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Thread: What's the Winter War Going to be Like?

  1. #46
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: whats the winter battle going to be like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroff View Post
    "The power and forms of shikai and bankai are dependant of the soul cutters... they also vary according to the wielder's strength and training... but in general, one's power can grow 5-10 times greater." She is specifically talking about bankai's power.


    So going by your math, Ichigo would have been at around 100 BEFORE bankai, making him 500+ after he got bankai. With his mask, he is even higher. There is no way Ichigo is over 5 times as strong as a captain. Nnoitra should even be over 500, considering Ichigo's mask power increase. Yet here Kenpachi is, fighting Nnoitra evenly. The math doesn't work.
    1. She said power in general. Not bankai power

    2. This is the math Kubo presents us. If it's off, then it's a plothole on his part.

  2. #47
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Silhouette's Avatar
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    Re: whats the winter battle going to be like?

    It's getting way off topic. Please stick to the topic of making predictions about the Winter War. Feel free to search the biblioteca's index for topics about bankais power/usage or to open one if it's not already there.Thank you all.
    CLICK SIGNATURE ABOVE FOR BLEACH & OP COLOURED PAGES

  3. #48
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Neuroff's Avatar
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    Re: whats the winter battle going to be like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus-Tails View Post
    1. She said power in general. Not bankai power

    2. This is the math Kubo presents us. If it's off, then it's a plothole on his part.
    All you have to do is take out the middle of the quote to get at the true meaning. "The power and forms of shikai and bankai are dependent of the soul cutters but in general, one's power can grow 5-10 times greater." She is specifically talking about the zanpakutou releases, there is no reason to think she's talking about the user's power increasing. Ikkaku is a perfect example of bankai being what actually causes them to become stronger, because his bankai's power is actually to raise his reiatsu. He clearly had a huge power increase just from using bankai after his natural reiatsu was nothing.

    The fact that you can't get anything even close to accurate using math just proves that you can't use calculations to determine how powerful someone is. Are you really so stubborn that you have to call it a plothole just because it doesn't fit into what YOU think it should?

    About the "war" taking place now, it's clearly not a war. If the captains had come to kill Aizen now, Kenpachi would not have thought that he could do it alone. The real fight is coming later.

  4. #49
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    Re: whats the winter battle going to be like?

    I'm using direct information but it's me being stubborn? You don't know what stubborn means obviously.

    "The power and forms of shikai and bankai are dependent of the soul cutters but in general, one's power can grow 5-10 times greater."

    Let me break down the quote so you'll understand. She said the power and form of the shikai and bankai are dependent on the soul cutter. This is talking about the different effects. For example, Tousen's power from his soul cutter is to cut off the senses. Ichigo's power from the soul cutter is to increase his speed.

    The next part of the quote: BUT IN GENERAL, one's power can grow 5-10 times greater."

    Once she is referring to the individual UNIQUE power that will be granted because of your specific soul cutter, she then says in GENERAL. General means it's without distinction, means she's talking overall and not just pertaining to bankai and/or shikai. So IN GENERAL the power goes up 5-10 times. So everyone overall will have a reiatsu increase 5-10 times. Reiatsu is the general power of this manga. In addition to the reiatsu boost, THEN they get the unique ability of the soul cutter.

    Now, the calculations I used above are, as I said, applied straight from the manga info. so if there is anything off, it's a plothole because it's information coming STRAIGHT FROM THE MANGA.

  5. #50
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Neuroff's Avatar
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    Re: whats the winter battle going to be like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus-Tails View Post
    I'm using direct information but it's me being stubborn? You don't know what stubborn means obviously.

    "The power and forms of shikai and bankai are dependent of the soul cutters but in general, one's power can grow 5-10 times greater."

    Let me break down the quote so you'll understand. She said the power and form of the shikai and bankai are dependent on the soul cutter. This is talking about the different effects. For example, Tousen's power from his soul cutter is to cut off the senses. Ichigo's power from the soul cutter is to increase his speed.

    The next part of the quote: BUT IN GENERAL, one's power can grow 5-10 times greater."

    Once she is referring to the individual UNIQUE power that will be granted because of your specific soul cutter, she then says in GENERAL. General means it's without distinction, means she's talking overall and not just pertaining to bankai and/or shikai. So IN GENERAL the power goes up 5-10 times. So everyone overall will have a reiatsu increase 5-10 times. Reiatsu is the general power of this manga. In addition to the reiatsu boost, THEN they get the unique ability of the soul cutter.
    Yoruichi was talking about how the power varies based on the zanpakutou, the user, and how much training the user has done. Then she gives a range of how much bankai increases your power. In general is referring to the power increase of bankai. In general, it will increase your power by 5-10 times, but there are cases in which it is more or less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus-Tails View Post
    Now, the calculations I used above are, as I said, applied straight from the manga info. so if there is anything off, it's a plothole because it's information coming STRAIGHT FROM THE MANGA.
    The calculations are completely off, and you even admit it. You clearly used to believe that they were actually true, otherwise you wouldn't have said anything about it. Just because something doesn't happen exactly as you think it should doesn't make it a plothole. I'm not going to reply any more than this, it's completely pointless to argue with a wall.
    Last edited by Neuroff; December 08, 2007 at 06:14 AM.

  6. #51
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    Re: whats the winter battle going to be like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroff View Post
    Yoruichi was talking about how the power varies based on the zanpakutou, the user, and how much training the user has done. Then she gives a range of how much bankai increases your power. In general is referring to the power increase of bankai. In general, it will increase your power by 5-10 times, but there are cases in which it is more or less.
    Now you're just changing around her quote. I broke it down for you and your response is to change it around to fit your weak argument. All I can say is you need to refer to my post on how I broke it down. The only thing I can do is educate. Where the recipient wants to absorb the knowledge is up to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroff View Post
    The calculations are completely off, and you even admit it. You clearly used to believe that they were actually true, otherwise you wouldn't have said anything about it. Just because something doesn't happen exactly as you think it should doesn't make it a plothole. I'm not going to reply any more than this, it's completely pointless to argue with a wall.
    You clearly did not understand. How is 20x5 = 100 an off calculation? Of course I believe the calculation, IT WAS SAID IN THE MANGA. What part of "if it was stated in the manga and it's off, then it's a plothole" don't you understand? This is what plothole usually means.

  7. #52
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    Re: whats the winter battle going to be like?

    I can't help but feel that obtaining Bankai does grant an overall power boost. After Ichigo obtained it, he was able to shatter three Vice-captain Shikai with his bare hands after all.

    And plus it's not like there isn't a precedent. When Renji got his Bankai, he could do his Shikai release without the command and it was attributed to the fact that he had obtained Bankai.

  8. #53
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member gigantor21's Avatar
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    Re: whats the winter battle going to be like?

    ^ I think the main issue is that there's no consistency as far as that boost is concerned. It's a very nebulous area of the series' mythology (and one of many in the story as a whole).

    Ichigo, for instance, showed us a dramatic all-around boost after he got Bankai. He beat down three vice-captains barehanded, and fought toe-to-toe with Byakuya, who was considered one of the best captains in Soul Society. But we've seen no trace of the poise he had in the Byakuya fight since then, and he was still scared of Zaraki in spite of that "5-10 times" boost. So it's not even clear if it just applies when you use Bankai, or on general terms--Kubo, with his "brilliance" in maintaining plot consistency, has given us evidence for both arguments.

    As Zeus and Neuroff's civilized dialouge has shown us, that ambiguity makes speculation very difficult. So I'm not even going to bother trying.

    ...WTF is Aizen smiling about? XD

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  9. #54
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Neuroff's Avatar
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    Re: whats the winter battle going to be like?

    Quote Originally Posted by MegaX View Post
    I can't help but feel that obtaining Bankai does grant an overall power boost. After Ichigo obtained it, he was able to shatter three Vice-captain Shikai with his bare hands after all.
    Who's to say that Ichigo couldn't have done that before? If Ichigo had raised his reiatsu by 5-10 times, I wouldn't be surprised if he did the same to Byakuya. Yeah, Ichigo did get some strength, but it was nothing near a 5-10 times reiatsu gain.

    Quote Originally Posted by MegaX View Post
    And plus it's not like there isn't a precedent. When Renji got his Bankai, he could do his Shikai release without the command and it was attributed to the fact that he had obtained Bankai.
    Here's an example that clearly shows that bankai doesn't raise your natural reiatsu by 5-10 times. When Ganju compares Byakuya's reiatsu to Kenpachi's, he says that Byakuya's is either the same or a bit higher. And we're talking about Kenpachi with the eyepatch on. When Ichigo was at full strength, he had more reiatsu than Kenpachi with the patch. If Ichigo suddenly had 5-10 times Byakuya's reiatsu, he would have beaten him so easily that he wouldn't even need to use bankai.
    Last edited by Neuroff; December 09, 2007 at 08:08 PM.

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    Re: whats the winter battle going to be like?

    winter battle willbegin with vasto lordes shown and probably start with orihime instead of ichigo's side right away on what she needs to do about that hougyoku and possibly gin/tousen included.
    Isshin, ryuuken, and urahara are the ones to reveal about this power this time too dont forget about them


    *The sad story behind the smile of the mask....*

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  12. #56
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Jannic's Avatar
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    Re: whats the winter battle going to be like?

    I'm sorry to repeat myself - but noone's ever given me a straight answer.

    Why do we assume the Vasto Lordes are entirely different then the current Espada? I mean
    a) Aaroniero said that all the other current Espada were 'at least' Adjuchas - thus clearly saying that some were more powerful, i.e. VASTO LORDES.
    b) Look at the Vasto Lorde outline. Look at Ulquiorra's head.
    c) Anime episodes keep cutting to Ulquiorra when they say the word "Vasto Lordes".
    d) This is a good manga but not good enough outside of the fights (and with too many loose ends) to make us try to vaguely care about another 10 or 12 whole new guys.

    Stark, Halibel, Old Dude and Ulquiorra all look entirely human, so I'd say the current adjuchas end with the weird-looking Nnoitra. Maybe, MAYBE the whole speech by Hitsugaya about the distinction (which I think fuels this whole illusion that they're some entirely other thing) is that some of the existing Espada Vasto Lordes are somehow weakened or incomplete.

    I don't think that the manga-ka literally means that there must be EXACTLY ten Vasto Lordes who all look exactly the same and have giant zanpakutos which are also Gundams until the Human Instrumentality Project turns them into Optimus Prime. Since the power accorded to a 'Vasto Lorde' means 'can fight and/or kill a Captain', then Luppi (who would have killed Hitsugaya easily, weakest of the captains or not) must by that logic have been a Vasto Lorde. I think, rather than that horrible image, they'll all come to realize that the Hogyoku makes even Adjuchas really dangerous and so, those being way more numerous, they're even more screwed. I mean, consider Grimmjow - he could probably take out any of the captains Ichigo could (at least 2 or 3 spring to mind), and he's Adjucha all the way.

    Hell, as far as we know Nel is a Vasto Lorde. I don't want to seem dense, but I really don't see why everyone keeps talking about "Man, I can't wait until we get to see the Vasto Lordes" - I believe the fact that multiple point blank Hollow-Ichigo Black Getsuga Tenshous basically scuffed Ulquiorra's shoes and that being stabbed in the chest amused him mean that they're already here and kicking people's asses ON FILM.

    Winter War is very likely going to largely feature the existing crew - the only ones actively killed thus far are 7 and 9 (don't write off Szayel, Grimmjow might not turn good (though you know he will, being a hybrid of Hiei, Vegeta and the Green Ranger) for a while, and Nnoitra is unlikely to flat-out die if he releases). Add in Wonderweiss, then the 10th - hey, why not Aizen taking over the top as a Vaizard. Or reviving Luppi. Or Hollow Chad. Lots of options either way.

    Plus, if there are a bunch of new Vasto Lordes, who somehow completely trump everything else with magical cheapness power, then the Vaizard'll have to fight them with their own magical cheapness power - and as, besides Shinji, we give dick-all about anyone involved, it'll be like that episode of South Park - where the bad-ass kid challenges Stan to a race, and the girl 'leaves him' for the bad-ass, and a huge conflict comes out of nowhere - and all he can keep saying is "Why are you here? I don't, even know, who you people ARE!"

  13. #57
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Neuroff's Avatar
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    Re: whats the winter battle going to be like?

    I've been trying to say that there are vastolordes in the espada for a long time, but nobody ever listens. It's always something about not matching the silhouette, needing horns, have to be stronger than Aizen, etc. We'll just have to wait for someone to say that they're a vastolorde before people will accept it.

  14. #58
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member decadencia's Avatar
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    Re: whats the winter battle going to be like?

    i think we will see a winter war for this rele weird but convincing, to me, reason. see, the manga has to reach a point where the anime can start doing fillers. at the rate it is going now, it will catch up to the manga in no time. what, they are covering the whole rukia vs espada novena right now right? after that its grimmjow then nnoitra etc and itll catch up. i dont see what they could possibly add as fillers in the anime now, theres no choice but to continue on through thus the manga must reach a point where the anime can do fillers. so the HM arc must come to a close and thus there will be a winter war. does that make sense?

    as far as the war goes, i hope it does go from karakura to the kings realm as someone suggested. what will happen? who knows? i hope someone dies though! im so tired of no one dying in this manga!!! kill chad or orihime or uryu... hell kill ichigo!!! someone important please die!!!! though i do wonder what the hell would happen if ichigo did die? isnt he in a way technically dead? i never rele understood that but thats off topic!

    as far as the vasto lordes go, im willing to bet my manga collection that espada quatro and up are vasto lordes. and toshiro said vasto lordes are stronger than the captain class but who defines the captain class? if its toshiro then of course! who isnt stronger than toshiro?! if its more at byakuyas lv then ok those r some pretty strong vasto lordes and i wanna how much of a boost does taking ur mask off provide! though i kno the hogyoku has some more greater purpose in this that we dont kno about... i mean, if aizen is THAT strong, why make an army and go thru so much to obtain it? the war will reveal this as well i think

  15. #59
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member AngryChubbs's Avatar
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    Re: whats the winter battle going to be like?

    i think if there is a winter war...it will be based on vastolordes vs all the strong shinigami and viazards.

  16. #60
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member gigantor21's Avatar
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    Re: whats the winter battle going to be like?

    I think the main issue people have with the Vastorode thing is how they've been rendered in story.

    I wouldn't be surprised if everyone from Ulquiorra on up was a Vastorode. Jannic makes a very good point there. But there are supposed to be MORE on the way, that we haven't seen yet, who will probably refill the quickly-thinning Espada ranks. Aizen spoke of "assembling the Vastorode" in the near future; that's what I, and several others, are waiting for.

    ...WTF is Aizen smiling about? XD

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