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Thread: Redrawing for HQ Scans (Part 1)

  1. #1
    Translator 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Silver_Sea's Avatar
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    Redrawing for HQ Scans (Part 1)

    This is a basic tutorial showing beginners where to look for good places to clone.

    "… eating an elephant bit by bit.”
    A page full of text overlays looks daunting at first, but once you understand the art
    in terms of simple forms and symmetry, you’re on the fast track to cloning the page back to its original form.

    Software: photoshop. Tools: brush, eraser, pen, lasso, move
    Basic Tips:
    Spoiler show


    Contents: Clone Patterns/Clone straight lines/Redraw curved lines

    CLONE PATTERNS
    Screentones
    (clone from same gradient)

    Spoiler show


    Wood grain
    ( clone from a variety of areas, use transform/ctrl T creatively )

    Spoiler show


    Wall pattern
    ( the power of symmetry: mirror using ctrl T)

    Spoiler show


    Tatami (and one human)
    (cut and paste, mirror and move)

    Spoiler show


    CLONE STRAIGHT LINES
    •Architecture is easy, just keep extruding straight lines (layer via copy) until they intersect,
    then draw the joint (column meets ceiling) using the brush tool (holding down shift)
    •Now you can clone beams, doors, walls and shoji screens~!


    Spoiler show


    REDRAW CURVED LINES
    Clothes: redrawing using the pen tool.
    When erasing the Japanese text, try to be as accurate as possible: every bit of the original helps.

    Spoiler show


    Humans:
    When the text has virtually obliterated the line art, and all you can see are bits and pieces, don’t panic…:
    Regain control of the page by blocking in simple shapes and thinking in terms of symmetry.

    Spoiler show


    "Once you can understand the picture, adding in the detail is straightforward... ..."Congrats at reaching the end of the tutorial, have fun cloning~!
    Spoiler show


    Test yourself: Clone Kagura

    Original: Result:

    Part 2: Advanced Redrawing for HQ Scans http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21037
    Last edited by Silver_Sea; November 06, 2007 at 06:52 AM.

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  3. #2
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Vato Loco!'s Avatar
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    Re: Redrawing for HQ Scans (Part 1)

    Lol. I hadn't noticed this thread until now. This really is a good thread to teach new cleaners a decent way to start re-drawing and turn out decent results, and it incorporates some of the methods that I used to use before I got my tablet. That being said, I still have some qualms about some parts of it.

    The first thing I want to comment on is your use of cloning in the first part. Here you have made one of the biggest mistakes that I see new people make when they're using the clone stamp tool and the layer copy method. That mistake being that, while you may have payed attention to correct gradients and such, you have completely neglected the actual pattern.

    like I've pointed out here:

    Spoiler show


    As you can see here it is painstakingly obvious where your cloning is as opposed to the actual pattern because of the constant repetition. One of the tell tale signs that you've made this mistake is because of the constant appearance of the same row of pixels, or the pattern moved via the layer copy method does not mesh with the original pattern.

    As I'm pointing out here:

    Spoiler show


    Unfortunately, this is a problem that's all too common with new people not familiar with the tools and methods being used, such as the cloning method you describe. One of the easiest solutions to this problem for the cloning method you describe is just to watch where you're making your selection with the pen tool. Try to make it so what your selection is always over the columns of the pattern and not the pattern itself.

    What i mean by this is, that if you zoom into any grid type of pattern you will start to see rows and columns of two side by side pixels. These rows and columns create boxes that will have alternating pixels inside them. This is how most grid type patterns are created. If you make your selection from the middle of one of the columns where the two pixels meet then you should, in turn, be able to take your clone layer and move it over any pattern and be able to match it up perfectly with the pattern (of course this is provided that the hue of the pixels stays the same and there's no pattern change.)

    Now of course this isn't perfect either. Since you have various little blemishes in every pattern (especially mag raws), if you clone from the same place you will still have some hint of repetition. This is the reason why you should change clone source from time to time.

    Now if your clones start to overlap each other and it's difficult to match pixels then this is when the eraser tool comes in. If your problem is that you can't match pixels, then before you start erasing, zoom in close to where you're gonna be erasing (around 500-800 pixels depending on the image, though you could to more if you wanted) and instead of using the eraser tool in the brush setting change it to the pencil setting. This way you can change the size to 1px and erase individual pixels, unlike the brush tool, which will also start erasing the pixels surrounding its focus point.

    I myself have stopped using this method and use the clone stamp tool for every pattern clone I do now (since I have a tablet and it makes everything go much faster. ) Though I still keep the pattern in mind, and will start cloning from the corresponding pixel to the exact place where I will be cloning to. (I.E. I'll clone from a pixel a few columns away, and make sure it's in the same place as my new starting point for the clone)

    It's also generally a good Idea to make your starting point (where you're going to start cloning, not where you're cloning from) for your new clone a pixel or two outside of the text you'll be cloning over. This way you can make sure your pattern will align and match the rest of the image, and you can make sure you're cloning from a place with a similar hue.

    I have another thing to comment on but I gotta head to class right now so I'll edit that in later.

  4. #3
    Translator 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Silver_Sea's Avatar
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    Re: Redrawing for HQ Scans (Part 1)

    Cool! Thanks for the super tips on making a repeating texture. I'm sorry for the mistake in that image...( lame excuse coming :P) Anyway, I'm really glad you took the time point that out!

    I'm intrigued by your use of the tablet in cleaning. and also you mentioned you cloned a small column at a time....I always just grab a huge swathe of...anything, the bigger the better. :X

    Actually I always had a problem drawing with the pen tool, it seems so unatural ( and slow) to tweak each bezier handle so I always end up drawing free-hand. Do you have any ideas how to use it so its fast and natural?

  5. #4
    Scanlator 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member fxu's Avatar
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    Re: Redrawing for HQ Scans (Part 1)

    Or you can do it easier .. grab like 4 to 6 rows of dots, and make it it into a pattern. [Edit > Define Pattern]

    Do a pattern overlay over that area only, then use a gradient and play with the Blending Change.

    Here's an example.

    Spoiler show


    [This is my way of doing it. To each their own]

    edit: You caught me in a good time. I was doing the HQ of Dragonaut 1 .. and there a lot of patterns in there.

    Here's one.

    Spoiler show
    Last edited by fxu; November 18, 2007 at 01:25 AM.

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    Translator 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Silver_Sea's Avatar
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    Re: Redrawing for HQ Scans (Part 1)

    Wow!!! Thumbs up!! HQ redrawing in action!

    Yeah, I have heard of this way of overlaying the greytones on another layer, for scanlating, or for home-made manga... But seriously, did you redraw Everything in Dragonaut manually? How do you make that sustainable? I remember I tried to outline some Bleach stuff with the pen tool before and it took me one hour to draw Ishida's face...I mean that was just impossible. And I did it 3 times again and it was just as slow. So I dunno, any suggestions to keep the lineart layer intact while you substitute the background?!
    Last edited by Silver_Sea; November 18, 2007 at 10:59 AM.

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    Scanlator 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member spades's Avatar
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    Re: Redrawing for HQ Scans (Part 1)

    ...thats aaalllooottt of work..redrawing everything.. wow..

  8. #7
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Vato Loco!'s Avatar
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    Re: Redrawing for HQ Scans (Part 1)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver_Sea View Post
    Cool! Thanks for the super tips on making a repeating texture. I'm sorry for the mistake in that image...( lame excuse coming :P) Anyway, I'm really glad you took the time point that out!

    I'm intrigued by your use of the tablet in cleaning. and also you mentioned you cloned a small column at a time....I always just grab a huge swathe of...anything, the bigger the better. :X

    Actually I always had a problem drawing with the pen tool, it seems so unatural ( and slow) to tweak each bezier handle so I always end up drawing free-hand. Do you have any ideas how to use it so its fast and natural?
    Nah, I talked about the columns and rows to break down a pattern. I'll start at one place but just do a continuous stroke of it through out the clone.

    As for the use of the pen tool. Well, I've never had to tweak each individual one. In fact, I can't recall ever tweaking one at all. I've always used the click, hold and move method. That being, you make your anchor, then the second point in the path that you make you hold the left click, and move your mouse, this'll make the curves you need depending on where and how you move your mouse. Then once you have your wanted curve release the click. Though this usually means you'll have more anchor points till you get good at guessing where your anchors should go, and how much to move your mouse accordingly.

  9. #8
    Scanlator 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member fxu's Avatar
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    Re: Redrawing for HQ Scans (Part 1)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver_Sea View Post
    Wow!!! Thumbs up!! HQ redrawing in action!

    Yeah, I have heard of this way of overlaying the greytones on another layer, for scanlating, or for home-made manga... But seriously, did you redraw Everything in Dragonaut manually? How do you make that sustainable? I remember I tried to outline some Bleach stuff with the pen tool before and it took me one hour to draw Ishida's face...I mean that was just impossible. And I did it 3 times again and it was just as slow. So I dunno, any suggestions to keep the lineart layer intact while you substitute the background?!
    Hehe .. thanks.


    Everything ? I would have to say more than 90% of each page is re-drawn.

    Spoiler show


    I recommend doing the black part first [usually is smaller, overall], then make a new layer and place it below the black layer and fill it with white. Then re-draw whatever else you forgot to go over.

    Or if you wanna go lazy on me .. do it piece by piece, using pen tool, line tool, and brush; doing it in different layers, then just merge all of them.

    P.S: I'm looking for a translator .. if you wanna help <33333


    EDIT:

    Spoiler show



    EDIT: I decided to drop the Dragonaut HQ cus I decided to join a group. I'll propose it to them and see.
    Last edited by fxu; November 19, 2007 at 05:04 AM.

  10. #9
    Translator 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Silver_Sea's Avatar
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    Re: Redrawing for HQ Scans (Part 1)

    Well...good luck! We might end up in the same group some other time, who knows. :P But for the record I am a chin-> eng translator. As for J-> eng, you might even have better luck asking the Vato, >.> [ BTW, did you know about this? ]

    And you know what, you should get into original illustration considering how much redrawing you do... And coloring :P Thanks for showing the technique. =D

    Quote Quote:
    Nah, I talked about the columns and rows to break down a pattern. I'll start at one place but just do a continuous stroke of it through out the clone.
    Ah, I did get that, its just that I started seeing repeating patterns in my mind so that's...well I'm most definitely going to try out this method and update this tutorial. And also regarding the use of the pen tool as well. I have to scrap that technique I introduced about using the pen ASAP...

    Thank you and please continue to point out any mistakes you spot. ^^""
    Last edited by Silver_Sea; November 19, 2007 at 05:26 AM.

  11. #10
    Scanlator 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member fxu's Avatar
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    Re: Redrawing for HQ Scans (Part 1)

    Thanks, maybe we will ^_^


    I'm really really bad at drawing [my own stuff].

    I can only re-draw and trace what other people has done.


  12. #11
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Vato Loco!'s Avatar
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    Re: Redrawing for HQ Scans (Part 1)

    I should probably take care of this before everyone goes off on their merry way, though I should be working on my psych paper. |{

    Quote Originally Posted by fxu View Post
    Or you can do it easier .. grab like 4 to 6 rows of dots, and make it it into a pattern. [Edit > Define Pattern]

    Do a pattern overlay over that area only, then use a gradient and play with the Blending Change.

    Here's an example.

    Spoiler show


    [This is my way of doing it. To each their own]

    edit: You caught me in a good time. I was doing the HQ of Dragonaut 1 .. and there a lot of patterns in there.

    Here's one.

    Spoiler show
    Actually, technically it's impossible to get the same result as the original pattern through overlay. This is because of the nature of the overlay effect. That nature being that, even though it might be at 100 % optacity, there will always, ALWAYS, be bleed through from the original image. And since it's basically impossible to get the pattern to overlay exactly the way it was before since all patterns are unique, and grabbing a part of it will not perfectly reproduce the original pattern, it's not as good as stamping the original pattern when working on tank scans.

    Also, a gradient from PS never looks as natural as the original gradient on the pattern, and usually always looks like an overlay, even with multiply applied.

    Also, as it is plainly visible in your Dragonaut page, your grays look extremely artificial. This artificialness is accented even more by the fact that your newly drawn lines stand out. Just that alone makes it a bad re-draw. The thing with re-drawing is you're supposed to re-draw line art and patterns to make the image look better, in correlation with the original art. So, yeah the grays look better, but if the overall image looks way different then the re-draw is not necessarily better. Also, it seems from the raw that the bracelet on the hand is an entirely different hue than the rest of the hand.

    This is why it's generally advised against completely re-drawing pages. The only time I've seen a scanlation turn out great with completely re-drawn pages was by shannaro (at least I've heard they completely re-drew their pages).

    Generally, a much better idea than completely re-drawing lines is to use the erase tool. That is, after you do an overlay, reduce the optacity of that overlay and erase over the lines with a 3px brush, then return the overlays optacity back to 100%. Then I suggest taking the pen tool and doing 1px strokes over each line in order to highlight it and make sure they look good and appropriately dark inside of the overlay.

    Edit: I have another thing to address in this thread but that'll have to wait till later tonight.

  13. #12
    Scanlator 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member fxu's Avatar
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    Re: Redrawing for HQ Scans (Part 1)

    RAWs are usually LQ/MQ. Doing an HQ usually means re-drawn and make it look as if it was drawn directly on that canvas in the first place and not in manga page. [That's what I've learned from different groups]

    And that gradient/pattern wouldn't be out of place if you re-do the rest of the page. After everything is neat and tidy, it'll look good.

    Patterns are difficult to copy; there's no such thing as perfection [not that you mentioned it], so sometimes it'll be a little bit off than the original.



    I didn't notice the different grays between the bracelet and the hand/shirt; thanks. I'll have to look out for that in future cleanings.
    Last edited by fxu; November 19, 2007 at 06:21 PM.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Vato Loco!'s Avatar
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    Re: Redrawing for HQ Scans (Part 1)

    Quote Originally Posted by fxu View Post
    RAWs are usually LQ/MQ. Doing an HQ usually means re-drawn and make it look as if it was drawn directly on that canvas in the first place and not in manga page. [That's what I've learned from different groups]

    And that gradient/pattern wouldn't be out of place if you re-do the rest of the page. After everything is neat and tidy, it'll look good.

    Patterns are difficult to copy; there's no such thing as perfection [not that you mentioned it], so sometimes it'll be a little bit off than the original.



    I didn't notice the different grays between the bracelet and the hand/shirt; thanks. I'll have to look out for that in future cleanings.
    Wow, I have no idea who taught you but they were severely misinformed. I can take that raw and in about an hour and a half get it up to HQ status, without having to re-draw a thing. This just lets me know that you've never had any training actually cleaning manga. What you're doing now is kind of a poorer version of what Colour groups like Isane do to clean their pages before they start to colour. Though I'm not trying to get down on you or anything, just that you should go and learn to properly clean manga. That'll take your scanlation time and re-drawing time and lessen it by great lengths.

    Unfortunately, you're missing the point of re-drawing. Any re-draw should always mimic the original art. But with your re-draws it is obvious what you do and it looks blocky and nothing like the original art. Not to mention that your re-draws are all for naught, because that raw is really nice, and can easily be cleaned up to HQ status.

  15. #14
    Scanlator 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member spades's Avatar
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    Re: Redrawing for HQ Scans (Part 1)

    everyone has there own way of redrawing :0
    i thot u only redraw when u hv overlaying words, but i guess i was wrong
    well, ur raws ware actually MQ/HQ, so u didn't really hv to re-draw the whole thing
    raws that are LQ/MQ are usually only from magazines.

  16. #15
    Translator 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Silver_Sea's Avatar
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    Re: Redrawing for HQ Scans (Part 1)

    Well okay, I guess we're starting to see two different ways of redrawing/drawing. Fxu's way is more suited to original art/ amateur manga creation rather than to preserve the mangaka's art.
    Quote Quote:
    well, ur raws ware actually MQ/HQ, so u didn't really hv to re-draw the whole thing raws that are LQ/MQ are usually only from magazines.
    I agree with spades and Vato about that, but OTOH, I was really excited to see you redraw the whole thing! I mean, I love drawing. Even if you will want to change your cleaning style now that its problems are pointed out, I don't think you've wasted your time learning the pen tool. It will come in handy when you create original art for yourself.

    Anyway, I learnt a lot of good techniques for redrawing mag scans from your discussion, thanks! =D

    Quote Quote:
    I should probably take care of this before everyone goes off on their merry way, though I should be working on my psych paper. |{
    How about a paper on group think ? >_< Both the good and bad points. :P
    Last edited by Silver_Sea; November 20, 2007 at 06:10 AM.

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