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Thread: Jiraiya Mega Convo

  1. #316
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    Re: Jiraiya Mega Convo

    Quote Originally Posted by segua View Post
    .
    But one thing that bothers me is this scene from Naruto Chapter 382 page 8 to page 11.
    This is the first thing that came to mind after reading the latest chapter.. no matter how the timeline played out, to think that Jiraiya would never share his first novel TGN with Minato untill YEARS after he'd written it and just before Naruto was born, is hard to imagine...

    As far as the lines on his face go, Minato was not a teenager when he became Hokage, which means at least 2 decades of his life had gone by.... If the kids from Amegakure aged to about 13 years of age by the time Jiraiya left, and Minato was only 9-11 when he first started training with Jiraiya, why then is there a huge gap of time between when the book was written and when Jiraiya shared it with Minato?

    The way Jiraiya's flashback is presented, leaves the possibility of Minato having purchased the book in a bookstore, however unlikely. In the same way, where exactly did Fukasaku get a copy of Jiraiya's first book? the same bookstore?

    Jiraiya mentions that it did not sell well in the store, so maybe it had been released for that long, and it was just never picked up. Either way, maybe it does or doesn't make sense, but the fact remains that many things have been going on lately which move the story away from what was once exciting about it, how everything tied together nicely at the end...

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    Re: Jiraiya Mega Convo

    Okay, hopefully that won't be too long for a post.
    I had spare time today, so I looked over the manga and Databook and tried to get the most hint to recreate a Sannin Timeline.

    I used that year that the Sannin were born as the Start, so every number above the text is actually the age of the Sannin at that time.

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    0 -
    Jiraiya, Orochimaru and Tsunade are born

    6 –
    Jiraiya graduate from the academy.
    He will train under Sandaime along with Orochimaru and Tsunade.

    Spoiler show


    -------------------------------------------------

    HOLE IN THE TIMELINE

    Given that we were never told the age of Minato or Nagato, and that we were never told the years (or that age of the Sannin) during the battle against Hanzou, we are currently unable to depict the Timeline during that period.

    Still, I’ll try to make something up, that might make sense.

    Around 15 -
    Jiraiya leave Konoha to travel and stumble on the Frog’s land.
    He will stay there for a long time, learning their jutsu and eventually would be told of the prophecy.

    Spoiler show


    Somewhere between 15 and 23-
    After having been told the prophecy, Jiraiya leave the Moutain and begin travelling.

    Spoiler show


    Before 23 -
    With the war almost starting, Jiraiya must come back to Konoha.
    During skirmishes before the war, Owari and Dan are killed.

    Spoiler show


    23-
    During the war, the three ninja fight Hanzou and are given their Sannin title.

    Spoiler show


    23-26
    Jiraiya settle to train Nagato and use his free-time to write the book from the prophecy.

    Spoiler show


    26-
    After three years, Jiraiya leave and returns to Konoha.
    Spoiler show


    26-
    Jiraiya takes the new Genin, Minato, as his pupil.

    Spoiler show


    END OF : HOLE IN THE TIMELINE

    -----------------------------------------------------

    32-
    Orochimaru experiment on children (including Yamato) trying to give them the power of Mokuton.

    Spoiler show


    35-
    Juugo is born

    Spoiler show


    37 –
    Minato, a Jonin, (not the 4th yet) goes in mission on the Rock Country with Kakashi, Obito and Rin.

    Spoiler show


    37-38 –
    During that year, Sandaime retires and Minato became the Yondaime Hokage.

    Spoiler show


    38 –
    Minato read the Gutsy Ninja book (written 12 years ago?!) and decide to name his child as the Main character, Naruto.

    38-
    The Kyubbi attack.
    Yondaime dies and Sandaime resumes his function as the Hokage.

    39-40 –
    Juugo comes to Orochimaru

    Spoiler show


    39-40-
    Orochimaru used the Cursed seal on 10 students, only Anko survive.

    Spoiler show


    39-40-
    Orochimaru is caught by Sandaime (who came back from retirement) and leave Konoha.

    Spoiler show


    40-50
    Jiraiya tries to get Oro to come back, but fails.

    Spoiler show


    Orochimaru plots on his side and Jiraiya leave Konoha.

    Spoiler show


    Jiraiya will also write his Icha-Icha books during those years.

    Spoiler show


    50 –
    Jiraiya comes back to Konoha and trains Naruto.

    … We know the rest.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    So, here it is.
    I think it works, but it isn't perfect.
    There are still stuff that doesn't seem right.

    1.
    Juugo and Anko's timeline doesn't seem to work fine together.
    It only works if Juugo joined Orochimaru at 4-5 years old maximum, but it seems pretty far-fetch to me.

    2.
    Another thing that I find odd is the fact that Minato read the book 12 years after it was written...
    It would make more sense to me if Jiraiya had trained Minato when he was young, then went to that war, trained Nagato, wrote the book and came back to Konoha (with the the new book that he published) and gave a copy to the Minato, now older, that we saw in the flashback.


    But, anyway, I don't know...
    That's the conclusion I got while reading the manga and looking at the Databook.

    For the part that are not clear yet (Nagato or Minato first), I simply looked at the character to see if they seemed old or not, and at the red marks on Jiraiya's face that seem to grow as he age.

    Hopefully, we'll get even more evidence soon and can clarify the parts that are still unclear.

    EDIT :
    Added the travel after the prophecy. Thanks, Forever_Melody
    Last edited by THM Nindo; July 31, 2012 at 11:08 AM.


    True love will conquer everything
    The question now is : which of those two loves, is the true one?!
    ___________________

    Jiraiya's timeline : here
    Zetsu, the strongest villain of Akatsuki : here

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  4. #318
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    Re: Jiraiya Mega Convo

    Nice timeline Nindo ^_^

    However, I did not see the "traveling around the world" that the Elder Toad Sage spoke of in the prophecy in your timeline. Where would you fit that? I suppose after Nagato's training as the book he wrote(Icha Icha) from his travels was written after TGN. Then again, maybe he travelled before and wrote the book afterwards.

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    Re: Jiraiya Mega Convo

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Melody View Post
    Nice timeline Nindo ^_^

    However, I did not see the "traveling around the world" that the Elder Toad Sage spoke of in the prophecy in your timeline. Where would you fit that? I suppose after Nagato's training as the book he wrote(Icha Icha) from his travels was written after TGN. Then again, maybe he travelled before and wrote the book afterwards.
    Yeah, you're right
    I can only see two options for this :

    1. He travelled with Nagato and co. during their training.

    Possible. It was never said that they stayed in Amegakure, but when he leave them behind, he's most probably still in the Rain Country, since it's raining

    Though, that would work best with the fact that Nagato took people that Jiraiya fought during his travel, to use as his Six Path (except Yahiko, of course).

    If he would have travel with Jiraiya, he would have know them too.

    2. He travelled after the prophecy and before the war

    He was told the prophecy around 15 (Note : I'm just throwing number without any proof here), and he went to fight Hanzou around 23 years old.

    Between the two, a lot of thing could have happen. My guess is that, once his training was finished with the Toads, he left to travel.

    Then, he came back because of the war, fought Hanzou and stayed with the three young orphans.
    Finally settling down after all those years, he tried to write the book.

    That could make sense. If the book was almost autobiographic and that he described the people he met really well, I guess that, maybe, Nagato could have found them back and took them as his Six Paths.

    ----

    My opinion, it's Option #2.

    There such a big gap between the prophecy and the war...
    He couldn't just have stayed in the Moutain for 8 years.
    So, sharing those 8 years between the time at the Mountain and his travel make perfect sense to me.
    Last edited by THM Nindo; May 24, 2009 at 07:02 PM.


    True love will conquer everything
    The question now is : which of those two loves, is the true one?!
    ___________________

    Jiraiya's timeline : here
    Zetsu, the strongest villain of Akatsuki : here

  6. #320
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    Re: Jiraiya Mega Convo

    Well the way I see the prophecy, there was nothing but a pure element of luck/fate.

    I don't think there was any inner meaning to the bodies Nagato chose in relation to Jiraiya. I think that Jiraiya was just "destined" to meet those guys during his travels so that later on in his life he'd figure out the secret behind Pain. That was the purpose of the prophecy IMO. Nagato himself probably chose them on a practical basis(since he basically chooses dead people) more than anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHomeMade Nindo View Post
    Yeah, you're right
    I can only see two options for this :

    1. He travelled with Nagato and co. during their training.

    Possible. It was never said that they stayed in Amegakure, but when he leave them behind, he's most probably still in the Rain Country, since it's raining

    Though, that would work best with the fact that Nagato took people that Jiraiya fought during his travel, to use as his Six Path (except Yahiko, of course).

    If he would have travel with Jiraiya, he would have know them too.
    I don't think Jiraiya & Nagato traveled during their training as it's always the same house featured and the rain is a prominent background element. Note that Jiraiya does say "I'll stay with these kids".

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHomeMade Nindo View Post
    2. He travelled after the prophecy and before the war

    He was told the prophecy around 15 (Note : I'm just throwing number without any proof here), and he went to fight Hanzou around 23 years old.

    Between the two, a lot of thing could have happen. My guess is that, once his training was finished with the Toads, he left to travel.

    Then, he came back because of the war, fought Hanzou and stayed with the three young orphans.
    Finally settling down after all those years, he tried to write the book.

    That could make sense. If the book was almost autobiographic and that he described the people he met really well, I guess that, maybe, Nagato could have found them back and took them as his Six Paths.

    ----

    My opinion, it's Option #2.
    There such a big gap between the prophecy and the war...
    He couldn't just have stayed in the Moutain for 8 years. So, sharing those 8 years between the time at the Moutain and the travelling make perfect sense to me.
    The question is, if he traveled BEFORE the war, he didn't write Icha Icha(the prophecy books) until LATER then for it to make sense(therefore he didn't write it during his travels).

    TGN is stated to be the first book he wrote, so he obviously wrote Icha Icha after that(I'm talking about writing, not publishing). So for the timeline to make sense, he must have written Icha Icha later, after his travels and after training Nagato & co if we are to believe Fukasaku and Naruto.

    It does however make sense if we incorporate that one small detail ^_^

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    Re: Jiraiya Mega Convo

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Melody View Post
    Well the way I see the prophecy, there was nothing but a pure element of luck/fate.

    I don't think there was any inner meaning to the bodies Nagato chose in relation to Jiraiya. I think that Jiraiya was just "destined" to meet those guys during his travels so that later on in his life he'd figure out the secret behind Pain. That was the purpose of the prophecy IMO. Nagato himself probably chose them on a practical basis(since he basically chooses dead people) more than anything.
    I never though of it this way, but that makes perfect sense.

    I was always wondering why Jiraiya had such a big reaction when he realized that it was people that he fought.
    I though that it helped him realized that it was Nagato because those people had a link to Nagato.

    But, in fact, his big reaction was because he realized that they were dead people, and that Nagato was the real Pain, but was hiding somewhere controlling the dead bodies.

    That's so obvious now
    And that makes perfect sense!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Melody View Post
    The question is, if he traveled BEFORE the war, he didn't write Icha Icha(the prophecy books) until LATER then for it to make sense(therefore he didn't write it during his travels).

    TGN is stated to be the first book he wrote, so he obviously wrote Icha Icha after that(I'm talking about writing, not publishing). So for the timeline to make sense, he must have written Icha Icha later, after his travels and after training Nagato & co if we are to believe Fukasaku and Naruto.

    It does however make sense if we incorporate that one small detail ^_^
    TGN is the first book he wrote, that we all agree on.
    And he wrote it all while training Nagato.

    As for the Icha Icha series (the adult books), he wrote them all after the Kyubbi attack.

    We all know that he was still travelling around. I suspect that he was still looking for info on Orochimaru and Akatsuki (even if he told Ebisu that he was just looking for inspiration for his books).

    About TGN, he told Minato that he would sex up the sequel (the current Icha Icha serie). At that time, Kushina was in a advance pregnancy (probably 7 months), so the Kyubbi attack was about to happen.

    Note : I'll edit my big post with the new info (Travel after prophecy and before Hanzou war).
    Last edited by THM Nindo; May 24, 2009 at 09:03 PM.


    True love will conquer everything
    The question now is : which of those two loves, is the true one?!
    ___________________

    Jiraiya's timeline : here
    Zetsu, the strongest villain of Akatsuki : here

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    Re: Jiraiya Mega Convo

    Icha Icha isn't confirmed to be the sequel to TGN. We don't even know the story of Icha Icha lol

    Remember Jiraiya said that "sexing up stuff" was his specialty, so I suppose he was referring to the success of Icha Icha vs the failure of TGN.

    And are you sure he wrote Icha Icha after the Kyuubi attack? If there was a link saying so, would you mind showing it? I don't recall such a thing ever being mentioned >.> if you meant the previous stuff I talked about, I don't think that's really sufficient to say anything about the timeline from which Icha Icha was written.

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    Re: Jiraiya Mega Convo

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Melody View Post
    Icha Icha isn't confirmed to be the sequel to TGN. We don't even know the story of Icha Icha lol

    Remember Jiraiya said that "sexing up stuff" was his specialty, so I suppose he was referring to the success of Icha Icha vs the failure of TGN.

    And are you sure he wrote Icha Icha after the Kyuubi attack? If there was a link saying so, would you mind showing it? I don't recall such a thing ever being mentioned >.> if you meant the previous stuff I talked about, I don't think that's really sufficient to say anything about the timeline from which Icha Icha was written.
    From what I understood about him saying that he would sex up the sequel, he was thinking to write a 2nd book.

    And this second book was probably Icha Icha (I guess it's a Shinobi adventure, just like TGN, but with sex).

    When he said «This is my real forte», I don't think he was talking about previous book he wrote, I think he was just saying that sexy women were his speciality

    That's how I understood it.
    I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that, at the time he was talking with Minato, Icha Icha wasn't written yet and he was just getting the idea of putting more sex in his next novels.

    I'll look for hints of the Icha Icha timeline, but I don't know if we can find much.

    According to Naruto, Jiraiya wrote 4-5 books, but he's more guessing than anything, so I don't think we can really affirm that he wrote 4-5 Icha Icha book.

    Spoiler show


    From the manga, we only know three of them :

    - Icha-Icha Paradise

    Spoiler show


    - Icha-Icha Violence

    Spoiler show


    - Icha-Icha Tactics

    Spoiler show


    Paradise and Violence were seen in Part1, Icha-Icha Tactics was written during the timeskip.

    Seeing how he's proud of Paradise and that he says that he's getting famous, I think Paradise is his first book (since TGN) and that he started the Icha-Icha series afterward.
    And since he's "starting" to get famous with those novels, I think it prooves that he just started to write those (during the 12 years of travel after Minato's death).

    ______________

    Thinking of it...
    Wouldn't it be funny if it was really a sequel of TGN?
    That would mean that the Main Character in Icha-Icha is named Naruto, too!!

    I tried to find places where we could read a bit of the Icha-Icha to try and see if the Main character was called Naruto, but I could only find two places where we can see the book open.

    Spoiler show


    I might have miss something, but I don't think we can say for sure with the information we have from the manga right now.
    But from the information that I saw, I'm pretty sure that he wrote the Icha-Icha series after the Kyubbi attack, when he left the village.
    Last edited by THM Nindo; May 24, 2009 at 10:24 PM.


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    The question now is : which of those two loves, is the true one?!
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    Zetsu, the strongest villain of Akatsuki : here

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    Re: Jiraiya Mega Convo

    The timeline is superb.

    As for Juugo, I think that if he gets younger by adding his flesh to someone else, it might explain why he's so young or appear so young. Dunno if that was talked about. I thought it was unnecessary to mention Juugo and Anko.

    Now the thing is, how long was Jiraiya staying with the Ame 3? It should be a period that's more than 3 years. I would say that Jiraiya spent 3+ years with the Ame 3 but that's my own opinion.


    (Please read from right to left.)

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    Re: Jiraiya Mega Convo

    Quote Originally Posted by segua View Post
    The timeline is superb.

    As for Juugo, I think that if he gets younger by adding his flesh to someone else, it might explain why he's so young or appear so young. Dunno if that was talked about. I thought it was unnecessary to mention Juugo and Anko.

    Now the thing is, how long was Jiraiya staying with the Ame 3? It should be a period that's more than 3 years. I would say that Jiraiya spent 3+ years with the Ame 3 but that's my own opinion.
    3 years, he says so himself: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/373/13/

    Naruto War Tracker: 2 days of combat, 63 chapters, 40,000 alliance soldiers lost (50%). Significant alliance characters lost: 0

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    Re: Jiraiya Mega Convo

    Well it'd have made sense I suppose. But then, did his travels after the Kyuubi attack count as the "travel round the world" that the elder toad spoke of then? Icha Icha seems to be the books that the toad was referring to in the prophecy(those that would help unravel Pain's secret).

    If it is, I suppose it'd fit the timeline relatively well.

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    Re: Jiraiya Mega Convo

    Quote Originally Posted by segua View Post
    The timeline is superb.

    As for Juugo, I think that if he gets younger by adding his flesh to someone else, it might explain why he's so young or appear so young. Dunno if that was talked about. I thought it was unnecessary to mention Juugo and Anko.

    Now the thing is, how long was Jiraiya staying with the Ame 3? It should be a period that's more than 3 years. I would say that Jiraiya spent 3+ years with the Ame 3 but that's my own opinion.
    Thanks Segua.
    I only mention Orochimaru researches (Yamato, Juugo and Anko), because I wanted to find out when exactly did Oro quit the village, because we know that after he quit, Jiraiya tried to make him come back.

    As for the Amegakure kids, he, himself, said that it was 3 years, so I think we can assume that it is 3 years.

    Spoiler show



    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Melody View Post
    Well it'd have made sense I suppose. But then, did his travels after the Kyuubi attack count as the "travel round the world" that the elder toad spoke of then? Icha Icha seems to be the books that the toad was referring to in the prophecy(those that would help unravel Pain's secret).

    If it is, I suppose it'd fit the timeline relatively well.
    I might be wrong, but I think he left to travel 3 times in his life:

    1. Around 15 years old.
    When he was really young, he left Konoha to travel and he stumble on the Myouboku Mountain.

    2. Before 23 years old.
    After having being told the prophecy, Jiraiya leave the Moutain and travel around the world (this is the travel around the world that the Sage Frog told him about). During that time he will see people and will use his own experience during that travel to write the book of the prophecy (The gutsy ninja).

    3. After Orochimaru left Konoha.
    He leave the village to try and get Orochimaru to come back. Seeing how he failed to have him come back, he decide to continue his travelling, getting information on Orochimaru and Akatsuki. During that last travel, he will also get to see some women to get some inspiration for his best-sellers Icha-Icha series.

    -----------------------

    The book of the prophecy is without any doubt «The gusty ninja» that he wrote between 23 and 26, while training with Nagato.

    The Icha-Icha series were written a long time after that (around 40 years old) and have nothing to do with the prophecy.
    Last edited by THM Nindo; May 25, 2009 at 11:36 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost


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    The question now is : which of those two loves, is the true one?!
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    Zetsu, the strongest villain of Akatsuki : here

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    Re: Jiraiya Mega Convo

    Why do you think Icha Icha has nothing to do with the prophecy? They're basically the books which held the keys to Pain's secret.

    If you were to follow my reasoning about the prophecy and Pain's secret, it would only go hand in hand that the book in question was/were the ones which would unravel Pain's secret(well Icha Icha tactics did).

    TGN on the other hand, while having large emotional connection, practically(as in practice) did not serve within the prophecy itself other than by emotional impact upon Naruto & Nagato.

    I mean, TGN could've been the book, but I wouldn't discount Icha Icha as having NOTHING to do with the prophecy...

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    Re: Jiraiya Mega Convo

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Melody View Post
    Why do you think Icha Icha has nothing to do with the prophecy? They're basically the books which held the keys to Pain's secret.

    If you were to follow my reasoning about the prophecy and Pain's secret, it would only go hand in hand that the book in question was/were the ones which would unravel Pain's secret(well Icha Icha tactics did).

    TGN on the other hand, while having large emotional connection, practically(as in practice) did not serve within the prophecy itself other than by emotional impact upon Naruto & Nagato.

    I mean, TGN could've been the book, but I wouldn't discount Icha Icha as having NOTHING to do with the prophecy...

    OKay, I get what you mean.
    But, the content of Icha-Icha didn't reveal anything about Pain. Jiraiya only used his memory to get 6 words out of one of his book.
    Icha Icha was indeed useful as Jiraiya used it to pass the message on Konoha about Pain's biggest secret, but I really think that the Book of the Prophecy is TGN.

    The Sage Toad told him to travel and to write a book about what he would see during that travel. In TGN, he basically say what happen during that travel : He saw how hatred and the current way of the ninja would never bring peace.
    And seeing how Nagato wanted to believe that peace was possible, he finished his book with the Main Character saying that he would never give up.

    This book is the base of everything.
    Actually, since last chapter, we can probably assume that it is this book that will change the world.
    By showing Nagato this book, he was able to bring a change in Nagato's mind.
    Who knows what might have happen if Nagato wouldn't have change side?

    To me there's no doubt that the book that changed the world was TGN.
    It is the link between Jiraiya and the two children of destiny.


    True love will conquer everything
    The question now is : which of those two loves, is the true one?!
    ___________________

    Jiraiya's timeline : here
    Zetsu, the strongest villain of Akatsuki : here

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  18. #330
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Forever_Melody's Avatar
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    Re: Jiraiya Mega Convo

    Yeah TGN does have an impact on both of them I agree.

    Hmm so you'd be suggesting Jiraiya traveled prior to the war and then finished TGN while training Nagato?

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