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This is what i do to make it all make sense...
The manga started after they got back from the Soul Society. The SS arc DIDN'T HAPPEN. Ichigo never beat byakuya, or Kenpachi, or anyone else.
And why do i say that??? Because the VERY SAME Kenpachi that ichigo defeated with a SHIKAI (not even getsuga), could probably beat his BANKAI'D VIZARD FORM.
And the same Byakuya that he defeated with bankai, would probably fuck him up.
I've said it once, and i'll say it again. Kubo made his captains weak, and didn't like it, so he powered them all up.
Kubo made ichigo's bankai strong (and speed based), and he didn't like it, so he slowed him down.
Kubo made Hybrids the ultimate beings, and didn't like it. So he's made every arrancar so far get their shit rocked by shinigami.
I'm starting to think that if kubo could go back in time, he would change alot in Bleach.
But alas, this is still my favorite manga.... by far!
Um....yeah they have one week time periods to make new chapters, sometimes he draws ahead and most times manga artists draw within the week. so the drawing art is pretty good for what the squished into as short as possible time span manga producing process is. seriously they have drawing, editing, some clean it up on their computer, more editing, sending, approving, publishing, printing, mailing(for subscribed people)all in one week.......every week manga artists get worked to death by their editors and time constraints which is why they often take breaks and holidays off for specific weeks. cough Golden Week cough.
About Ichigo being speed based, why is everyone making this a issue. As the story progressed, more stronger enemies came into play. Sonido came into "existence" and basically the enemies are either on par or stronger than ichigo. not only that, but...........
First of all what you said about his bankai being faster than flash steps and sonido, um his bankai he uses flash steps so his bankai can't be faster than flash steps. it basicaly increases his speed and ability to use flash steps. byakuya's bankai isn't speed based like ichigo's so his speed probably stayed most likely the same if any minimal increase was made we don't know. He only initially used his bankai against byakuya so he can only be compared to byakuya. so he is maybe faster than byakuya's flash steps, but since when has he tried his flash steps against others?
Oh wait this is the good part. He used it against the arrancars and it was like nothing. Then again zommari was "the fastest sonido user" even though it's obviously stark and byakuya didn't beat zommari by "haxx" anyway his win was legit so no argument there.
Now you said Ichigo's flash steps was faster than sonido........................um when in the soul society arc at all was sonido used? it was only used after they came back from soul society. I think the only good it did was when yammy got his arm cut off when he wasn't paying attention although thats no excuse for yammy. props for ichigo.
and i don't remember grimjow using it on him when he came to the real world so basically it was in hueco mundo when ichigo first saw sonido, and speed isn't all that matters in enemies, even if his oponet was slower if his opponet was stronger any other advantageous areas then speed doesn't matter. Not only that but like i said, his enemies were on par or stronger than him so thier sonido's rivaled his flash steps already coming back from soul society and going into huco mundo. remember how ichigo goes bankai for everything and still the arrancars easily caught up with him.
This is because ichigo's shikai nor bankai are fully developed. how can banki be any good without a fully developed shikai. KUBO WANTS MORE GROWTH TO USE IN THE FUTURE. be patient ichigo will learn more than just 1 MOVE in both Shikai and Bankai.
So since the arrancars kept up with ichigo in bankai, imagine how much faster they got when they used ressureccion.
Reguarding the vaizard mask. Who said it doubles his speed? It might just increase it a little. It might increase it alot, but who said double? Thats just assuming things. Even if his speed was doubled it doesn't mean he would have automatically beat the privaron espada, nooitora and ulquiorra easily. like i said opponets are so varied that speed doesn't always matter.
Basically about the mask, it was never clarified how much it even increased his power or how he beat the "11 second limit" or "regenerated the mask against ulquiorra"(although that one was self-explanatory). So why would you expect it to increase his speed at all. His bankai increases his speed. So besides, i remember hollows using sonido, not flash steps anyway. so a hollow mask increasing speed in such a way that i would make him unstoppable. we didn't see that YET and we probably won't.
the hollow transformation ichigo recently had USED SONIDO NOT FLASH STEPS.
Basically, ichigo's bankai "speed" was never a factor to consider in the first place. So i don't know why people bring it up in this current arc. he beat byakuya. yay for him being faster than byakuya. is he top tier in speed? we don't even know the full potential of most of the characters speed. so don't generalize.
Last edited by Revolation; May 06, 2009 at 04:47 PM. Reason: people misunderstanding what i say
Why is it so hard for you just say, "Yes, i agree. Kubo made Ichigo's bankai speed based and his speed hasn't been his advantage ever since" ???
I mean, kubo doesn't even agree with u
Last edited by WaveBossa; May 06, 2009 at 04:37 PM.
Don't know why the other guy doesn't get it. No one can deny that Ichigo's Bankai is mainly speed based. As you showed the page, even Byakuya mentions it. That is proof enough.
I think we assume that we are arguing two different things. We both know that Ichigo is no longer a speed demon.
This whole thing started when someone said that Kubo forgot that ichigo's main aspect about his bankai is supposed to be speed.
And that seems like a forgotten afterthought.
You say that it is because every other enemy has gotten faster, but then we have Byakuya (who ichigo was obviously faster than) out pace the FASTEST espada.
If it wasn't for that fight, i would have no grounds to argue with you on...
Even Grimmjow was faster than ichigo
Oh shit! I've been re-reading parts of Bleach (for the gazzilionth time) I noticed something I had missing this whole time.
When Ichigo first transformed into the horned hollow he had less muscle than what he had by the end of his fight against Ulquiorra. This could mean three things. 1: Kubo has no f**** clue what he's drawing (which I hope isn't the case). Or 2: Ichigo's hollowfication wasn't complete. 3: Hollowfication = insta buff? The second became obvious after he countered Ulquiorra's "Lanza de relampago" barehanded, but if my hypothesis is correct it's both 2 and 3 and he might end up becoming something akin to this (yes I know it's the same guy). Although slightly different with horns on his helmet-like "mask" and scythes for claws on his left hand (doesn't seem practical to have scythes for fingers but oh well, it is a manga so anything is possible) and of course the sun motif on his chest. What do you guys think?
Last edited by Zarion; May 06, 2009 at 05:23 PM. Reason: rushed the post
simply because downgrading ichigo's speed kind of makes the story lack consistency.
when ichigo's in bankai he's faster than byakuya.
and byakuya is faster than zommari, who claims to be the fastest espada.
so then ichigo should be faster than all the espada.
now, the problem is, that we can't really take what zommari says literally. arrancar constantly say things that end up being not true.
i highly doubt that he is the fastest espada (esp since stark popped in, grabbed orihime, and popped out in only a few seconds. and the distance he had to travel was pretty far)
BUT, if it's true that he is the fastest, than ichigo should be faster than him, which means he should be faster than any other espada.
once again, i'm not saying that he is, i'm just saying that if kubo wants his manga to be consistent then ichigo should be the faster than all of the espada... well, at least faster than them in while they are unreleased.
Ichigo was fast...but I don't think he have learned shunpo?or has see?....or is he just faster than shunpo without shunpo?...and was Ichigo outrunning Byakuya or was he just fast enough to outrun senbonzakura's attack?...and if I was not mistaken...Ichigo did become slower and nearly lost before Shirosaki take over in that fight...wasn't it?...
About Ichigo's speed. Sure, his speed isn't so big compared to these recent beasts. But I never saw Ichigo being so fast to seem like there are dozens of him after Byakuya fight.
Problem is that Kubo doesn't emphasize his speed enough. Not to mention that he should be a real speed demon when hollow mask is on.
It's like there's a severe lack of imagination when it comes to fighting.
Sometimes I wonder if the fights would have been more interesting if people in Bleach couldn't fly.
I agree, but the thing is that the byakuya vs zommari thing wasn't a pure speed battle. byakuya didn't win because of his pure speed. he won because of his overall skill. when a character in bleach beats another, it doesn't mean they surppased their opponets in all stats. sometimes it might mean that depending on the fight, but like i said, byakuya was all snebosakura ownage in the zommari fight.
Kind of funny how Byakuya was so fast, but his shikai or bankai didn't even use his speed.
Now what could be the solution to this problem? Hollowfication, Ulquiorra did say that Ichigo merely mimicked hollows when he donned the mask. So how would Ichigo mimick a hollow then? By condensing his spiritual preassure even more, allowing him to use his powers more efficiently although still being limited by that same spiritual preassure. Now what would happen if he condensed it even more (like what happened when he transformed during his fight against Ulquiorra)? He would get even faster, that's what would happen. So Ichigo is and will always be the speed demon of Bleach. No matter how fast anyone else is, Ichigo will be capable of overtaking that someone as soon as he learns to condense his spiritual preassure even further (lol, meaning he's either bound to turn into an orb of pure spiritual energy or blow up taking half a world with him sometime in the future. Or better yet, he could turn into a black hole).
Last edited by Zarion; June 21, 2009 at 06:20 AM. Reason: spellcheck