the same character though? because his powers, history limitations etc have been changed alot of times. But then again that doesn't matter. Can you explain the word 'Canon' to me because i honestly don't understand it. Even the context it's in doesn't shed light. Although if what i understand of the word canon from other Superman vs Goku threads on different forums, people are contesting that in order to go by the canon feats you must talk about the original (i presume) superman from the '30s and the dragonball z manga NOT the anime. But until i understand this better i'm goign to leave it for now.Quote:
A huge company-wide crossover event which occurred during the 80s, that took DC's multiverse and attempted to streamline it into one unified universe. Recently, the multiverse has made a return to the comics. The CoIE (Crisis on Infinite Earths) is most notable for resulting in the deaths of Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman, Supergirl, and most of all Barry Allen, the 2nd Flash after Jay Garrick, the Golden Age Flash.
But does he come out unscathed?Quote:
For goku attacking superman:
I assume you understand the concept that strength = speed as the faster something goes the harder it is. For example throwing two identicle rocks, throwing the first at say 10mph and the second at 100mph, the second would do more damage because it's got that speed to add to the strength or density.
So by enforcing this concept you then have to think...Goku's strength + Goku's speed would make powerful punches for ANYONE. Any dragonball z hater has got to admit Goku has fast speeds when it comes to ounching and kick, something which far exceeds supermans.
Goku at his strongest can destroy planets with ease. There is no denying this. It wouldn't even take much of his energy. If Goku wanted i'm sure he could muster enough force to damage superman a fair bit (and in my opinion to kill hiim with ease)especially if magic is his weakness and the concept that magic is performed by energy from the body.
So for example (this is not a real counting system) if Goku's energy level was 1,000,000 at his strongest (obviously it far exceeds that) and it's say 2,000 to destroy a planet, how many planets is that in the end? 5000. Im sure even Superman would have trouble withstanding something like. Don't forget that was Freiza's inital energy in the Freiza saga, something of which Goku has surpassed by a milestone.
Please do the honours of picking all the dragonball and dragonball z fillers out. Let me know how that goes for you.Quote:
If you've watched the DragonBall/Z/GT Anime and/or read the manga then i wouldn't need to provide evidence.Quote:
Fair do'z i'll take a trip into space myself thenQuote:
I actually forgot about freiza saying that, heh. But at the end of the day it did happen in the anime, so therefore it can be used. And what about bardock in the movie and in the anime where he clearly breathed in space! Are you calling both of them fillers too? And the TV special was written by AT (http://imdb.com/title/tt0142245/ - look at the writer). Now i'll admit the following is taken off another forum: (i'm still not sure on the differences between the supermans meaning there strengths etc and which one it isQuote:
1) SSJ4 Goku didn't struggle to push that damn building, maybe you have something wrong with your eyes or something. Since you can't actually see his face or even his body properly for that matter (as the shot is from far way) , how can you even say he struggles?? What even makes that statement so retarded is that he lifts half the damn city a few seconds after that scene.
2)Where are you getting this he can move multiple times light speed in space rubbish. It took him over 8 minutes to get to the sun in OWAW. Everything was on the line . If he could have moved faster he would have. He can move 99% the speed of light (thats what DC says), he hasn't got a link to the speed force he's not the flash. Also Superman cannot stay in space forever, he can hold his breath for a long tme but he still needs oxygen eventually. As for whether Goku can, what sort of dumb question is that? Gokus father Bardock fought freiza entire army in space, Vegeta and nappa in space blow up a planet on their way to earth. Vegeta TRAINS in space (on moons etc) while trying to becomes a SSJ. Yes sayan can't exist without Oxygen forever but they can stay out there for a long time.
Also superman does NOT move at 99% light speed in atmosphere (I dont' where you get that from). I repeat he's NOT the flash. He can't control the effect of what his speed would do to the planet while going that fast (The flash can)
3)If superman can supposedly lift 40 billion tonnes (I'd like to see where btw). Then why in doomsday wars does he struggle (and yes he is struggling because you can actually see his face and he admits it) to stop an aeroplane from crashing? (and you think DBZ has inconsistances?) On the other hand Gohan before he became mystic casually in his base form lifts and carries a aeroplane full of people in the buu saga. Also Goku against Kidd Buu pushes a mountain apart with his bare hands (how much do they weigh?).
4) Big deal superman has punched a guy to the moon whoopedy do. Goku has Ki blasted a guy into the sun. Gokus 500 year old perverted sensei has blown the moon to kingdom come and you want me to impressed because supes made one split in half?
5)As for kryptonite, true enough Goku doesn't what it is. Even if he did he wouldn't use it because he loves to fight. Of course if he did have it he would go down quickly. In Doomsady rex when luthor locks boths doomsday and supes in a box and releases kryptonite radiation. Doomsday (who was also being effected) knocked out superman with one blow I think. As for supes being a battery yes true enough it is. But his power depletes depending on how hard his fight is. Against Goku he would have to go all out.
6)Yes true enough supes blocked the omega beams with his heat vision. But consider how A) Darkseid has been depowered ALOT since the early days B)Darkseid wasn't actually trying to kill him (he needed superman). Anyway whats heat vision going to do to Goku?? Goku fights that dragon whose body temperature is higher than the suns in GT and is able to hit him without physical damage while in SSJ4 mode.
and last of all if superman is so great than why did he get killed in obsidian age
But seriously though superman could win (he is superman after all) but I still give the edge to Goku. Martial arts technique can bridge the gap in strength (if there even is one)
http://forums.superherohype.com/arch.../t-127457.html (posted by GuyverJay)
Most of dragonball was written by AT just IMDB them (although admittingly i can't find dragonball z with the japanese credits) everything goes down to AT for the writer.Quote:
If Superman moved 4x the speed of light to fly back to Earth from the Sun, of course he would be moving too fast to be seen.
Like I said, you only have to be moving a few hundred miles an hour to not be visible by the naked eye.
That isn't even comparable to light speed.
Like I said before, at what point have we ever been led to believe that any DBZ character could move light speed?
If anyone in DBZ could move at the speed of light, why would it take so long for them to fly around Namek? Why did it take them so long to chase down the Androids? Why did chibi Trunks not reach his destination instantly when SSJ3 Goku distracted Majin Buu? Why have they struggled to reach their destinations in the series time and time again?
If anyone in the series could achieve those speeds, they would be able to fly around the Earth several times in the span of a second, without even breaking a sweat.
How could you even consider that they move light speed?
I just know how to disconnect from my fan bias while debating.
And Goku does have fast speeds, but Superman also rarely(or ever) has to fight someone that is skilled in martial arts and is strong and fast enough to trade punches with him.
Also, time and time again, Superman is much faster than Goku.
Goku would basically be committing suicide.
Haterade, I agree with you 100%. Goku may have martial arts training, but when it comes to raw power and speed the Man of Steel is the king. The guys in DBZ are fast, but none of them have gone 4 times the speed of light. Their max speed might be a bit over the sound barrier but not much more.
As for ki, saying ki is magic is a bit of a stretch. Even if it would harm him, Superman has survived worse (like being thrown through stars,flown through stars, etc...) and even kryptonite, his greatest weakness, can be tolerated by the Man of Steel. Just look at the movie Superman Returns - Superman flies and entire island of kryptonite into space and throws it out of Earth's atmosphere. He even survives this and recovers to full strength.
Also, the whole "goku can destroy a whole planet" argument is a tad flawed. Superman could easily destroy a planet, whether using his heat vision or just by punching the planet apart. He just has never done anything like that because it's against his motto to kill. In fact, we've never seen Goku or Superman destroy a planet to my knowledge. We only infer that Goku can because we saw Freiza and Vegita do things such as that and Goku has defeated both of them.
To destroy a planet with your average ki blast wouldn't be all too difficult (Vegita did it at power level 20,000 or so as I recall.) It wouldn't be so much about demolishing it all with one gigantic blast, all it would require would be a medium-sized blast (for someone of power-level about 25,000 I'm guessing) and to send it to the core of the planet, where it would start a chain reaction that would super-heat the planet's inner molten rock and cause it to explode. Then again, I am only speculating because I have no actual experience with blowing up planets with ki balls. This would be the smartest way to destroy a planet with a ki ball, in my opinion.
Anyhow, seeing as we can only infer that Goku can destroy planets because enemies he has defeated have done so, the same could be said of Superman, who has defeated Darkseid whose Omega Effect which has the ability to destroy matter.
Wasn't a personal thing, it was a general thing for anyone. I've noticed it's usually the Superman only people that reply to threads like this.Quote:
And just incase your implying i don't disconnect from my fan bias, i have. It's just i know little about this superman in which is been used.
Not to sound harsh with this but, if it hasn't happened it can't be used. There is no proof in this matter so no one can say he punches or kicks this fast. I suppose it'd be the same as me saying Goku is light speed. (I'm not trying to sound rude on this)Quote:
Because regardless of how durable anyone or anything is it CAN be destroyed. Using the logic i put no matter how durable superman is, he's going to get hurt. And as for that omega cannon thing wherever you mentioned it, i read on another forum that the person who fired it was pretty drained of his energy, that's why superman survived it.Quote:
You make it sound like Goku doesn't stand a chance what so ever, which if you are a DBZ fan you would understand that he would stand a very good chance because Goku may not be as strong as Superman, his punches would still hurt from the force, not to mention Goku's energy attacks which could be used inconjunction with instant transmission like in the Cell saga. So i think your underestimating Goku. Maybe your not totally unbias? o.O (not trying to make it sound person, just a psychology background)Quote:
Yes but your missing the point. With all the planets Goku could destroy channeling ALL of that energy into one blast would most likely kill superman. And i don't see Supermans heat eyes destroying a planet, it may increase global warming but that's it. But then again i'm not sure on this version of superman.Quote:
About energy and magic:
Manipulation of Energy. Also believed to be the manipulation of energy from the human body. Most commonly refered to by the useage of the hands while the mouth uses a comand of power.
Also my knowledge on science is very low. I'm not a sciencey person in the respects that i can't won't and hate physics and only learn that is needed when it comes to computers.
So is it post or pre superman?
Also sorry if any sounds rude it 5 in the morning and i'm tired
P.S Just for fun...http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/...+age_scale%3A5
Last edited by ronson; July 03, 2007 at 11:11 PM.