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Thread: Ranking of Captains

  1. #616
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby_Temple View Post
    No. The reason he did is because he could with his own raw power alone.
    Win against:

    A giant gorilla that howls a lot.
    A women that can't stop talking.
    A clone that copies everything to the most minimal detail, including Kenpachi's tendency to weaken himself.

    That's some true raw power right there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby_Temple View Post
    Now compare the fight against As Nodt.
    As Nodt's was an actual fight. He didn't just stand there explaining his power forever. Or he did, but after attacking first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby_Temple View Post
    He prevailed against 2 shinigamis, one a captain the other a potential captain.
    Because As Nodt actually put his skill to good use. Those other 3 SR literally ran willingly into Kenpachi's sword.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby_Temple View Post
    Now can you logically expect the same result if As Nodt faced Zaraki Kenpachi mano-y-mano?
    As Nodt would have been smart, use his Quincy techniques, abilities and skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby_Temple View Post
    No, it was totally wasn't. A lot of fans complained earlier about how Zaraki's fights were off-paneled. He was defeated because he went after the quincy who was a whole lot stronger than him.
    That he was defeated is irrelevant. He only killed those 3 SR to inflate his image before losing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby_Temple View Post
    Then you need to read the chapter again.
    No, YOU need to read that chapter again. Here, I'll help you.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...17-page-5.html

    Look at Haschvald's expression right after Kenpachi ends his ridiculous explanation. He just stands there for a moment, then hesitates for a second before giving an emotionless compliment.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  2. #617
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Toby_Temple's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post

    No, YOU need to read that chapter again. Here, I'll help you.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...17-page-5.html

    Look at Haschvald's expression right after Kenpachi ends his ridiculous explanation. He just stands there for a moment, then hesitates for a second before giving an emotionless compliment.
    No. YOU need to reread it again. Read what he said after - I heard that you were a monster. I guess it's true.

    He did not think that their data was accurate until he saw what Zaraki can do without bankai.
    NO to KUROSAKI ICHIGO USING a BOW!!!

  3. #618
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Essentially, killing a bad guy in a manga shouldn't be considered as an achievement, then.
    All the villains go on and on about their powers while the protagonists do their best to fight, which is the reason why good guys come out on top all the time.
    Generalization time! It's the best time of them all. The difference between SR 'Q' and others is that the others at least move.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    For the record, Hinamori is more skilled than 90% of the characters.
    Just saying.
    She's certainly not more skilled that Kenpachi, because you can't divide by zero.

    ---------- Post added at 03:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby_Temple View Post
    No. YOU need to reread it again. Read what he said after - I heard that you were a monster. I guess it's true.

    He did not think that their data was accurate until he saw what Zaraki can do without bankai.
    You should be paying attention to the images, the paneling, the characters, their actions and the way they talk instead of only reading what's inside the text bubble. Haschvald almost said that sarcastically.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  4. #619
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    I moved the posts to the mostly related thread here, you can go on as you wish now.

    About Haschwald's acknowledgement..
    Haschwald looked worried for a moment when Kenpachi began his attack. There is no denial to him being aware of Kenpachi's raw power in this regard.
    His raw power grants him enough skill when it comes to killing off people. He isn't the most cunning captain, but he used a good strategy against his battle with Tousen, and was wise enough to use his Kendo move against Nnoitra.

  5. #620
    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    I said he has no skill whatsoever because that's the truth. Even calling him vice captain level or seated officer is pointless. All he has going at the moment is powerful reiatsu, so teaching him how to fight would be a massive improvement.
    I never said it wasn't...I just wanted to be sure, what you are exactly referring to, that's all...but being captain level is not really about the skills isn't it...well not entirely...someone who has not skills can complement that lack with raw power, like Kenpachi, or complement it with a having a hollow inside for example...

    And there is one more thing to consider too...the inside rules of the 11th division...by which Kenpachi qualified, and it was recognized by SS...that raw power is enough to put him in the captain tier...

  6. #621
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    I agree with benelori on this one, Kenpachi doesn't know how to use shinigami arts effectively but even in this state he is strong enough to defeat captain-class opponents. His reiatsu is raw but nonetheless very strong, and after proper training and possibly communication with his zanpakuto, it won't be a farfetched assumption to believe that he may surpass senior captains. He's the only other character besides Ichigo the main character whose spiritual pressure is so high that his zanpakuto can't be sealed, he was hinted to have a great potential since the early days of the manga.

  7. #622
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Generalization time! It's the best time of them all. The difference between SR 'Q' and others is that the others at least move.
    And they are not defeated. I'm talking about the ones to get defeated. No villain will continuously attack and overpower you until you die. They will probably stop and say some arrogant words at some point, either initially or after gaining the upper hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    She's certainly not more skilled that Kenpachi, because you can't divide by zero.
    You got my point, though. Skill is irrelevant in some battles. No matter how good you are at what you are doing, if your ceiling is limited, that doesn't really matter.
    Hinamori has a ceiling of 50 and uses probably 45 of it. Say, if Kenpachi had 250 and utilized somewhere near half of it, he would be overwhelmingly strong for Hinamori at any rate (numbers don't matter here, neither the characters do).
    But I suppose you are saying Kenpachi utilizes 0% of it, which is not going to be relevant, since body strength shouldn't be discarded in this debate.

    ---------- Post added at 03:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:32 AM ----------



    You should be paying attention to the images, the paneling, the characters, their actions and the way they talk instead of only reading what's inside the text bubble. Haschvald almost said that sarcastically.[/QUOTE]

  8. #623
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I moved the posts to the mostly related thread here, you can go on as you wish now.

    About Haschwald's acknowledgement..
    Haschwald looked worried for a moment when Kenpachi began his attack. There is no denial to him being aware of Kenpachi's raw power in this regard.
    His raw power grants him enough skill when it comes to killing off people. He isn't the most cunning captain, but he used a good strategy against his battle with Tousen, and was wise enough to use his Kendo move against Nnoitra.
    Haschvald always yells if Bach is "in danger", so about pretty much everything.
    Slashing aimlessly and getting himself cut just because that gets you closer to your attacker can't be considered skill. And he didn't use Kendo against Nnoitra, he said that he wasn't interested in learning, but he did get something out of it and that was that using two hands is stronger than using just one. That slash that nearly cut Nnoitra in half was just the natural body movement of pulling something towards you, not Kendo.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  9. #624
    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    You should be paying attention to the images, the paneling, the characters, their actions and the way they talk instead of only reading what's inside the text bubble. Haschvald almost said that sarcastically.
    Almost, but didn't...so in the end it doesn't matter...the gestures, mimic and overall behaviour of the character doesn't point towards usage of sarcasm, in fact quite the opposite...so assuming that it was "almost" sarcasm...

    The guy plainly said, with an expressionless face, that "I guess it's true"...he is coldly acknowledging the raw power of having beaten 3 SR...

  10. #625
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Haschvald always yells if Bach is "in danger", so about pretty much everything.
    Slashing aimlessly and getting himself cut just because that gets you closer to your attacker can't be considered skill. And he didn't use Kendo against Nnoitra, he said that he wasn't interested in learning, but he did get something out of it and that was that using two hands is stronger than using just one. That slash that nearly cut Nnoitra in half was just the natural body movement of pulling something towards you, not Kendo.
    Whatever you may call it, if something helps you kill an opponent, I'd say it's a skill. He doesn't bother to dodge, he doesn't bother to observe his opponent's power, et cetera.
    He is still captain class with respect to brute power.

    ---------- Post added at 03:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by benelori View Post
    Almost, but didn't...so in the end it doesn't matter...the gestures, mimic and overall behaviour of the character doesn't point towards usage of sarcasm, in fact quite the opposite...so assuming that it was "almost" sarcasm...

    The guy plainly said, with an expressionless face, that "I guess it's true"...he is coldly acknowledging the raw power of having beaten 3 SR...
    I'm not really getting "the sarcasm" thing here, to be honest. Does he have to carry a shell-shocked expression with wide open eyes for him to be considered serious?
    Kenpachi was already listed as a war potential, so, it's clear from the beginning that Haschwald wasn't going to have a "How could this happen?" expression on his face.

  11. #626
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by benelori View Post
    Almost, but didn't...so in the end it doesn't matter...the gestures, mimic and overall behaviour of the character doesn't point towards usage of sarcasm, in fact quite the opposite...so assuming that it was "almost" sarcasm...

    The guy plainly said, with an expressionless face, that "I guess it's true"...he is coldly acknowledging the raw power of having beaten 3 SR...
    Look at the panel before that, right after Kenpachi stops talking. He was left speechless at such display of ...whatever Kenpachi fits in intelligence.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  12. #627
    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Haschvald always yells if Bach is "in danger", so about pretty much everything.
    Slashing aimlessly and getting himself cut just because that gets you closer to your attacker can't be considered skill. And he didn't use Kendo against Nnoitra, he said that he wasn't interested in learning, but he did get something out of it and that was that using two hands is stronger than using just one. That slash that nearly cut Nnoitra in half was just the natural body movement of pulling something towards you, not Kendo.
    That slash was powerful, because it was Kendo...the most basic level of what Kendo can offer, but still Kendo...there's no use in denying that...

    ---------- Post added at 11:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I'm not really getting "the sarcasm" thing here, to be honest. Does he have to carry a shell-shocked expression with wide open eyes for him to be considered serious?
    Kenpachi was already listed as a war potential, so, it's clear from the beginning that Haschwald wasn't going to have a "How could this happen?" expression on his face.
    Well I'm saying almost the same thing...he wasn't sarcastic at all

    ---------- Post added at 11:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Look at the panel before that, right after Kenpachi stops talking. He was left speechless at such display of ...whatever Kenpachi fits in intelligence.
    First you are reading too much into a silent panel...he wasn't left speechless, because he did speak after all...but that doesn't really matter, since it's each to his own regarding the interpretation of panels...

    But nobody is arguing that Kenpachi is the genius of the world...people are saying that his lack of intelligence or other basic shinigami skills still doesn't disqualify him as captain level...that's all

    As I said before, Kenpachi lacks a lot, but he can complement that with raw power...is it enough or not? Clearly SS suffered a horrible defeat, so it's not enough against the Quincy, but that's just the level of the captains in SS...but it's still called captain level

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  14. #628
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by benelori View Post
    Well I'm saying almost the same thing...he wasn't sarcastic at all
    I know, I wasn't trying to oppose there, just added my comment on top of yours.
    Anyway, Torran, to think that Kenpachi isn't captain class when all the captain class Shinigami aside from he himself and Captain-Commander didn't win a single battle just doesn't make sense.

    Let it be a trio of gorilla, talkative woman and a copier, he still won those battles. In fact, the events that lead up to his defeat against Royd have never shown him to lose a battle, aside from his initial encounter with Ichigo, which is more of a plot move when compared to him defeating 3 SR to justify the beating he was due to receive.

  15. #629
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I know, I wasn't trying to oppose there, just added my comment on top of yours.
    Anyway, Torran, to think that Kenpachi isn't captain class when all the captain class Shinigami aside from he himself and Captain-Commander didn't win a single battle just doesn't make sense.

    Let it be a trio of gorilla, talkative woman and a copier, he still won those battles. In fact, the events that lead up to his defeat against Royd have never shown him to lose a battle, aside from his initial encounter with Ichigo, which is more of a plot move when compared to him defeating 3 SR to justify the beating he was due to receive.
    Ah okay...

    And there's the matter of the rest of the manga too, where Kenpachi shows that he is captain level...deservedly so...just basing an argument on 3 off panel fights, when you have content worth of an entire manga before that fight is not doing justice to the character

  16. #630
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    I can swing a stick and naturally follow the same movement. That 2hand thing was meant to show Kenpachi can get serious if the situation demands it, not that he knows Kendo.

    And Kenpachi's explanation WAS stupid, so Haschvald was speechless for a second, but he didn't find anything to say so he complimented him.

    But I'm not going to debate Kenpachi is physically strong. I never did. But he does get lucky most of the time and he also lacks proper skill, relying on brute force and reflexes most of the time.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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