Translation Issue and Clarification/Translators Discussion: Tobi's Lines in ch 364

[ttxdragon]

Heyas everybody


This thread is supposed to bring some clearance on the Tobi is who issue that got out with ch364.
To be more exact, this thread shall be about the Pages 17/18 of Chapter 364.

One thing first:
This thread relies on the interpretations of translators and we would like for you to only comment if you have good knowledge of the Japanese language and trust yourself enough to translate from Japanese to English. Furthermore, please be as objective as possible; personal vendettas should not find a place in here and misinterpreting a line because one wants to have his own favorite theory or anything supported ain't great...
This ain't to keep people out of the discussion so much as to make this one an informative thread and not a debate of beliefs of fans of either theory.
Of course, if there are questions about the translation itself that aren't already answered feel free to post them here too. But be as exact as possible please.


Raw for Chapter 364 Page 17/18:


Translations of the lines of Chapter 364 Page 17/18:
Translation notes to be found after these translations

by Itsumobasho:

page 17
????: And when that happens, everything will go back to the way they should be.

page 18
Tobi: The real power of the Sharingan...
Tobi: The power... the power of Uchiha Madara...

by Hisshouburaiken:

Page 17:
???: And when they do, everything will be as it should.

SFX: Step

SFX: Rummmmmmble

SFX: Step splash

SFX: CRACKCRACKOOOM

Page 18:
????: The Sharingan's true power...
My power...Uchiha Madara's power...

by Iwanin and Nihongaeri:

Page 17.

Panel 1, Evil Mastermind.

そうなれば全てが本来の形に戻るのだ…

And with that, it will all return to its rightful state of being...

(*Lit. its original, unblemished form, for those who wish to look deeply into the line).

Page 18.

Uchiha Madara.

写輪眼の本当の力が…このうちはマダラの力が」

Sharingan will regain its true power... as will I, Uchiha Madara*!

Translation Notes/Comments by Translators above/out of the translators threads:

Comment by Hisshouburaiken:

The person in the Tobi mask at the end of 364 is, without question, Uchiha Madara.

Whether he is also the same goofball we all know and love, or if said goofball was just copying his look, remains to be seen.

Ji endo.

Translation Note by Iwanin and Nihongaeri:

*UPDATED AND VERY IMPORTANT NOTE. If anyone decides to use this translation for scanlating, I suggest the group retain the following explanatory note. Originally, I'd stated the line above was terminated in mid sentence, Nihongaeri's take on it (see his post below) made infinitely more sense than my own (God bless him!). Anyhow, basically what the character is saying is that once Akatsuki achieves its objective, Sharingan shall regain its original, ostensibly more powerful form, and thus, so will he, Uchiha Madara. In other words, among the things which will regain their original form are the Sharingan's true power and his own. 全てが本来の形に戻るのだ。, where 全て ＝写輪眼の本当の力やうちはマダラの力など。As for whether or not the character speaking is Uchiha Madara, as to this, there is no doubt. This part, このうちはマダラの力, has been construed by some to mean "this power, the power of Uchiha Madara." They're reading it like this: この　うちはマダラの力。The way they should be reading it is like this: このうちはマダラの　力。When この precedes the name of a person (in this case, Uchiha Madara), the person referenced is the speaker himself. It's a way for the speaker to indicate that he or she is a real big deal (in his or her mind, anyway). And no, it's not a "vague" sentence, or one which could be read both ways: the way we're indicating here is the only way to interpret the sentence, at least as far as whether the speaker is Uchiha Madara or not. Whether Madara is possessing someone else's body or if Tobi's just a robot through which his voice comes out,is another matter altogether.

for further translation explanation notes on Iwanins and Nihongaeris interpretation, please read the first page of this thread:
http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16010
It has much info on the reasons for the interpretation.


If I missed any essential translations or comments, feel free to post them here but remember not to discuss the translation/interpretation issues in case you don't have a good handling of the Japanese language and how to translate it into English.


I hope this thread will help clarify this issue a bit for everyone.

[Tsucchi]

man im studying Japanese, im a little noob in translation (im italian and english is not my mother language), but i know some of the standard way of the Jap lang.

for sure i can translate this in the right way:

このうちはマダラの力

This この (kono) it's referred to the name Uchiha Madara and it's the way the Japanese people say when they want to speak about themselves.

So there is not interpretation on this sentence, like Iwanin and Nihongaeri says in their note.


Hope to be help

[hamstar]

I'm pretty sure you can't tell based on those 2 lines if tobi is madara. I showed this to my friends that are Japanese. We all came to the same conclusion that you cannot know for sure if tobi is saying that he is madara or if he is saying he has the power of madara. These are two different things.

For the people that dismiss this quickly I will ask you why is there even a DEBATE about this topic to BEGIN with? If it's a simple translation I'm sure we would of all came to the same conclusion but we havent. That alone should cast some doubt on the situation. Tobi's words are not clear cut. It's definately vague and there isn't enough information yet. That's why this thread exists am I right?

[ttxdragon]

I was as free as to quote the following conversation from the thread which features Iwanins translation, as it gives a good lot of more explanation to the translation made by Iwanin and Nihongaeri, though here explained by Nihonjintaylor (njt)

写輪眼の本当の力が…このうちはマダラの力が」

Sharingan will regain its true power... as will I, Uchiha Madara*!

*UPDATED AND VERY IMPORTANT NOTE. If anyone decides to use this translation for scanlating, I suggest the group retain the following explanatory note. Originally, I'd stated the line above was terminated in mid sentence, Nihongaeri's take on it (see his post below) made infinitely more sense than my own (God bless him!). Anyhow, basically what the character is saying is that once Akatsuki achieves its objective, Sharingan shall regain its original, ostensibly more powerful form, and thus, so will he, Uchiha Madara. In other words, among the things which will regain their original form are the Sharingan's true power and his own. 全てが本来の形に戻るのだ。, where 全て ＝写輪眼の本当の力やうちはマダラの力など。As for whether or not the character speaking is Uchiha Madara, as to this, there is no doubt. This part, このうちはマダラの力, has been construed by some to mean "this power, the power of Uchiha Madara." They're reading it like this: この　うちはマダラの力。The way they should be reading it is like this: このうちはマダラの　力。When この precedes the name of a person (in this case, Uchiha Madara), the person referenced is the speaker himself. It's a way for the speaker to indicate that he or she is a real big deal (in his or her mind, anyway). And no, it's not a "vague" sentence, or one which could be read both ways: the way we're indicating here is the only way to interpret the sentence, at least as far as whether the speaker is Uchiha Madara or not. Whether Madara is possessing someone else's body or if Tobi's just a robot through which his voice comes out,is another matter altogether.

You know, you should learn, us naruto fans are an odd lot. We take things very seriously, and very literal.

To the sentence!

There is no verb. None. There should be no added verb in the sentence. It makes no sense to add one, infact it skews the meaning.

The two lines, as seen above:写輪眼の本当の力が…
このうちはマダラの力が

NO VERB.

Where did regain come from?

I can understand trying to imply that he is Madara, but I'm not buying it based on the simple "kono." I dont, and wont agree with it until there is clarification.

I'm sorry if I'm comming off a bit rude, but I think I do have somewhat of a point.

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=14

read that post^^

Just so there isn't any confusion... I'll explain.

そうなれば全てが本来の形に戻るのだ…
Here he's saying EVERYTHING will return to its rightful state of being.

He then goes and clarifies it. It being Japanese, the subject (which was announced in the previous sentence and thus understood) is omitted.
写輪眼の本当の力が[本来の形に戻る]…このうちはマダラの力が[本来の形に戻る]」

Hope that clears things up for ya^^

I read that post, but I'm still not seeing it. I see the "soon all our goals will be achieved." then "and when they are everything will be as it should" but still the following two phrases are the same... lacking a verb like "regain." You could go on to make an implication that he's referencing the following two phrases after that, but that would have an entirely different meaning than before.

1) Soon our goals will be achieved, and when they are everything will be as it should... the sharingan's true power.
2) Soon our goals will be achieved, and when they are everything will be as it should... uchiha madara's power.

It makes it sound like Tobi is trying to restore the true power of the sharingan by obstensibly resurrecting/awakening/creating uchiha madara, not that he is Madara himself.

The parts you aren't seeing are the "ga"s ending at the end of the sentences.

This is what tells us he's still talking about what is returning to its rightful state.

そうなれば全てが本来の形に戻るのだ
Here he uses Subete Ga, I highlighted it in red to get your attention, but let me elaborate on it further.

Him just saying Subete (everything) leaves a lot to imagine. So, as any villain does, he goes into more detail


写輪眼の本当の力が[本来の形に戻る]…このうちはマダラの力が[本来の形に戻る]
I also filled in the blanks because, now I'm not going into an assumption, it's taken straight from the previous sentence THUS why I know

The way it is phrased would be incomplete / no one would know what he was talking about if he didn't say what he said in the previous sentence.

So say japanese people were talking about the same thing, they'd naturally ask what he means by everything... anyways it'd go something like this:

すべてが本来の形に戻る (EVERYTHING will return to its rightful state of being)
すべてってなに？ (What is everything?)
すべてって、　写輪眼の本当の力、うちはマダラの力。(Everything is "His sharingan, His power".

Anyways, it may be hard to grasp the whole trailing GA thing, but honestly this is what it's referring to^^.


And on another note, the "kono" can't mean a person other than him, unless the body was laying right in front of him and he was pointing at it saying "Kono uchiha madara no chikara". Even then, I doubt he'd use kono.

[Fiddle]

I may not be as good as you guys in japanese but I'll atleast give my oppinion about this:

first a quote:

man im studying Japanese, im a little noob in translation (im italian and english is not my mother language), but i know some of the standard way of the Jap lang.

for sure i can translate this in the right way:

このうちはマダラの力

This この (kono) it's referred to the name Uchiha Madara and it's the way the Japanese people say when they want to speak about themselves.

So there is not interpretation on this sentence, like Iwanin and Nihongaeri says in their note.


Hope to be help

I would say this is a little wrong. It's true that when he talks about "この" he's talking about himself. BUT, here comes my point. うちはマダラの力 which means he isn't talking about うちはマダラ but about his power (力).

like this sentence: さくらの木 (sakura no ki = cherry blossom tree), the sentence isn't talking about "sakura" but about the "tree" which is now explained as a "sakura tree" because of the "の".

Ok, we continue with my point. In a later picture you see his Sharingan. Could this mean that he's reffering (この, he's clearly talking about himself) to that he posseses the sharingan (力) which orginates from うちはマダラ? (because it was うちはマダラ's power from the beginning)

PLZ tell me if you think it's wrong and why it's wrong. I'm still studying it here in Japan so ^^

[Iwanin]

I may not be as good as you guys in japanese but I'll atleast give my oppinion about this:

first a quote:



I would say this is a little wrong. It's true that when he talks about "この" he's talking about himself. BUT, here comes my point. うちはマダラの力 which means he isn't talking about うちはマダラ but about his power (力).

He is indeed talking about "power" ... what were saying is that, in Japanese, as a rule of interpretation, when the name of a person follows "kono", that person is necessarily the speaker himself. "Kono person name" means, always "I, person name." Never will it mean a third person, ever, nor will "kono" modify any subsequent element in the sentence, such as power.

Thus, the way the sentence would look if you were to omit "Uchiha Madara" is not "Kono chikara", but "Watashi no chikara" - Watashi needed to replace "kono Uchiha Madara."

私　　　　　　　　　　　の　　力
このうちはマダラ　　の　　力

As to why この うちはマダラの 力 ( from which we get この　力 by omitting うちはマダラ)is not possible as an interpretation, the most we can do to convince anyone is to point to the rule of interpretation above, and say, as Nihongaeri did, "trust us" - we're not making this rule up.

Hope this post helps.

[jedi423]

I may not be as good as you guys in japanese but I'll atleast give my oppinion about this:


I would say this is a little wrong. It's true that when he talks about "この" he's talking about himself. BUT, here comes my point. うちはマダラの力 which means he isn't talking about うちはマダラ but about his power (力).

like this sentence: さくらの木 (sakura no ki = cherry blossom tree), the sentence isn't talking about "sakura" but about the "tree" which is now explained as a "sakura tree" because of the "の".

Ok, we continue with my point. In a later picture you see his Sharingan. Could this mean that he's reffering (この, he's clearly talking about himself) to that he posseses the sharingan (力) which orginates from うちはマダラ? (because it was うちはマダラ's power from the beginning)

PLZ tell me if you think it's wrong and why it's wrong. I'm still studying it here in Japan so ^^

If Tobi just wanted to refer to the power of Uchiha Madara and not refer to himself as Madara, he would have left out "この" before his name.

うちはマダラの力 = Uchiha Madara's power (but not "my" power)
このうちはマダラの力 = I, Uchiha Madara's power (implying that he at least thinks he is Uchiha Madara).

[Iwanin]

If Tobi just wanted to refer to the power of Uchiha Madara and not refer to himself as Madara, he would have left out "この" before his name.

うちはマダラの力 = Uchiha Madara's power (but not "my" power)
このうちはマダラの力 = I, Uchiha Madara's power (implying that he at least thinks he is Uchiha Madara).

うちはマダラの力 would have indeed conveyed a very different idea, i.e, Uchiha Madara's power.

The same idea would also be conveyed by "うちはマダラ　の　この ちから,” arrangement which would have left little doubt that the speaker is in possession of someone else's power (implying he's not Madara). That Kishi didn't use this last arrangement when he could have, provided the speaker was not Madara, is telling itself.

[Shunran]

I totally agree with Hisshouburaiken. We should consider two points:

- The use of "kono" is typical of a boastful kind of speech, often found in villains. Tobi is saying he's Madara Uchiha. No doubt.

- The use of "ga" as a particle in the end of a phrase... If you have a fair amount of experience in translating japanese, you may have come across it quite often.

[woefdram]

don't forget that kono is a combination of ko (right here) and no (one), so literally it could be translated into "The sharingan's true power,the one right here uchiha madara's power"

[Nihongaeri]

don't forget that kono is a combination of ko (right here) and no (one), so literally it could be translated into "The sharingan's true power,the one right here uchiha madara's power"

It's already been addressed in this thread (so please do read all the posts if you haven't), but this is not a possible translation. The "kono" in this case is not to be translated as "this", "this one right here" or any other such permutation (the "ko" from "kono", BTW, does not exist as a separate word in modern Japanese). It is instead something that is added before one's own name (or a first person pronoun) to add an air of arrogance or otherwise suggest that you are a "big deal".

[woefdram]

i am well aware that ko is not a seperate word in modern day Japanese but i wasn't aware of the fact a that it was mentioned before in this post. Sorry about that

[Gold Knight]

Moving to Toshokan, since I think this discussion belongs better there. (Library = Research, etc.)