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Thread: Ranking of Captains

  1. #631
    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    I can swing a stick and naturally follow the same movement. That 2hand thing was meant to show Kenpachi can get serious if the situation demands it, not that he knows Kendo.
    I'm not really sure that you can naturally follow the same movement...even simple movements like that require training...the 2hand motion and the added power that came from it showed that Kenpachi did learn something and that he executed a basic kendo move correctly, as he was taught...that means he knows a little bit of Kendo, not that he is a master...I never claimed he knew Kendo in its entirety, I said he knew a basic move...but that move was still a Kendo move...

    And the reason why Kenpachi named that basic move as Kendo, is because that's all he knows about it
    Quote Quote:
    And Kenpachi's explanation WAS stupid, so Haschvald was speechless for a second, but he didn't find anything to say so he complimented him.
    Look that's your interpretation, so have at it...I'm not going to argue interpretations...for me that panel means that Haschvald was regarding him and measuring him up...and after that he came to his conclusion...

    Different interpretations of a panel that has no relevance on the topic of Kenpachi being captain level or not...
    Quote Quote:
    But I'm not going to debate Kenpachi is physically strong. I never did. But he does get lucky most of the time and he also lacks proper skill, relying on brute force and reflexes most of the time.
    He does, and he lacks proper skill too...that's why I posed my initial question to you...to see what are you referring to when you say he is not captain level...and it's true that considering his basic 4 shinigami skills, he is not even top 5 seat level worthy...Yumichika could probably show more mastery of technique when it comes to shunpo, kidou, even basic knowledge of the sword, not to mention zanpaktou communication...

    But in spite of all that Kenpachi as an overall soldier of SS and character in Bleach is still captain level...thanks to his brute force...physical strength, reiatsu power, instinct, reflexes, etc...

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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    i think kempachi will be the strongest shinigami and most important in this arc
    Last edited by Nihonshu; December 18, 2012 at 08:09 AM.

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  4. #633
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    How can it be said kenpachi was never that strong? Once he went to the kendo thing he took down the espada with the confirmed hardest hierro in a couple of hits which is specially significant if we consider every aspect of nnoitora's release was meant to make him a lethal close combat. Kenpachi can never be "VC" material simply because at its lowest possible level his reiatsu is already strong enough for kenpachi to be a proper captain level shinigami. Perhaps if we consider the fact that kenpachi has no technique whatsoever for the most part and even then he is able to fight with captain class enemies (like unreleased nnoitora) then there is the slight possibility that even with his eye patch he has actually more reiatsu than your regular captain as he is basically making up for actual battle skills with reiatsu alone. Even recently halshwald considered kenpachi's reiatsu to be "suffocating" which is quite impressive considering that was kenpachi's reiatsu at its lowest possible level. Kenpachi has fought tousen and komamura consecutively (and those two were well above the level of a measly VC) and recently he took out 3 stern rittern rather easily.... You could put an army of VC level shinigami in front of kenpachi and even with his eyepatch on he wouldn't break a sweat against them (not that other captains would have trouble doing such a thing though).

  5. #634
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by benelori View Post
    I'm not really sure that you can naturally follow the same movement...even simple movements like that require training...the 2hand motion and the added power that came from it showed that Kenpachi did learn something and that he executed a basic kendo move correctly, as he was taught...that means he knows a little bit of Kendo, not that he is a master...I never claimed he knew Kendo in its entirety, I said he knew a basic move...but that move was still a Kendo move... And the reason why Kenpachi named that basic move as Kendo, is because that's all he knows about it Look that's your interpretation, so have at it...I'm not going to argue interpretations...for me that panel means that Haschvald was regarding him and measuring him up...and after that he came to his conclusion... Different interpretations of a panel that has no relevance on the topic of Kenpachi being captain level or not... He does, and he lacks proper skill too...that's why I posed my initial question to you...to see what are you referring to when you say he is not captain level...and it's true that considering his basic 4 shinigami skills, he is not even top 5 seat level worthy...Yumichika could probably show more mastery of technique when it comes to shunpo, kidou, even basic knowledge of the sword, not to mention zanpaktou communication... But in spite of all that Kenpachi as an overall soldier of SS and character in Bleach is still captain level...thanks to his brute force...physical strength, reiatsu power, instinct, reflexes, etc...
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...2-page-18.html

    He just swung with two hands, because that's the only important thing he got out of that Kendo training.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...2-page-20.html

    This is just the natural motion of swinging something towards you. Unless you want to hit yourself.

    That panel with Haschvald is the same type of panel Kubo uses for comedy when something stupid happens. It is relevant because it means Haschvald didn't compliment Kenpachi wholeheartedly. I said vice captain material, and then corrected myself saying that even that doesn't apply to him. If you removed Kenpachi's reiatsu and made him fight against the average Shinigami Academy student or any seated officer he would most likely loose, because they at least have some skill in sword fighting, Kido and hand to hand combat. Kenpachi is lucky to have high reiatsu hardening his skill and fast reactions, and having most of his opponents be also brutes like Nnoitra and Yammi, because in a fight against weaker yet more capable opponents he would lose.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  6. #635
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Well, I am not kendo expert by any standards however if you look at the previous page it seems like kenpachi did get a perfect kendo stance before nnoitora attacked. And I doubt the issue is as simple as that being the only plausible way to move his arms, so far it seemed like kenpachi did kinda get a perfect swing on the thing.

    Anyways, some time ago I was rereading kenpachi's fight with nnoitora and in some online reader which I can't quite recall I got the impression that the fight between nnoitora and kenpachi was a tad different from what it is in the previous link. Was the fight in the volume different from the fight in the manga chapter? Where can I read the actual volumes if that was the case?

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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihonshu View Post
    That was never said. Its funny how much you analyse panels trying to make a point yet you blatantly twist facts and just make up crap.
    Oh, so it wasn't said directly so it's not true? Kenpachi just plays around and gets himself into more trouble, and knows nothing about proper fighting, so Shunsui said it's time to put that power to good use, because with three powerful allies gone they need all they can gather and Kenpachi is just there nearly dead because of his stupidity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihonshu View Post
    Kempachi is VC material ? wtf lol. every single moment from beginning to now of this manga has concluded that Kempachi is incredibly strong.
    You didn't read the thread, didn't you? Kenpachi can't be classified anywhere because he's just strong and nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihonshu View Post
    Why would a "VC level captiain" by a special war potential who took out 3 sternritters?
    Because if he put his strength to good use he might be able to fight against actually strong opponents, not just 3 SR that just got themselves killed with ease.

    And "War Potential" is not given to everyone who is strong, but those who have no affiliations or are willing to go far to beat an enemy, the reason Yamamoto wasn't considered one despite being the arguably strongest normal Shinigami.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihonshu View Post
    Dont even bother arguing with little kids because they just twist facts and see what they want to see.
    Even though that's you doing that. And "little kids"? Ha. Internet Insults 101. Way to kill your credibility with your first post.

    ---------- Post added at 11:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    How can it be said kenpachi was never that strong?
    Because people seem to think he can lift skyscrapers or beat something as huge as Komamura's Bankai with just his fists. But he's just as physically strong as a captain (which is pretty strong alright) with powerful and sharp reiatsu. That's it. No Kido or long range techniques, no skill, nothing. Even his hardened skin can be easily cut by competent opponents all the time. As he's now he's not even close to being the strongest captain anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Once he went to the kendo thing he took down the espada with the confirmed hardest hierro in a couple of hits which is specially significant if we consider every aspect of nnoitora's release was meant to make him a lethal close combat. Kenpachi can never be "VC" material simply because at its lowest possible level his reiatsu is already strong enough for kenpachi to be a proper captain level shinigami.
    And I already said that ranking him anywhere is pointless because all he is good at is cutting things.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Perhaps if we consider the fact that kenpachi has no technique whatsoever for the most part and even then he is able to fight with captain class enemies (like unreleased nnoitora)
    Nnoitra wasn't very fast or agile. Just strong like Kenpachi. Same for Yammi. And Giriko also fought with physical power. And those SR got themselves killed. Ichigo didn't even know Shunpo or proper swordsmanship when they fought. He's been lucky with the match ups. Even an Espada weaker than Nnoitra would have been more successful since they can at least fly or use special abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    hen there is the slight possibility that even with his eye patch he has actually more reiatsu than your regular captain as he is basically making up for actual battle skills with reiatsu alone.
    Reiatsu alone is not going to get him anywhere without luck. He only fought against an opponent not suit for him (Tousen) once, and was powerless until he allowed himself to get stabbed twice just to get a clear shot. Getting stabbed as the only chance is ABYSMAL as far as battle capabilities go.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Even recently halshwald considered kenpachi's reiatsu to be "suffocating" which is quite impressive considering that was kenpachi's reiatsu at its lowest possible level.
    That was the editor's text they put at the start of end of a chapter, not Haschvald.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Kenpachi has fought tousen and komamura consecutively (and those two were well above the level of a measly VC)
    That was barely a fight. They released and cut him, then they attacked, he blocked them, taunted them, then Tousen went Bankai, after which he was just dodging. Not much to go by.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    recently he took out 3 stern rittern rather easily
    Which is not an achievement since they were almost if not as idiotic as Driscoll, having the power to withstand ZANKA NO FREAKING TACHI a few meters away but never using Blut Vene. They just stood there waiting to be killed.

    ---------- Post added at 11:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, I am not kendo expert by any standards however if you look at the previous page it seems like kenpachi did get a perfect kendo stance before nnoitora attacked. And I doubt the issue is as simple as that being the only plausible way to move his arms, so far it seemed like kenpachi did kinda get a perfect swing on the thing.

    Anyways, some time ago I was rereading kenpachi's fight with nnoitora and in some online reader which I can't quite recall I got the impression that the fight between nnoitora and kenpachi was a tad different from what it is in the previous link. Was the fight in the volume different from the fight in the manga chapter? Where can I read the actual volumes if that was the case?
    If you want to call that the Kendo stance. Just grab a long stick with both hands. You'll end up in that position unless your body has awkward proportions. The motion used to swing with both hands is exactly what Kenpachi did. You usually move aside to avoid hitting yourself, unless you are one of those people that stick their eye into the scope of a rifle or grab a pistol with one hand only to get hit in the face by the recoil.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  8. #637
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    You didn't read the thread, didn't you? Kenpachi can't be classified anywhere because he's just strong and nothing else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Because people seem to think he can lift skyscrapers or beat something as huge as Komamura's Bankai with just his fists. But he's just as physically strong as a captain (which is pretty strong alright) with powerful and sharp reiatsu. That's it. No Kido or long range techniques, no skill, nothing. Even his hardened skin can be easily cut by competent opponents all the time. As he's now he's not even close to being the strongest captain anywhere.
    Decide one way, please, if you don't mind.
    Is he really strong or just as physically strong as an ordinary captain?
    I'd say he's really strong, since he took direct hits from Tousen's Shikai blades and shrugged it off like nothing.

  9. #638
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Well, as far as we know it is not that far fetch that kenpachi can lift skyscrapers quite literally. He did throw that huge chunk of rock across a rather large distance rather easily.

    Saying it does not necessarily make it true . It is perfectly valid for him to be good solely at cutting things, he has the sheer raw power for it anyways. Most fighters are quite similar to that to begin with except that they have shikais or bankais.... I mean, love has a huge mace, renji has a sword which extends itself, ikkaku has a speak and huge blades or something and so on.... What makes kenpachi hard to rank is not his lack in skill in every area of combat but rather the fact that he has never actually fought at 100% or even close to that. He barely controls his reiatsu and swings his sword like a madman and even then he is able to take on captain level properly trained enemies.

    Nnoitora was pretty damn strong and I would think he had the speed or agility to live up to quinta. Obviously his forte was strength and overall melee combat however we can't just disqualify his speed. He never had trouble keeping up with kenpachi and kenpachi has never shown himself to be slow even though he has never even shown shunpo.

    You are putting that in the worst possible light possible which is IMO unreasonable. True, kenpachi had to take a hit to deal with his lack of senses against tousen however that also speaks volumes of his sheer stamina and endurance which are perfectly valid and useful battle capacities. Kenpachi puts any other shinigami to shame in either department, that is the reason he can afford to get his gut stabbed and continue fighting captain level opponents consecutively. Reiatsu alone is not enough in what could be called "normal" situations. Kenpachi is not a normal situation. In a normal situation you would have enemies comparable in power to you and you would beat them through skill or some strategy. So far what has happened to kenpachi is not quite luck in the context that he overcame the odds in an impossible battle. The only luck he has is that he for some reason has such an overwhelming amount of reiatsu that so far the strategies and skills his enemies have had and tried against him have simply not worked (except juhabach). Skills and tactics matter against an opponnent comparable in reiatsu, kenpachi so far has basically unquantifiable amounts of it.

    That not being there in the chapter outside of halswalds text makes the situation worst. Its past the mere opinion of a manga character, it is directly the author's words (not just the editor).

    How is it not much to go by? Kenpachi directly took the hits from tousen's and komamura's shikai and even then he stood his ground like nothing happened. Then he took the full might of tousen's bankai and proceeded to fight komamura like if nothing had happened. The manga did say that komamura stoped fighting almost as soon as the fight began but I would argue that kenpachi being able to handle the both of them on his own in quite significant.

    Thats ridiculous, why would we think they were anything like driscol? We barely even saw them. Even if they were not exceptionally strong they were still stern as a matter of fact which means they were not weak or anything of the sort to begin with. More so, driscol didn't lose because he was stupid for that matter. He went all out the second the fight agaisnt genryusai began, his opening move was a bankai which he used to whatever extent he could. Driscol started out using every bit of power he had (which to be fair is quite smart) and he lost because the full might he had was naught in light of the overwhelming power yamamoto has. Its just a huge and overwhelming difference in reiatsu. Driscol in the end was simply not strong enough to get to a point where his apparent stupidity would be an issue. Driscol could have been a genious and yamamoto would have stomped him just the same. The only thing which can be said against driscol in this regard is perhaps that he didn't use a bankai-volstandif combination although we don't know just yet if that is actually possible. I guess the actual smart thing to do would have been to not fight yamamoto however if yamamoto actually had his sights on him he couldn't possibly escape anyways.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Decide one way, please, if you don't mind.
    Is he really strong or just as physically strong as an ordinary captain?
    I'd say he's really strong, since he took direct hits from Tousen's Shikai blades and shrugged it off like nothing.
    I said that he's just as strong as a captain. I'm not going to go by "ordinary" because I doubt the so hyped senior captains are as physically strong as Komamura. If he has survived so far is because he at least his body is as strong as a captain's. Just to make an example, Ichigo was able to block Nnoitra's scythe and Yammi's punch and he wasn't even at full power then. So it's not like Kenpachi pulling off some stunts like kicking Tousen or pulling Komamura is anything special as captains send their opponents flying all the time.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  11. #640
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Roman's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    First, Ichigo was being compared to Inoue and now Kenpachi isn't that strong? What you're smoking, must be out of this world. I'm beginning to think that you're just a troll with good grammar knowledge.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    First, Ichigo was being compared to Inoue and now Kenpachi isn't that strong? What you're smoking, must be out of this world. I'm beginning to think that you're just a troll with good grammar knowledge.
    Says the actual troll. I have all the evidence on my side and you have your strawmen and closemindedness on yours.

    So about "comparing Inoue to Ichigo", which I never did but rather said that her barrier are special in that they can negate events and not block attacks, I can give even more proof. For example, Ulquirra, who can easily brush off black Getsuga Tenshous, who can pack a real punch with a simple swing of his sword, and who had full intentions of killing Ichigo, was effortlessly blocked by Inoue's barrier. Why? Because her barrier are not just a physical obstacle.

    Stop thinking with your fist and get this into your thick head.

    And now you probably missed most of the discussion and instead attack me with nothing to back you up. I said Kenpachi is not that strong because people were comparing him to Yamamoto. He's physically strong, has powerful reiatsu and has the potential to become actually useful against any opponent, but instead he just seeks a fight at the expense of the world going to hell.

    ---------- Post added at 05:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, as far as we know it is not that far fetch that kenpachi can lift skyscrapers quite literally. He did throw that huge chunk of rock across a rather large distance rather easily.
    Don't take that literally. Captains can smack each other across entire cities and do that all the time. What I meant was that even though he is definitely captain level strong physically, that doesn't mean he's strong enough to stand out among the captains.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Saying it does not necessarily make it true . It is perfectly valid for him to be good solely at cutting things, he has the sheer raw power for it anyways. Most fighters are quite similar to that to begin with except that they have shikais or bankais.... I mean, love has a huge mace, renji has a sword which extends itself, ikkaku has a speak and huge blades or something and so on.... What makes kenpachi hard to rank is not his lack in skill in every area of combat but rather the fact that he has never actually fought at 100% or even close to that. He barely controls his reiatsu and swings his sword like a madman and even then he is able to take on captain level properly trained enemies.
    I never debated this point. Back to my original post, which was related to what Shunsui said, Kenpachi is not even worth captain material as he stands now, and that includes his state of mind. He was fucking stupid going after Bach by himself. Shunsui said the "art of killing", or teaching Kenpachi how to get the most out of his power rather than just fighting for the excitement of the battle. Actually, if I were to rank every character based on reiatsu, reiatsu control, power, abilities, kido, shunpo, sword skill, reflexes, hand to hand combat skill, agility, intelligence and so on, Kenpachi would rank below most Shinigami, even seated officers. His power chart would be one empty circle with a big spike pointing towards the "power" area. That's what I meant by "not captain material". Sure, in a fist fight he stands a chance against a strong opponent, but what about a long range battle? Even some Fraccion like that one that transforms into an iron eagle would be able to beat Kenpachi as he is right now. Brute force can't take you everywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Nnoitora was pretty damn strong and I would think he had the speed or agility to live up to quinta. Obviously his forte was strength and overall melee combat however we can't just disqualify his speed. He never had trouble keeping up with kenpachi and kenpachi has never shown himself to be slow even though he has never even shown shunpo.
    Nnoitra wasn't slow, but not fast either. A tank more than anything they both had good reflexes and agility though. But still, Kenpachi got lucky. I can't see him beating Grimmjow or Szayel or Zommari.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    You are putting that in the worst possible light possible which is IMO unreasonable. True, kenpachi had to take a hit to deal with his lack of senses against tousen however that also speaks volumes of his sheer stamina and endurance which are perfectly valid and useful battle capacities.
    This is straying too much from "skill". A cannon was a very powerful weapon centuries ago but it wasn't very portable or versatile.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Kenpachi puts any other shinigami to shame in either department, that is the reason he can afford to get his gut stabbed and continue fighting captain level opponents consecutively.
    Ichigo and Komamura have endured more. But Kenpachi gets more energetic as he gets hurt, so I guess it's a draw.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    In a normal situation you would have enemies comparable in power to you and you would beat them through skill or some strategy. So far what has happened to kenpachi is not quite luck in the context that he overcame the odds in an impossible battle. The only luck he has is that he for some reason has such an overwhelming amount of reiatsu that so far the strategies and skills his enemies have had and tried against him have simply not worked (except juhabach). Skills and tactics matter against an opponnent comparable in reiatsu, kenpachi so far has basically unquantifiable amounts of it.
    Contrary to popular belief, Kenpachi is not immortal, hard to cut or goddamn Hercules. Every time he fights seriously he ends up almost dead. All it really takes to beat him is a good hit. Characters considered to be much weaker like Tousen because "LOL HE GUT BEATEN BY VICECAPTAIN LMFAO" had no trouble cutting him at all. Ichigo had no trouble cutting and outmaneuvering him once he gained resolve. Nnoitra had no trouble stabbing and cutting him multiple times. Royd apparently beat him with fists alone even with the eye patch off. He's just not on Ichigo's or Yamamoto's or Aizen's level as far as Shinigami go, at least not now.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    That not being there in the chapter outside of halswalds text makes the situation worst. Its past the mere opinion of a manga character, it is directly the author's words (not just the editor).
    It changes things a lot. That text was just introducing Kenpachi to the scene, which is completely different from Haschvald commenting how suffocating his reiatsu was. Because some characters like Byakuya also have massive reiatsu.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    How is it not much to go by? Kenpachi directly took the hits from tousen's and komamura's shikai and even then he stood his ground like nothing happened. Then he took the full might of tousen's bankai and proceeded to fight komamura like if nothing had happened. The manga did say that komamura stoped fighting almost as soon as the fight began but I would argue that kenpachi being able to handle the both of them on his own in quite significant.
    He stood up as if nothing even though he was cut pretty badly, because that's his character. The only real exchange that happened was that he blocked their slash and kicked Tousen.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Thats ridiculous, why would we think they were anything like driscol? We barely even saw them. Even if they were not exceptionally strong they were still stern as a matter of fact which means they were not weak or anything of the sort to begin with. More so, driscol didn't lose because he was stupid for that matter. He went all out the second the fight agaisnt genryusai began, his opening move was a bankai which he used to whatever extent he could.
    Strength doesn't matter if all you are going to do is talk forever and not do anything. The Stern Ritter have Blut Vene, which is strong enough to take a skyscraper sized GT to the neck, survive a direct blow from Ryujin Jakka and get close to Yamamoto with Zanka no Tachi west active. And Royd blocked Kenpachi easily, and Ichigo took Bach's sword to the neck with a small cut. Yet those SR Kenpachi killed didn't use it. So calling killing those stupid idiots an achievement is just not right. Royd was right in calling them naive. Everybody would be dead by now if they had been actually serious. Mustachio could have used Vollstandig for another second and one shot Shunsui and so on. Actually, now that I think about it, Driscoll was smarter than most of the other SR, as he at least tried to kill Yamamoto with a frightening Bankai right away, even if he didn't use Blut Vene.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Driscol started out using every bit of power he had (which to be fair is quite smart) and he lost because the full might he had was naught in light of the overwhelming power yamamoto has. Its just a huge and overwhelming difference in reiatsu. Driscol in the end was simply not strong enough to get to a point where his apparent stupidity would be an issue. Driscol could have been a genious and yamamoto would have stomped him just the same. The only thing which can be said against driscol in this regard is perhaps that he didn't use a bankai-volstandif combination although we don't know just yet if that is actually possible. I guess the actual smart thing to do would have been to not fight yamamoto however if yamamoto actually had his sights on him he couldn't possibly escape anyways.
    The smart thing would have been to use Blut Vene, that ability that can block almost anything. Bankai + Blut Vene = near invincibility.

    I never complained about the captains not going Bankai during the Fake Karakura battle along with everybody else and now I'm the sole complainer about the Quincy not using their abilities. What the hell.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Well, not standing out from other captains is still not quite the same as kenpachi being weak. As he is he is definitely just at a level comparable to any of the remaining captains however that is still pretty good. I would argue that what shunsui says is more of a response to the sudden change in the gotei 13 situation rather than kenpachi being actually useless or in any form weak. Shunsui is too under qualified and particularly underpowered to be the captain commander, he alone can't possibly stand up to juhabach or have the impact in the war genryusay would have had on a bad day. Its not that kenpachi is actually useless or that as he is he is not strong enough to be a captain, its just that SS needs him to be at the highest conceivable level he can be to make up for the overall helplessness which is currently plaguing the squads. Kenpachi as a proper captain level shinigami is not enough and he has plenty more to give.


    Well, yes, kenpachi would definitely get low marks in comparison to other shinigami if you were to grade him on every fighting aspect however contextually that does not work on kenpachi and it is overall not important. Kenpachi's chart is indeed an empty circle with him having high marks on defense and offense though. Its not like kenpachi can be taught those things overnight either. Kido is highly specialized and as far as we know required finely tuned control over reiatsu. Kenpachi is definitely not learning a shred of it as it would require him years of training for it to be useful (unless he gets low level kido overnight however those would be at large useless). Even the few captains that actually use kido in battle only use a few select spells which they use to complement what they do (and that is only byakuya for that matter, the rest of the captains have barely bothered with kido at all). Hand to hand combat would at large be useless for kenpachi as he is a swordsman to begin with, it would be a waste of time to get into that now. Shunpo is a skill which ichigo would suggest can be acquired fast although only at the basic level which most captains show. Agility is unlikely to change much. The nimble stuff does not suit him at all as far as we have seen. Intelligence is not quite something which is bound to improve at this point. Its not like kenpachi has shown to actually make bad calls in battle (unless he does them intentionally), he did kinda figure out tousen's bankai and beat him with what he had at his disposal and he did pretty good against nnoitora.

    The arrancar who fought kira wouldn't lay a feather on eyepatch kenpachi if he was ten times stronger... Back when shikai ichigo beat renji kenpachi made a point of saying that ichigo was significantly stronger than a VC and even then ichigo was not able to cut kenpachi. Of course, a long range fight against a proper captain level enemy would be more of an issue however only if the enemy can keep kenpachi at bay. Quincy are in principle long range fighters and even then kenpachi walked up to them and killed 3. So far all the stern rittern have the same rank (at least until now there does not seem to be a difference in rank between them which would denote a difference in power as with captains and VC) meaning they are all ranked as captains. Kenpachi, and basically any other captain we have seen with a few rare exceptions, would only have trouble in a ranged fight if the enemy is able to keep him at bay and that in itself is a tad complicated. Even then, there is basically no chance of kenpachi learning long range skills in the immediate future. The odds of kenpachi learning even low level kido in the immediate future are well against him and if there is any justice in the world his eventual sword release will sport simply melee abilities.

    In context the only thing which kenpachi has a shot a learning and should be taught is kendo, perhaps shunpo and probably how to commute with his zampakuto (which he could theoretically do when he isn't training). That is the one thing kenpachi mentioned which yamamoto tried to teach him and which was referenced by the chamber 46 this chapter. For the rest there is neither a point or time to teach him.

    I actually get the impression kenpachi is the one with quite a bit more endurance. Overall he is the one that actually has a reputation for not falling no matter how many times you cut him. Nnoitora in particular did a number on him and even then he basically walked out of the fight. From what I recall others have fallen with the injuries he has taken at large. Komamura has taken a decent bit of damage through the manga but kenpachi in turn is actually able to continue fighting as if nothing had happened.

    Well, but in context the text would only apply to halshwald. Why wouldn't it apply? Whats the point of the author writing that there if it does not apply to anyone in the chapter? It's arguing that kubo basically trolled us while it is simpler and it makes more sense to believe halswald found his reiatsu suffocating (which is not quite the same as haslwald being weak in any way).

    Blutz vene and blutz arterie cannot be used at the same time and based on what we know of them it makes perfect sense that when yamamoto attacked driscol he was using blutz arterie. He was in the middle of attacking yamamoto with all of his might. And even then, I would have to question whether driscol's bluz vene would have been able to block yamamoto's RJ. Royd was able to stop kenpachi's blade on its tracks with no damage and in turn took a slight cut from yamamoto's ryujin jakka. If the guy who took out kenpachi easily could barely block yamamoto's sword with vene, what chance did driscol ever had? I don't think bankai actually allows quincy to use the full might of blutz vene while having a perfect offense with bankai.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, not standing out from other captains is still not quite the same as kenpachi being weak. As he is he is definitely just at a level comparable to any of the remaining captains however that is still pretty good.
    I never said that he was weak, but rather that he's not that strong, referring to a comparison with Yamamoto in the chapter discussion. He's certainly captain level strength wise and his reiatsu level should be somewhere between average captain level and Ichigo/Yamamoto/Aizen levels, so in a fight where only those two matter (almost every single one of his fights) it should benefit him, but otherwise he's just helpless.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I would argue that what shunsui says is more of a response to the sudden change in the gotei 13 situation rather than kenpachi being actually useless or in any form weak. Shunsui is too under qualified and particularly underpowered to be the captain commander, he alone can't possibly stand up to juhabach or have the impact in the war genryusay would have had on a bad day. Its not that kenpachi is actually useless or that as he is he is not strong enough to be a captain, its just that SS needs him to be at the highest conceivable level he can be to make up for the overall helplessness which is currently plaguing the squads. Kenpachi as a proper captain level shinigami is not enough and he has plenty more to give.
    Shunsui said that they needed to train Kenpachi because Yamamoto is dead and Ichigo and Byakuya are in the Royal Palace and who knows when they will return. As he is right now, Kenpachi is useless. Blut Vene alone is enough to stop him. He has the potential to be an actual captain material all around yet he is just there getting himself killed all the time, because he lacks discipline and skill. "I'm going to teach Zaraki the art of killing".

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, yes, kenpachi would definitely get low marks in comparison to other shinigami if you were to grade him on every fighting aspect however contextually that does not work on kenpachi and it is overall not important. Kenpachi's chart is indeed an empty circle with him having high marks on defense and offense though. Its not like kenpachi can be taught those things overnight either.
    Yes, it is actually very important. He has only been on a serious fight against an ability oriented fighter and he was helpless then. I repeat, allowing yourself to get hit just to buy time is abysmal in terms of strategy; that should be by far the last option, yet it was his only one. His rank in offense is circumstantial, because he's always fought easy to reach targets. Against even most Fraccion or vice captains he's useless. And in defense he's almost zero. Getting hit on purpose then brushing off the injuries is past the point of defense, it's suicide.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Its not like kenpachi has shown to actually make bad calls in battle (unless he does them intentionally), he did kinda figure out tousen's bankai and beat him with what he had at his disposal and he did pretty good against nnoitora.
    Because Kenpachi is not an idiot, he just likes to act like one. But even then, figuring out that his senses were gone was nothing impressive. It just shows he's not brain dead. As for the rest, even if they aren't fully consequential, they do affect battles. If one fails, the rest can compensate with another tactic, Kenpachi is just doomed to keep using brute force and suicide attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    The arrancar who fought kira wouldn't lay a feather on eyepatch kenpachi if he was ten times stronger... Back when shikai ichigo beat renji kenpachi made a point of saying that ichigo was significantly stronger than a VC and even then ichigo was not able to cut kenpachi. Of course, a long range fight against a proper captain level enemy would be more of an issue however only if the enemy can keep kenpachi at bay.
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...6-page-12.html

    That Fraccion can fire an unlimited amount of them and are more powerful than cannonballs. He can fly and move at fast speed, and being on of Barragan's bodyguards he must be adept at reiatsu control. Kenpachi is not impossible or even hard to cut. Ichigo simply sucks at sharpening his reiatsu. Look at his trail when he is in the Garganta. He couldn't even cut Aizen even though every other captain could. All it takes is a competent fighter to cut Kenpachi. And overall, Kira won by using his ability and not power.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Quincy are in principle long range fighters and even then kenpachi walked up to them and killed 3. So far all the stern rittern have the same rank (at least until now there does not seem to be a difference in rank between them which would denote a difference in power as with captains and VC) meaning they are all ranked as captains.
    You would have a point there if those Quincy Kenpachi killed would have at least done something useful with their abilities, but even the smartest of the bunch, Royd, should have stuck to his own skills rather than transforming into Kenpachi.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Kenpachi, and basically any other captain we have seen with a few rare exceptions, would only have trouble in a ranged fight if the enemy is able to keep him at bay and that in itself is a tad complicated. Even then, there is basically no chance of kenpachi learning long range skills in the immediate future. The odds of kenpachi learning even low level kido in the immediate future are well against him and if there is any justice in the world his eventual sword release will sport simply melee abilities.
    All of his opponents have been fighting at close range before, so he got lucky. And he may not be able to learn Kido and such in a short time, but his main problem is his tendency to limit himself, which is what must be fixed. What Unohana must do first is to tell him to stop being such an idiot and get serious for once.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, but in context the text would only apply to halshwald. Why wouldn't it apply? Whats the point of the author writing that there if it does not apply to anyone in the chapter? It's arguing that kubo basically trolled us while it is simpler and it makes more sense to believe halswald found his reiatsu suffocating (which is not quite the same as haslwald being weak in any way).
    Because that text adds nothing. Many chapters end with "X is in danger, what will they do next time??" and "The savior has arrived!!" Kenpachi's introduction was along these lines. Haschvald was no reason to even think his reiatsu is suffocating. When Ichigo arrived he pumped reiatsu so strong that it was solidifying, coming out of his body and even the ground, and making the air explode, yet he didn't even flinch. "In context" just doesn't apply here, just typical comic/manga drama.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Blutz vene and blutz arterie cannot be used at the same time and based on what we know of them it makes perfect sense that when yamamoto attacked driscol he was using blutz arterie. He was in the middle of attacking yamamoto with all of his might.
    I can't see a connection between using a stolen Bankai and using Blutz. But if you go by his though at the time, he must have believed Yamamoto had fainted, considering he was just there smoking and bleeding from the intense lightning.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    And even then, I would have to question whether driscol's bluz vene would have been able to block yamamoto's RJ.
    Every instance of Blut Vene before has been shown to endure massive attacks with close or no injuries at all. Quilgue took a planet sized Getsuga to the neck, As Nodt took a slash to the chest, NaNaNa, Buzzbee and Nodt survived a nuke by Yamamoto, Royd took Ryujin Jakka to the arm and later he and Haschvald were a few meters from Yamamoto as he was burning at 15M degrees, Ichigo took a stab to the neck and Bach must have used it to endure that Getsuga the next page. Why would Driscoll be an exception?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Royd was able to stop kenpachi's blade on its tracks with no damage and in turn took a slight cut from yamamoto's ryujin jakka. If the guy who took out kenpachi easily could barely block yamamoto's sword with vene, what chance did driscol ever had?
    Why do you think Royd is actually any stronger than Driscoll, or any of the other SR for that matter? Yamamoto is not 10x captain level or anything despite what many people believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I don't think bankai actually allows quincy to use the full might of blutz vene while having a perfect offense with bankai.
    I don't think they are connected. Zanpakutous have their own spiritual pressure too, and the medallions steal the spirit in them.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Roman's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    You're not reading nuclear physics and it's actually not that serious. Beside the fact that it's impossible, you're reading a Shounen manga. No matter what conclusions or understandings you get from little details, Ichigo is always gonna come on top. Not to mention the fact that opinions differ, TO AN EXTENT.

    If it was an attack, it would've been more severe. I'm just saying what it looks like. You're downplaying the power of one of the most popular characters in this Manga and NO ONE agrees with you, which should tell you that you're the one with the thick head.

    Yeah, Kenpachi actually has the potential to be Yamajii from my pov. Seeking fights doesn't decrease his strength. That's in his character and that's what actually makes him cool for the most part. He's frighteningly powerful even without Shikai, Bankai, Kendo or any other technique. He's simply fighting with his latent potential and talent. Logically, one could assume how powerful he could become if he ever acquired aforementioned techniques. That's a given for a lot of people and it's normal that it shouldn't be discussed since it's ridiculous to even question it. But you, of course, managed to surprise probably most of us.
    Last edited by Roman; December 14, 2012 at 05:21 AM.

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  18. #645
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    I never said that he was weak, but rather that he's not that strong, referring to a comparison with Yamamoto in the chapter discussion. He's certainly captain level strength wise and his reiatsu level should be somewhere between average captain level and Ichigo/Yamamoto/Aizen levels, so in a fight where only those two matter (almost every single one of his fights) it should benefit him, but otherwise he's just helpless.
    Certainly captain level? You were saying he was VC or even not seated officer a couple of pages ago.
    He's a close range combatant, so, what you call luck actually makes a lot of sense. It's like saying Mayuri confronted Szayel Aporro and not another arrancar out of pure luck.
    In the end, I'm pretty sure Byakuya tracked Rukia's reiatsu and Mayuri most likely made his own bet in finding the scientist man of the opponent. That leaves the close ranged Nnoitra to Kenpachi. Scenario is fitting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Why do you think Royd is actually any stronger than Driscoll, or any of the other SR for that matter? Yamamoto is not 10x captain level or anything despite what many people believe.
    Um, could it be because Driscoll turned into ash and Royd received a minor injury from the very same man?

    ---------- Post added at 05:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:54 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    I said that he's just as strong as a captain. I'm not going to go by "ordinary" because I doubt the so hyped senior captains are as physically strong as Komamura. If he has survived so far is because he at least his body is as strong as a captain's. Just to make an example, Ichigo was able to block Nnoitra's scythe and Yammi's punch and he wasn't even at full power then. So it's not like Kenpachi pulling off some stunts like kicking Tousen or pulling Komamura is anything special as captains send their opponents flying all the time.
    Kicking someone or pulling down another who was disrupted isn't what I'm talking about, either.
    I'm referring to Tousen's Benihiko. Surely not all the captains can continue fighting like nothing happened after getting hit by so many swords.

    And about Komamura's physical strength;
    Of course, he is much stronger physically than average captain would be. Reiatsu may be another issue, but physical prowess alone makes him elite in that department.
    Last edited by Hakuteiken; December 14, 2012 at 06:57 AM.

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