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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
Dear Bleach experts, please evaluate the following point:
As we all know, kubo tite paved the road for many concept
and as our knowledge of the bleach world increase, there are many more details
that remain to be grasped and understood.
Please refer to episode 8
Full Quality episode is preferred:
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The scene is about 20 seconds long and happens at the very beginning of the episode.
It starts in Hueco Mundo, as expected everything is scaring dark...
Suddently 4 shadows surged from the dark clouds and litterally appear on the top of some mounts,
again they do not come and only set up on the top of their mounts, but they appear
in the very shuunpo way of a capitain level or sonido of an arrancar.
That signals at the very least high skills and abilities,moreover i do not recall any hollow nor menos mastering that in the next 100 episodes.
Back to the scene, the shadows are shown successively on their mounts and they are cristal clear human sized three of them even weir a cape!! another one is clearly recognizable as an adjucha.
It doesn't end here...one of them is shown at the screen his mask is broken and the third of his face is visible, his eyes and hair are blue and he is clearly human.again I do not recall to have seen a hollow with a visible face in the next 100 episodes not until artificial arrancars were created with Uharara's hougyoku by Aizen. The only occurence is Nell in the current HM arc, which let's suppose that that little natural arrancar kid may have etremely powerfull relatives such as natural arrancar Vastolords elders...
As side point, that little girl is only a baby and is already able to stop a cero.
and how could she survive alone in the cruel Hueco Mundo world...
Back to the scene, Grand Fisher make a glance at them with his shinning evil red eyes and say that "he will go"-presumably attack ichigo-.
Remember Grand Fisher, the all powerfull hollow that escaped the shinigami for 50 years and that killed ichigo's mother.The later one makes the oppening of the HM arc and come back as an artificially transformed arrancar.
Before being slashed by Ishin-who recovered his powers- .
By the time we saw the episode 8 nothing would have ring a bell because of obvious lack of knowledge on the matter. but my point of view is that, as we have learned on later episodes, powerful hollows can eat and create subordinate who will obey their orders.
Thus, the meeting and the answer of the Grand Fisher strongly suggests that he has received an order from higher level hollow...Vastolord hollow; they are clearely human shaped and dressed with a cape,they do appear in skilled way (shuunpo) , and one of those Vastolord is a natural arrancar...
Hmmmm...So many things in 20 secs. Kubo Tite you are crazzy
whom is the face of that guy? does anyone recognize him? even in espadas? i just can't tell who he is...
any comments are welcomed
Last edited by boubi; August 19, 2007 at 08:21 PM.
Well, it's always been fairly clear that Kubo has had a long term gameplan. I think arrancar and vizards were intended sooner than they were delivered though. The arrancar subplot created right after grandfisher is defeated (manga only), plus the apperance of shinji on the very first bleach front cover? There is always going to be minor indiscrepancies between the manga and the anime. The anime is after all, an adaptation of an author's work.
In truth, i dont know how much creative control kubo has over other mediums beyond his manga work. It's obvious he had input into some of the video games, based upon the fact that kaien shiba ended up wielding the same trident zanpakto as he did in one of the video games: Nejibana. So it's a tough call there.
However, on to your thoughts regarding this moment. I believe the theory is moderatly solid, ( i cant check exactly, as i dont have direct access to episode 8 right now, and i'm not going to bother with the download:P) But for one point. The grand fisher was never an adjucas. In both anime and manga, during his "fight" (lol) with isshin, he only says that he cannot be grouped with the likes of menos. He considered an arrancar to be far superior to menos...which is fairly true in quite a few cases. However, given the slow way grandfisher speaks, his intelligence level and his size, i would say he was only gillian level. It is highly unlikely that he was ever at the level of adjucas, along might have had the potential to go on, given he retained a personality (of sorts). Also, he was way too big to be an adjucas. Based upon our current understanding of the information available, adjucas are smaller than gillians, but considerably smarter and more powerful, and generally control a few lower level gillians. (histugaya's explanation of menos classes)
I think at the time we originally see grandfisher, he is a normal hollow that is just incredibly powerful, perhaps nearing gillian level.( It states during the scene in which iceringer takes grandfisher's mask off, that he didnt use the majority of his power) Ichigo could not have beaten him had it not been for some interference within that fight (ala rukia vs arronnio...cept that was more a case of outright arrogance than interference XD).
I think the scene we see is merely a collection of more powerful hollows that are around at the time, and is a scene that can't really have much taken from it, rather just an arc that never was expanded upon or took place. Bleach as we know it only really took shape during SS arc. You've got to remember, early on, the gillian that was fought by ichigo was stipulated to be a rare hollow that was called a menos, and was a more unique species. Rukia also had considerable healing abilities, given she was able to heal ichigo's near fatal wounds from the grandfisher fight. So...perhaps it's unwise to try and infer anything futuristically about a half formed arc that was revamped and picked up in a different form much much later in the manga.
Yeah, in the anime, they looked like some kind of arrancar or something, one of them looking like he had Ulquiorra's head-spikes. I guess Kubo would foreshadow, sure. I mean, if you get the VERY first chapter, on the color page, Shinji's there.
True GrdFisher is not an adjucha but only a very powerful hollow. I have erased the line where it is stated...
but it is not the point.
There is no theory, but just an interesting fact to see based on what we now know about the story.
Second, you may be right or wrong who know what kubo has in his head,he may foreshadow.
But again here is not the point of my post.Speculate on the passage being an arc that never took place we have no mean to assert that except asking to kubo himself.
Rather I would like you to see the video.
And only then give your answer on an objective basis and on what we now know about the history.
To my mind
I just came to the conclusion that they were vastolords.
Last edited by boubi; August 20, 2007 at 07:08 PM.
Akhem first check if this is in manga, i couldn't find it maybe you will tell me the number of chapter/volume is it?
And what i can say about it, one hollow in big zoom looks like iceringer other like d-droy with his hat.
Sorry, perhaps i should have been more specific. I mean i didnt have the anime video on hand directly for a comparision.
Doesnt mean i've not seen this scene multiple times. In fact, i've also looked over this particular one in detail when i first learned of the original arrancarization of the grand fisher, in the manga.
I looked back at this scene specfically to see if D-Roy was in it at the time.
The main point i was trying to get across was that this scene was more or less a leftover of an unexpanded story arc, and that we're really not supposed to take too much from it. Backed up by this, i also stated that bleach as we know it only came to fruition during the the SS arc.
To further back up my statement as to why i didnt believe they were vastrolordes, i stated that initially the menos class was depicted by kubo to be more uncommon than they are now. Note the comment during the episode the gillian class menos breaks through into krakura, initally.
Rukia mentions that the department of research and development had "him" under control (lunar sub), "him" referring to the gillian class menos, which at the time might have been intended to be the strongest class of hollow. However, post SS arc, we have kubo offer up two stronger classes, possibly to make the strength of these new adjucas and vastrolorde classes seem monstrous compared to the strength of the captains that ichigo has faced during the SS arc.
Lastly, after the scathing misinterpretation of my comment, i did check the video after my getting my bleach CDs back from a relative. Now, looking at this piece, the only thing we do have is a group of oddly shaped hollows similar with spikes and such. May i remind you that our depiction of what an adjucas looked like during hitsugaya's explanation(obviously of yammy) was not the be all to end all style of adjucas, as shown by what grimmjaw looked like as an adjucas.
I'd also like to make note that it would seem from grimmjaw's flashbacks that most self substantiated gillian class menos dont have the same grim reaper look as their brainless normal gillian cousins, but rather their own individual look and set of abilities. If they all looked the same, it would be hella boring :P
I've followed bleach pretty damn closely methinks. Read the manga right through four times, seen all the anime episodes at least two or three times, and i'm currently considering doing some fanfiction that will include a fair bit of this hollow based trivia. Bit hard to do as well, considering that kubo has a knack for changing around a few perceived facts if it better suits his story to drop a bombshell or cliffhanger. Note that in grimmjow's flashbacks, we've got his little gillian underclass infering they reached ajuchas level, and at some point reverted back into gillians, but without losing their personality. If there's one thing kubo does do a little bit of, it's plot holes
From all that, i have learned this: We can only take it as it comes, and attempt to use what we know as a basis for future prediction. This can't really hold up against a construct bound to a set of rules. In this world, kubo can change the rules as he excercises creative control. We still dont know how the SS captains are going to take on the power of the arrancar and eventually a vizard aizen. For all we know, yammato will pull down a hollow mask :P
Last edited by Vegetoacs; August 20, 2007 at 07:21 PM.
I am appreciative of that constructive post and i have understood your point
I do believe that the part of spontaneous creativity vs planned scenario is hard to assess.
It is true that in the SS arc kubo have described gillian as to be the strongest class of hollow but on the other hand they also used the term "menos + grande" , which per se strongly infers other classes of menos at least not "grande". While it is true that kubo may just have spontaneously broadened the class of menos to Adjucha and vastolord for the HM arc, it is also possible that this was very planned and that for the purpose of the history he was not willing to reveal every detail at the beginning and that he made a strong point on the power of gillian to keep the intensity of the action.
Again speculation...seeing shinji at the cover front of the first chapter he may already have the concept of vaizard, and probably adjucha and vastolord...we don't know.
you made a good point! Grimmjaw is kind of different of what i would have think an adjucha be. Although his shape is asthonishing it stays within the boundaries of Hitsugaya's description, Adjuchas are smaller in size than gillian, have a more human shape and are much more smarter. Grimjow's shape is the one of a leopard so clearly not a human shape but it is still smaller and relatively closer to human shape than many more bestial hollows.
What we know for sure is that Vastolords are human shaped,there is no mistake possible on the nature of a vastolord,and the rule is most likely to be followed in the manga. but as you said kubo can changes rules as he excercises creative control...
PS: lolYama-jii pulling a hollow mask THAT would be a chock!....nee he is too conservative to share his soul with an inner hollow
Last edited by boubi; August 21, 2007 at 05:46 PM.
There's a theory that vastroordes(sp?) have a powerful soul at their core which allows an adjucha to ascend to vastroode. So it's possible they saw Ichigo as potential for ichigo's soul to be core of one.
Or it's also equally possible everyone is overanalyzing 20 seconds of film....
I was doing some research on the Vizards (The Masked Army) and found that there was a drawing of Shinji in the very first chapter Bleach. Look next to Rukia on the right, ITS SHINJI!!!
I don't know if this has been brought up before, but I found it cool that Kubo had Shinji already in mind and he had it all planned out the whole time.
I would like to hear your theories and thoughts on the subject, plz feel free to comment... :P
Last edited by Tha Uchiha; April 13, 2008 at 11:27 AM. Reason: Renamed the Thread
as far as i can actualy give a theory:
kubo did have rought ideas for the whole bleach story (and i will say rough!), he was planning to give ichigo shinigami powers AND introduce him to shinji for some new form off powers not being shinigami.
it is actualy a good thing that such things happen (planning forward by atleast 100-200)
I believe that Kubo had everything planned from the very beginning. Examples or hints to the arrancars and vizards have been given early in the story like that Shinji pic you posted and when it was shown that Grand Fisher was treated by Iceringer after his defeat against Ichigo (Iceringer is the arrancar that Ishida fought when he first entered HM).
The negative chapters currently running provide answers to the hints sgiven in the story so far and this supports the belief that Kubo had it planned out before he released his first chapter.
I also believe that the source of Ichigo's special powers were planned early. The reason I think so is because Urahara wasn't surprised when he met Ichigo but rather tried to test the limit of his power like when he put a binding spell on Rukia so Ichigo would fight the Menos Grande all by himself and when he stopped Jinta and Ururu from killing Ichigo in the underground pit when his initial transformation was howllowish.
I'd like to agree with Silhouette, but I just can't at the current point of development in Bleach.
Kubo surely had a small plot drawn out, one that involved arrancars at an early point.
But shinji... no... I think this is another case of "Idea had, but no possibly to put in because of the editors of WSJ". To note this: Artist don't have 100% freedom of choice when it comes to their stories in WSJ either. They are subject to some urls and to editors of WSJ.
We got with this pic at least 2 instances where the happens that occurred in bleach aren't fitting in.
#1: Shinji. A character he planned but never was able to bring into the storyline until ~190 chapters later.
#2: Grand Fisher... How he got that huge form compared to the small form he had after arrancarization in direct follow-up to the 6/17 arc, nobody knows. There's even one of Grimmjows Fraccion in the picture as an arrancar... I would still like to know what took GrandFisher that long... He seemed hell bound on attacking ichigo. He waited for about a month for attacking Karakura Town... after he got stronger. How was he, who already was arrancarized and one of the lowest of the low, to get worked upon with the hougyouku when he was supposed to search out ichigo? Iirc, he had no connection to aizen at all. Aizen would've blabbed about this awesome grandfisher who killed so many shinigami too. Not only about that shinigami-eater in SoulSociety.
Not to mention the whole bankai-deal that was just created to say "Kenpachi is the strongest, but people with Bankai could still win or be stronger. But remember that that isn't their bodily power~!"
Which also led to the magical 3day-doll powerup and renji and ikkaku getting miraculously stronger... Ikakku fought with ichigo on 'equal grounds' until we later learn that he has bankai! Why did he not use it? So that he doesn't take away his captains prey? Or that he didn't feel like revealing it even though he's supposed to take care of the intruders?
It just smells extremely fishy.
Don't get me wrong, I really love bleach. I'd love for it to have been planned out totally. But... I think the real 'planning out' all started at the Quincy arc earliest, where Kubo had already had the guarantee that he was allowed to continue writing his story and that people liked it. It's somewhat like what happens with many WSJ manga.
You often see a manga taken a turn for more serious themes or for the better at the point of vol6-8 since then they get green light to incorporate major arcs: meaning they lived long enough to build a fanbase which prevents cancellation.
Shinji (and the young matsumoto on the left of the pic) are likely characters he wasn't able to incorporate there and recycled when he went into planning for SS arc and the followup.
He fought Ichigo on equal grounds. The match was pretty much even until Ichigo finally took him down. That's a perfect reason for why Ikkaku didn't use bankai - he fights for fun, and if he's already equal to his opponent, dragging out his bankai for a quick, unceremonial overkill really doesn't make much sense for his character.
On topic, though, surely Kubo had somewhat of an idea when he started (i.e. Aizen, Urahara and all that stuff) but nothing really detailed. When I first plan out a story, in any case, the only things I have somewhat planned out at the start are the beginning, the end, and maybe one or two midpoint twists.
Personaly i think he must have had more of this planned than he lets on, manga's like naruto and one piece seems to go all over the place these days. They seem like there being dragged out just for the sake of more money, Kubo clearly knows when and how hes going to end this. As soon as i seen he was gonna count back exactl 108 issues i could tell he had planned way ahead, two and a half years from now we will see the end of Bleach is my guess. By the looks of things though it will be a glorious end! I never used to like bleach anywhere near as much as naruto but as it goes on it gets more interesting while still remaining full of action and the sly bit of comedy here and there. Its how Shnonen Manga's should be!
Most mangakas have a general idea of what they want to do before they actually begin writing the story. Sometimes mangakas make major changes to the story such as what occured for Dragonball and Slayers; but, generally, mangakas develop a basic format of what they want to do and adhere to it.
We have conclusive proof Kubo had some major stuff like Arrancar planned out because of what occured to Grandfisher shortly after Ichigo defeated him (removal of the mask). So, it is reasonable to assume Kubo had a pretty good idea of what he wanted to do before he actually began writing the story.