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^^ About ur ranking, how do figure that youruichi and urahara are above shunsui, ukitake, and unohana? Especially considering that shunsui and ukitake have been commented by yama that they are the best among those who came before and after them??
Also, I think people overestimate isshin too much. SO he killed an arrancar with only shikai. SO what?? Shunsui is fighting the strongest espada wiithout even releasing his sword.
As for hikifune, sure she could be strong, but I still think she is below uki, shunsui, and unohana
Last edited by kkck; June 04, 2009 at 03:35 PM.
I agree with the Urahara, Isshin, and Hikifune arguments above.
Urahara, while a genius for inventing things, hasn't shown us anything in combat other than that he can hold his own against Ichigo's shikai in his own shikai, as well as Yammi, and that baby arrancar (cna't remember his name right now....). Nothing to show us that he is more powerful than some of the old timers like Uki, Shunsui, and Unohana.
Isshin, well, consider this, Grand Fisher was NOT EVEN A MENOS, just a rather powerful normal hollow, who took his mask off ON HIS OWN (no hogyoku, meaning weaker than other arrancar we have seen so far), and Isshin is captain level. Captain vs. normal hollow=rape, Captain vs. normal hollow as an arracar=still rape. I mean, normal captains definitely can take on a gillian menos with unreleased sword, I don't see what the huge accomplishment of killing a normal sized arrancar without releasing is.
Hikifune, so what, she was "promoted" to zero squad. When was it ever implied that zero squad>thirteen court guard squads other than the "promotion". Who knows too, maybe she's just an unranked member or lowly ranked member of the zero squad, it was never stated that she would be like the leader of the zero squad or something super special like that. I don't see why zero squad even needs to be more powerful than the thirteen court guard squads. Think about it in relation to real life. Which is more powerful, the police and military forces combined (thirteen court guard squads), or the secret service for the president (let's assume we're talking about the USA)? I mean sure, the president (King) needs competent protection, but is the protection of the president (King) more important than the protection of the people as a whole? I don't think so. Therefore, I regard Hikifune as being promoted to the zero squad as neither a compliment or a detriment to her possible powers. I mean, we don't even know ANYTHING about her other than that she was a captain, and she was promoted, we don't know how long she was a captain, we don't know how others regarded her as a captain, just that she was a captain, that was promoted, we havn't even seen her face. She's one of those people that you can't judge at all IMO, as we have seen absolutely nothing of her.
Grand fisher had his mask removed by iceringer, he did not do it on his own.
My bad, but same point, a manually removed mask vs. a hogyoku removed mask, hogyoku yields more power. Either way, I'm not seeing killing grand fisher arrancar as impressive.
It's only impressive because Isshin did it without releasing and in the blink of an eye. I mean, it's just an effortless kill that's it. Byakuya technically beat the hell out of Ichigo in the same way when they first met >.>
Would you expect anything less of a captain vs. a non menos arrancar? I mean, look at it this way, Rukia effortlessly killed a gillian/adjuchas (unknown since in the Grimmjow gaiden they are adjuchas but yet HItsu and Aizen state them to be gillian) with just her first shikai technique (just one attack IIRC), yes, its mask was broken when it was a hollow, preventing further development, but it remains that they were menos grande prior to being arrancar, and that a VC killed it so easily. Grand FIsher is not even a menos grande, just a more powerful than average hollow, then his mask was manually removed, w/o the hogyoku unlike the other arrancar we have seen. I am really not impressed by the fact that Isshin killed him. Would you even expect a captain to release to shikai against a normal hollow? No. I wouldn't even expect them to release to shikai against a non-arrancar gillian. Hell, Ichigo, before he even knew the name of his zanpakutou (meaning, no possibility of Shikai) defeated a gillian, and at that time, his powers were less than that of a VC (weaker than when he fought Ikkaku, and he didn't know his zanpakutou's name). So when I see a captain, meaning once one of the strongest Shinigami in SS, beating a non menos grande arrancar (w/o hogyoku), I'm truly unimpressed.
That said, I do have reason to believe that Isshin is decently powerful due to the simple fact that Ichigo is powerful and that Urahara regards him with respect. THat's just my opinion and hopes for the future, but I'm not seeing any concrete evidence to back up that Isshin is very powerful.
Well I never said anything concerning his power. I just commented that he made an effortless kill(which he did).
I even paralleled that we've seen a current SS captain(and other characters for that matter) perform effortless kills. Why was Byakuya's "victory" over Ichigo when they first met so "omg"? I didn't see why it was looking back at it. Ichigo wasn't even using "real" shinigami powers at the time. All Byakuya did was shunpo behind him and strike a vital spot. That's it. I'd expect nothing less from a captain attacking a shinigami who doesn't have their own Zanpakuto and who can't release.
The point is that at that point, we weren't introduced to stronger opponents so Byakuya's victory seemed greater than what it is now. Same reasoning. When Isshin first came along, we hadn't even been introduced to arrancar yet. Remember when that chapter came out, no Espada, not even Fraccion were introduced(other than D-Roy way back when). It only seemed impressive at the time like Byakuya's feat. Looking back at it, it wasn't much at all.
Really we have very little to base Isshin's strength off of if not that Ichigo's strength is born from Isshin's(as Masaki is still not confirmed anything but a human so far). Urahara hopes it didn't decrease due to him(Urahara), but other than that, Urahara himself does not comment upon Isshin's strength.
Last edited by Forever_Melody; June 05, 2009 at 03:03 PM.
Okay, then you agree with me in saying that defeating a non menos arrancar unreleased and effortless is a tiny feat for one who was a captain in the SS.
Anyhow, I don't know what Ichigo's strength says about Isshin's. I mean, it gives me the gut feeling that Isshin is pretty strong himself, since Ichigo's actual shinigami powers, not just his powers activated and borrowed from Rukia were passed down from his father. Not real or concrete evidence, but that's just my own hunch.
Well I mean there has to be some correlation in genetics. I mean in SS they praise the noble families as strong and give them proper training and they typically achieved some good levels of strength so lineage seems to have a certain if not small impact.
Also, that sash on the side of Isshin's arm is a captain's haori so at least we know he's among the higher tier of SS shinigamis >.>
Well, yeah, I know that he was strong enough to be a captain of course, but how strong of a captain was he, I don't know, but like I said, my hunch is that he will be decently strong as Ichigo's pretty strong. Just a prediction by me, but who knows what will happen.
Do you guys want me to make an info-thread with the official databook stats of all the gotei 13 captains? The stats are from right before Aizen left SS. Anyone interested?
Also please warn me if such a thread already exists, but I haven't seen it yet, so I thought it might come in handy. ^^