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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
Who has Ideas on the upcoming "winter war"? If you've got predictions of events, match-ups, locations, plot twists, or you don't think it's going to happen at all, This is the place for you. I thought this might be a fun discussion, so come one, come all, lets talk war, Bleach style!
Moderator message by: SilhMerged with similar topic
Last edited by Silhouette; December 06, 2007 at 06:14 AM.
I think there will be a Winter War. I mean I don't think any of the captains will be able to take on the top 4 Espada + Aizen, Gin and Tousen. Kenpachi may be able to take Gin and Tousen but he's gonna be tired after beating Noitora.
Anyway, we HAVE to see Kyoraku and Ukitake in action...oh and I guess Yamamoto too.
Like I posted in another topic , the winter war won't be happening , because the war is happening now! Look , the war will start about 3 months later , but Urahara could stabilish the garganta , and so the captains could fight with full power , then yamajii began the war , just now! I'm completely sure that the war will ended on Hueco Mundo , just look for the recent chapters!
This isn't really a big war. I mean he only sent 4 captains and I don't think any of those captains (not sure about Kenpachi) can take on the top 4 Espada and they definitely have no chance in fighting Aizen. The only way I'll acknowledge a war is if Kyoraku, Ukitake, Yamamoto (aka the strongest captains atm) make an appearance.
its not a war, if it was, unohana would be fighting, but she's not is she? Kyoraku, Ukitake, Yamamoto in my opinion wouldnt make much of a difference, the ss archive put plot holes in their strength, Kyoraku and Ukitake's shikai was fighting on par with yamamotos , wow big flame, so what, he didnt mange to cut them down did he?, you have to remember the arrancar-hollows are part shinigami , whereas the capts are only shinigami, a one on one against an arrancar is like two on one coz their both at the same time.
the "noble" ss capts would never try to get hollow powers (and if they did it would be a plothole)so their severely limited.IMO all the vizard maybe with the exception of hachi are stronger than any capt , maybe some by a hairs breadth, but still stronger. look what shinji did to grimm, made him look stupid, look how powerful ichigo gets with 11 seconds of hybridization and the vizards can hold that power for as long as they want, their so strong their the ones who trained his 11 second boost in the first place, if ichigo is stronger than any capt the vizards must be stronger than the captain above that one. byakyua only beat no7 espada because their abilities clashed in byakuya's favor.
zomari: ha ha you would need to attack me 50 different ways simultaneously to win against me.
byakuya:ho?......shire, senbonsakura kageyoshi
zomari : wtf?
any other shinigami would have been battered into in a soup and eaten with ramen.
Sure we still have to see Unohana chan,Ukitake kun ,Kyouraku kun and Yamamoto san fight , it'll be so lame if Bleach ends without show us the true powers from this captains , but look my point of view: when Yamamoto sent Byakuya kun and Co. , he has sent them for only 3 reasons:
1-Save Ichigo kun and co.;
2-Defeat the espadas and aizen ;
3-Save Ichigo kun and co. AND defeat the espadas and Aizen.
Well , we already know that the captains will save the people there , as stated by zaraki kun and Unohana chan , but the Zaraki's words , at least from me , means that the captains ALSO will fight with the espadas there , bacause zaraki told that the garganta was stabilished , and so the captains could fight will full power , but why the captains would fight with full power if their reason were only save the ryokas? And I really believe that Yamajii e his 2 students will play a big role after the actual battles are finished , still in Hueco Mundo...
aizen never claimed that he wanted to make a key...thats what yamamoto said. aizen never talked about a war or anything, yamamoto just thinks that he wants everyone in the town in order to make the key. what if aizen actually has his own plan. maybe he just wants the vastolordes so he has more power in order to create the key...if thats what he is gonna do in the first place.
but i dont think there will be a winter war...this is the war right now
To have the winter war in hueco mundo would actually suck big time
since its basically the same old captains that we expected to show up and we've seen before. Instead of revealing new techniques from other captains (i.e kyouraku, ukitake, soi-fon, unohana) and dont forget about isshin, ryuuken, urahara, and yoruichi too. They all will have to come into play when they needed to and at this point they arent needed yet along with the appearance of vasto lordes that havent been made yet, which tells us that the real winter war hasnt even started yet.
Im positive that the real winter arc is still after the whole rescue mission that the captains are doing now. Itll all start and come into play in karakura town
A) The War doesn't start until there's an actual army. This is more of an elite commando raid, and the gigantic hordes of Hollow expected have yet to show themselves, as with the 1000s of trash Shinigami in Seireitei. I actually always wondered - roughly how many troops do the Gotei 13 muster? I mean at least 100 must have bought it in the various catastrophes of the Rescue Rukia arc...there're 13 squads with 10 captains and 13 vice-captains...at least 15 seats so at least 195 seated officers plus ranking leaders...then the 'kidou brigade' (whatever that is)...it'd be interesting how outnumbered they are.
B) The War will be much messier - humans getting eaten by the truckload, etc., and Aizen likely succeeding in wiping out Karakura. (Cue Orihime Rejecting EVERYTHING. And possibly dying?)
C) I'm assuming by 'Vastolorde Release' the post above means Ulquiorra and above? Those guys, at LEAST are already Vastolorde. So is Wonderwice (I imagine from his ability to freak the hell out of Urahara). Thus the whole ironic contrast of: "Tousen: 10 Vastolordes and We're Screwed." vs. "Aizen: Come Ulquiorra, and tell your 25 brothers and sisters, etc." I really can never understand why people think the Vastolorde are some whole other thing we haven't seen yet. Non-filler episodes of the anime even cut straight to Ulquiorra when introducing the definition of a Vastolorde, which I feel is pretty canon.
D) The main problem remaining is how to justify the Vaizard's role - I mean, they can't just come in and rape everyone (are they all as strong as Shinji? I seriously doubt it.) or else it'll be stupidly deus ex machina...but they can't suck or disappoint since they've been built up so far. Also a theory I've seen and liked is that Urahara will turn out to be some sort of Vaizard (he's smart enough) or at least their creator/mentor. That'd let them and Isshin (due to kill someone cool) form a unified party and keep the number of sides down to three. I also can very easily see them actively turning against SS and arguably turning out mostly to all the way evil...remember how Hiyori was going to kill Orihime and Chad just for bothering her - that goes beyond 'bad-ass' into 'psycho murderer' territory.
E) So, in 'short', the War would optimally be a massive garganta over Karakura (which everyone can finally see) spewing forth an awesome double-spread of teeming adjuchas leading endless squads of gillian, with a command group leading the whole thing. Similarly, a giant Black Gate opens up for the entire Gotei 13 (no point protecting SS if they fail here, I imagine) fronted by released Captains. Vaizard wait equidistant to both of them (for a triangle motif) with Ichigo and his remaining sidekicks stationed next to them for protection/observation. All hell then breaks loose in typical genius Kubo fashion.
F) On a further note: Yo - what's with all the Yama-Jii "plot has weakened him" "oooh fire big deal" nonsense? He can literally set the AIR on fire for miles around him with just releasing his Shikai...which is unambiguously stated to be the most destructive Zanpakuto in SS by the two Captains who first graduated from the Gotei 13 Academy. (Except maybe Aizen's...his bankai being poised to be ridiculously cheap. Still, probably it doesn't compare in brute force in the slightest.)
I mean, fire isn't weak just because it's not "magical monotone energy beams" like most other attacks in the series - I think we're talking more about the fire of the Sun, or of the Gods here. Recall how when Ukitake and Kyoraku flee the Execution Grounds, it's because they're quite aware that if they fight there, everyone else (and I really think they include the other Captains) will get killed without a thought in the crossfire from Ryuujin Jakka.
Yamamoto is easily stronger than any other Soul Society affiliate with the eventual exception of Ichigo later on in the series (due to the mysterious Plot Force he wields.) Saying Kenpachi could take him (some posts even argue is the strongest) is just ridiculous. He keeps getting stuck against morons like Ichigo or Tesla or even Tousen who try to engage him in close combat (dumbdumbdumb)...even a mid-range Captain like Byakuya would likely just go "Hmmph. Flash Step out of Range. Kidou. (Rinse. Repeat.) When Kenpachi senses Yamamoto's release in Soul Society it's the only time in the series he says he's impressed without adding "I want to fight him...!" - which I assume means mostly that he's not totally suicidal when it comes to those out of his league.
Bleach is awesome but predictable, so think of any other old wrinkly buff dude in another hugely popular but very predictable manga...Sandaime Hokage, for example. Yamamoto is the leader of the Good(-ish) Guys and that means he's a beast when he gets serious. At the very least, when he goes down, he's taking somebody big with him (or at least forcing them to get 100% serious and show off their trump card (which in this series generally screws you over since surprise attacks trump any sort of strategy.) He will hands down kill anyone except Aizen in the entire series, and I'll bet my life on it. Primaron Espada nothing, Yama-Jii is a complicated man, and no-one understands him but his victims.
That or he dies of old age fighting Yammy in issue 356.
On the Kenpachi note, I think people argue that he has the potential to be the strongest. I mean, you're comparing a person who is fighting a pure natural reiatsu to people with bankai. Kenpachi has never trained with anyone. He has only trained from street fights. I don't think any captains had natural reiatsu like Kenpachi (meaning their reiatsu before knowing their sword's name and getting bankai), especially since he's on par with most of them now.
Yoruichi already said that achieving bankai increases your reiatsu 5-10 times (overall, not only in bankai stage) so to accurately compare Kenpachi, you'd have to assign power levels in numbers to the other captains and divide it by at least 5. I'm guessing Kenpachi would be stronger.
Let's say Kenpachi is at 100 power level. Most other captains are at 100. Komamura and Hitsugaya who seem to be weaker than him (Kenpachi disposed of Tesla in one slash while Hitsugaya needed bankai to beat Shawlong) are around 80-90 maybe. Byakuya is around 100. Kyoraku, Ukitake and Yamamoto are probably around 150-200. Aizen is definitely 200 because he says he has double reiatsu then average captain. Now divide those captains numbers by 5 to exclude bankai. Byakuya would be at 20. Kyoraku, Ukitake and Yamamoto would be around 30-40 and Aizen would be at 40+.
I'm not making up anything, these are just basic mathematics coming from the manga. Also, those 20s, 30s and 40s are without bankai but probably with shikai. But if you leave the captains at the current bankai level and instead multiple Kenpachi's current level by 5, then you get 500, which has a huge gap between everyone else.
Btw, these numbers are just used to compare the captains. I have no way of knowing if their power-level is actually 100 or 200. I'm just saying though that Kenpachi is on par with the average captain (maybe more since he's facing the 5th Espada who is a level above the Espada that Ichigo only edged out) and it's been stated in the manga that his power will increase 5-10 fold (let's say it will increase by the minimum), meaning he will be 5x as strong as the average captain (Sorry, Aizen, you're old news by then :P).
Another note. I know bankai powers differ between person to person, but Yoruichi stated achieving bankai gives you the boost. THEN the bankai's unique effect is added, but everyone always gets that range of power boost just by getting bankai. So when Ichigo, for example, got his bankai, he got a strength AND speed boost.
Kenpachi's a complicated man...and no one understand him but his little woman, Yachiru.
Bankai doesn't give a straight reiatsu boost, it increases your fighting ability 5-10 times. Fighting ability isn't necessarily reiatsu. Just look at Tousen, saying that his bankai increases his reiatsu is ridiculous.
Also - it takes you forever to learn how to use Bankai properly. If Shirosaki hadn't given Ichigo a crash course the hard way, followed by the Vaizards giving him more reiatsu than he could ever use up as Hollow Ichigo, he'd likely still be breaking his own body down under the high-speed condition of his Bankai. As it is he still only knows how to run around in circles firing Getsuga Tenshous, and as we've seen that strategy is getting increasingly less effective.
Except on Yammy. God, Kubo seems to hate that guy but not want to kill him before he can be humiliated even farther.
It would be very much in Kenpachi's character for his Bankai (IF he gets it soon, it's still a colossal leap of faith to assume he has already or will for a while - Shikai, maybe) to similarly stress his body - and if anything he's even dumber than Ichigo. All the potential fighting power in the world won't do you a bit of good if you're fighting someone like the SS Big 3 or Aizen who's totally expert in every aspect of their Bankai abilities.
(P.S. I know it won't happen but I'd love for Kenpachi to be fighting Nnoitra - to call out: "Well, I haven't tried this out on a real enemy yet...but here goes: Ban Kai!"...and to suddenly be holding a healing-type katana like Hanataro's...)
The Tousen comment you made doesn't make sense. His power was already 5-10 times it was before he had bankai. I'm not talking about your reiatsu going up when releasing bankai. I mean the GENERAL power you had before achieving bankai is weaker than when you've actually achieved it. I can't make it more clearer than that and thus my above statement of Kenpachi is correct.
Also a side note: When Ichigo went to that bridged where Byakuya, Ukitake, Ganju, RUkia and Hanatarou were, Ukitake commented that the reiatsu he felt (Ichigo's reiatsu) was clearly the level of a captain. This is PRE-bankai so that explains how he drew with Kenpachi. Ichigo in shikai (knowing Zangetsu's name) was at captain level and this was STATED by Ukitake. However, it still doesn't trump Kenpachi who is at captain level without knowing the name.