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That area will never have ever-lasting peace. I see that the tension there will erupt into all out war leading to WWIII.
Originally Posted by seguaAgreed.Originally Posted by segua
It is pretty obvious that both countries are wrong. The world decided to give Israel their own land without thinking about the people who already lived there. Arab countries attacked the newly formed israel and lost because Israel had the support of the world. Since then on many occasions Israel has encroached further on Arab land, if left unchecked I have no doubt that Israel would take all of Palestine without a second thought.
Arab terrorists attack Israel because it is the only thing that they can really do. You know, besides give up the rest of their homeland. Anyone looking at this has to remeber that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. There are people all over the world wearing Che Guevara shirts right now, yet depending on who you ask he is a hero or a terrorist, same with Osama Bin Laden, same with Malcolm X.
Palestine doesn't have an army, so they have two choices. Fight back any way that they can (Terrorism). Or give up their land. Wait actually there is a third choice.... be exterminated.
For the people who said that the world should stay out of it... that may have been a viable solution 60 years ago. But now if the world were to turn a blind eye Israel would easily destroy Palestine. The U.S ships bombs to Isreal everyday.
Having an army doesn't make the actions of Israel any better then the actions of Palestine. Palestinians kill civilians with suicide bombs, Israel does it in an organized manner with tanks, machine guns and missles. Different approach same result.
I don't see any way for this to be resolved except a world war, and that war will hopefully wake up the entire world so peace can actually be reached afterwards. That or Mutually Assured Destruction where we all die. (Yay for nukes!)
I love what you wrote.
Both countries are at fault but I'm sure they will hate idealist lol.
Muslims fanatics seems to have blurred the lines between suicide and martyrdom. Suicide bombs have been known to kill innocent people from both sides. Suicide is when you take your own life regardless. Martyrdom is when someone else takes your life because of you hold dear to a principle and resist change/comprimise.
As for Israel, if the world left them alone, I'm pretty sure the Israeli government will try to push for a genocidal program to elminate all Palestinians there though the current government may not hold the same views or beliefs as some of it's citizens.
What many countries dont know is that both the palestines and the people of israel haved lived for years with each others and they managed to live together and that they sell to palestines guns and weapons to fight and also yeah i agree that both are wrong, but what about the new situation and the killing of innocent people in lebanon espically children.
I believe that is the doing of the government and its army not the people themselves so what i think is that it is getting worse and yeah i also agree that there might be a WW3.
Let me start this off by saying that this is just my opinion and that it isn't meant to offend anyone. I think that most of the wars in the world are caused over different religious beliefs.An example of this is the Israel-Palestine conflict. That is a conflict between the Islamic and the Jewish people. The same thing could be said about the USA war on terrorism. That, in my opinion is a conflict between Christianity and Islam. If poeple really want peace in this world thy should set aside their religious differences and then maybe a peaceful resolution could be reached. I am looking at this from a neutral point of view because my own country (South Africa) is not even involved in this war and i do not have a religion.
Well you guys and ladys now walk the right way. I have followed this debate for a long time now and I just want to throw in my few words.To talk about it you need to stay neutral in my case its appropriate because Im neither Muslim nor Christian Im an atheist studying everything in order so see what fits me best.
First of all : The USA is on the israelic side. If you watched the current news you will have noticed that the USA used their VETO right in the UN debate about nuclear weapon inspection in Israel. I wont tell you why thats up to you. If you want to know about it inform yourself. Now about the history part. Israel never belonged to the Jews to put it straight ! Its not Israel vs. Palestinian its Jews vs Muslim. I know that you people always tried to avoid that in this discussion but thats simply it. Its not making it better to not tell the truth. And now back to the history part. This country and even more(whole north of Africa,etc) always belonged to the Osmanian Empire. Its longing back till ancient times. In WWI it ended with the defeat of the Osmanian Empire at the gates of Austria and the 14 Points of US President Wilson who was a wise men and tried to bring justice to all those who suffered in WWI for example Belgium is still Belgium because of that. (For info study the history ^^. )
One of the 14 points said that every part of the area belonging to the Osmanian Empire is to be shared among the tribes. Now all tribes of the Osmanian Empire are Muslim. So you see the Jews never even where allowed to establish there. The Country always belonged to the Osmanian Empire this whole Jesus affair is very questionable because we have no evidences for whats said in the Bible nor have we evidences for whats standing in the Qoran.
So I stick to what is said in books and we come to the WWII where Jews where slaughtered because of the thoughts of a tyrant who thought that some people deserve more rights than others. Back then as someone said the Jews where encouraged to establish in the South because they were neither liked in the West nor in the East in other words France/England or Russia. Im not going into detail. Thats where it all started. They established in Israel and today we see whats going on. You can make you own opinion about it. This is the truth I havent invented anything of it. Now its up to you to judge who is responsible in YOUR opinion. Do it for yourself. Taking the opinion of someone else just because he has better arguments isnt really good. If you got some more questions about history feel free to ask me and if I can explain I will try my best to satisfy your hunger ^_^
very good post remus, I am glad there is someone neutral and knows the history, but if you know the history well could tell me your opinion about the following, the end of the osmanian emperor and the western take over of the middle east that happened with sykes and pico, the english and french man made a treaty and carved what was the osmanian empire into tiny bits and pieces that are today called the middle east, the arab israeli wars and the establishement of israel.
I will trust you will use historical facts on this, if there is more than one historical view about this, I hope you would mention it, and thanks again for your post.
You get it right to the point, eh ? Well the crisis begins here as you already foreshadowed it. The control of a 3rd party in a country with 2 rivaling peoples. The Sykes-Picot-Agreement (the reason was to get arabic support against the osmanians) as you mentioned in my opinion started it. Its like colonies of the British empire. Sooner or later someone will question it or someone starts to think about it. The Russian Revolution in this point was the trigger when the secret agrreement was revealed and the arabs started to doubt the so called help of Great Britain and France. Other agreements were made and in the end the control more and more slipped out of the hand of the arabs because the European supporters created a jewish government under their control with the agreement that arabs are to keep their rights. But its very complicated on this point and I really dont want to get into detail because its no longer neutral. The thing you need to know is that the British government in the end lost control over the quickly growing jewish society in todays Israel and they drove the arabs away which had the same rights but werent allowed or supported when they wanted to return to what was their inhabitance. After WWII Great Britain turned away from past Palastina and Israel was founded under full jewish control. The UNO was supposed to distribute the country but after Great Britain left the jewish government no longer wanted their advice. Thats how it started. Im not that great of an analysis expert but thats a smal overview. Hope I got it in right chronological order. Corrections appreciated.Originally Posted by conan
Hope thats what you wanted conan ^^
yup thats all right to my knowledge and like you said its really hard to know what happened after Great Britain left the whole mess becuase it s hard to stay neutral, and really nasty stuff and really bad wars happened at that time, and if they open up the old files a bad smell is going to come out, which made the whole thing a thousand times worse, becuase if your not going to take reponsibility for your history and what you did, dont expect any quick solutions, and I am talking about both sides, any way thanks for clearing the history remus, you did a really good job.
a very true analogy indeed.Originally Posted by enzomars
To tell the truth.... now Israel is a country officially in the minds of people or not.
there is nothing to do about it.
the only solution is for the people to accept it and for palestine and israel to treat each other with respect and forget about thier pasts and the past of the history of the land.
and also for palestien and israel to stop involving religion in thier causes because religion is a cause of Unity and Peace and never the other way around.
that's my personal opinion anyways..
lol just registered to say this... finialy I found a topic worth registering on MH for.... :P
I am sorry but I have to say that is quite naive, your telling people who lost everything they own, land houses ,farms, and their whole life style in just 50 years ago to just forget it, thats a bit stupid, I've already talked about what refugees went through, I agree that somethings should be forgotten, but to ask this much is just absolutely ridiculous, you cant step over history that simply, the people who made mistakes should take responsibility of what they did, lots of the people wronged are still alive, and if dead, their kids were most likely entrusted with their parents wishes, it hasn,t gone so far down the family line to be forgotten, dont you think.Originally Posted by roohani9
Yeah, I like the way a lot of you are taking this, from a historical perspective. So, after the Holocaust was through, we have millions of refugee Jews who are not wanted by most of the world; not necessarily because Jews are hated but think about it: who wants to accommodate millions of homeless, jobless people? So the United Nations split up what is now called Palestine and stick Israel in one half of the land. Naturally, the Arabs there are pissed off, they attack, and are crushed. Israel, being supported by one or 2 superpowers, is able to fend off constant attacks from belligerent Muslim nations. Essentially, they begin to be oppressive to the nations surrounding them. Hence, yes, both sides are wrong.
If you ask me who's stupidest in this issue, it was Europe. What in the hell were they thinking, making a nation in the middle of a volatile group of nations that would not accept a sovereign Jewish capital? The real solution should have been for a few countries to accept some Jewish refugees and incorporate them as citizens into their country; but as I said before, no one wanted to do that.
So what do we do now?
Some of you are saying we have to stay out of it. But, like Gold Knight nicely said before, this is never ending until one side is clearly the victor (and maybe not even then). How do you expect anyone to ever win, thus achieving peace, if no one takes sides? Without the support of the US, Israel would fight with some equality with the belligerent Arab nations, but it would never win. I feel like in a war like this, peace can't be achieved without someone stepping and crushing the other side. The catch is that after the war is won, you give rights back to the loser, and who knows if Israel would be OK with that.
That said, this whole issue is way too complex to be analyzed here. I'm not a scholar on this issue, just an observer. I think you'd need to ask people who really know what they're talking about.
I'll agree with you on that most mistakes were made by europe and the history records are still there recording that, I already mentioned the sykes and pico treaty with remus a few posts backOriginally Posted by 76trombones
well I'd rather be more optimistic but your comments are somehow reasonable and realistic, but after saying that I dont know how people could blame the palestinians on taking arms to fight , lots of people although comment on the way they fight more than that they are fighting, as in make civillians a target and such.Originally Posted by 76trombones
well your comments are welcome as an observer, it is actually an issue that lacks attention.