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Thread: Ranking of Captains

  1. #721
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    I may be arrogant, but you top the charts in persistence. Yeah, I say that because he, in fact, beat 3 Quincies. Long range fighters or not, he beat them. I'll humor you. You claim that he can't fight against long range attacks. On what basis? Did he lose against such an opponent? You interpret that fight as if it was dozen chapters long when, in fact, it had couple of panels. Out of couple of panels, you manage to write 10+ ridiculous posts about how that fight went on or ended. But it DIDN'T. You know why? Because the opponents were MEDIOCRE, long range fighters or not. They were so miserable against Kenpachi that they were lying in blood the next time you saw them. Conclusion? THEY WERE NO MATCH FOR HIM. Kenpachi is a fucking power monster.

    I couldn't care less for other posters, but in this instance, that persistence and thickness you embrace, might help you out to gain eye-sight. But I guess I'm wrong, it doesn't affect your false logic.
    Oh wow, don't change the topic. You can't make a proper argument. You've lost.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Oh wow, don't change the topic. You can't make a proper argument. You've lost.
    Exactly an answer I was expecting when I properly asked you to back up your claim. You fail miserably.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    I'm talking in general, your case apply more when opponents are roughly of the same level (Aizen and Hitsugaya for example are captain level, hence if Aizen for example couldn't control his reiatsu at all, he'd lose to Hitsugaya ofc)

    But as a general rule : The one with the biggest amount of reiatsu, is the strongest one, all the more if he have complete control over it
    But the thing is Aizen & Toshiro ain't both captain lvl. Aizen is above captain lvl (capable to stunning a captain lvl with mere reiatsu itself).

    A clash between a shinigami is a clash of reiatsu the "stronger hurts the weaker" (not who has more reiatsu).
    Ichigo can have 1000 times the reiatsu of a captain & still lose in a clash to Byakuya because the reiatsu he used in that clash is weaker than the reiatsu Byakuya used. He could also lose because he couldn't control his reiatsu properly.

  4. #724
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    Exactly an answer I was expecting when I properly asked you to back up your claim. You fail miserably.
    I did multiple times and you twist up facts and logic just as many times, then dare to call my logic flawed. It's impossible to argue with you, because now I do it yet again and change the subject.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  5. #725
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    I did multiple times and you twist up facts and logic just as many times, then dare to call my logic flawed. It's impossible to argue with you, because now I do it yet again and change the subject.
    I didn't twist anything, but that's not the problem. The problem is that you can't back up your claim. To stay on the topic, enlighten me please and elaborate your opinion:

    Why do you think that Kenpachi would have a hard time against a long range fighter? Did such a fight occur? Did Kubo whisper something in your email? I don't recall ever Kenpachi having a hard time against anyone besides Ichigo and Juucha Bach. Unless the manga states it, your claim is invalid. Logical enough for you?

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    I didn't twist anything, but that's not the problem. The problem is that you can't back up your claim. To stay on the topic, enlighten me please and elaborate your opinion:
    Yes you did. First with strawman after strawman changing my claim, ad hominems non stop then contradicting a claim I never disagreed with, then claiming I ate my own words by using logic as flawed as it gets and now you are changing the topic and claim I don't back up my claims even though I've done nothing but that the past 20 pages. But I'll do it once again because your memory doesn't seem to grasp anything older than 10 minutes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    Why do you think that Kenpachi would have a hard time against a long range fighter? Did such a fight occur? Did Kubo whisper something in your email?
    Okay, so what would Kenpachi be able to do against a long range fighter? He has no Shunpo, no Kido, no thrown weapons, no defense or any control over his own reiatsu to even find an opponent that is attacking from the shadows. All he can do is dodge. And the same happens against special ability opponents, he was also only able to dodge against Tousen. He's powerless in that situation. Unless he throws a rock, but rocks at meaningless. He's stuck to the ground for close combat fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    I don't recall ever Kenpachi having a hard time against anyone besides Ichigo and Juucha Bach.
    He had a hard time against Tousen and Nnoitra, who forced him to abandon stupidity for a second and get serious. Yammi was too big and way too stupid to cause him any trouble, Giriko decided to use brute strength instead of his condition based ability and out of those 3 SR he killed one transformed into a perfect replica (short range), the other didn't even fight and the gorilla just made really loud noises but in reality was just a bigger target. None of them used their Quincy powers because if they did, they would be alive. Blut Vene is nothing to laugh at, neither is Vollstandig. Nor those silver containers that can use all sorts of sealing or offensive abilities, or special spirit clothing, or that technique Royd used for instant death that Yamamoto had to use corpses to stop. None of that. Kenpachi was just shown getting close and killing them, which by the way, were on the ground where he could easily reach them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    Unless the manga states it, your claim is invalid. Logical enough for you?
    Too logic in fact, that's what you call a logical fallacy. The manga doesn't have to state something to be true. Kenpachi has no skills and relies on his brute force to fight in close combat.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Okay, so what would Kenpachi be able to do against a long range fighter? He has no Shunpo, no Kido, no thrown weapons, no defense or any control over his own reiatsu to even find an opponent that is attacking from the shadows. All he can do is dodge. And the same happens against special ability opponents, he was also only able to dodge against Tousen. He's powerless in that situation. Unless he throws a rock, but rocks at meaningless. He's stuck to the ground for close combat fights.



    He had a hard time against Tousen and Nnoitra, who forced him to abandon stupidity for a second and get serious. Yammi was too big and way too stupid to cause him any trouble, Giriko decided to use brute strength instead of his condition based ability and out of those 3 SR he killed one transformed into a perfect replica (short range), the other didn't even fight and the gorilla just made really loud noises but in reality was just a bigger target. None of them used their Quincy powers because if they did, they would be alive. Blut Vene is nothing to laugh at, neither is Vollstandig. Nor those silver containers that can use all sorts of sealing or offensive abilities, or special spirit clothing, or that technique Royd used for instant death that Yamamoto had to use corpses to stop. None of that. Kenpachi was just shown getting close and killing them, which by the way, were on the ground where he could easily reach them.



    Too logic in fact, that's what you call a logical fallacy. The manga doesn't have to state something to be true. Kenpachi has no skills and relies on his brute force to fight in close combat.
    All of his opponents probably had Shunpo, Kido, defense control, weapons. The ones who lost against him, did those things help them? No, apparently not so much.

    He had a hard time, yeah. He's not Aizen who defeated everyone on a whim. But he won eventually, against those opponents, which alone proves his value. Kido, Shunpo and other bullshit obviously isn't that necessary for him to win. Can you comprehend that?

    But in many cases it does. In this situation, for instance, we definitely need facts, which we don't have. But apparently, you make your own facts, thus making this debate infinite. Yeah, his brute force proved to be a valuable asset and he's known for it. Any other thing that he acquires as of now will simply make him even stronger than he already is.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    But the thing is Aizen & Toshiro ain't both captain lvl. Aizen is above captain lvl (capable to stunning a captain lvl with mere reiatsu itself).

    A clash between a shinigami is a clash of reiatsu the "stronger hurts the weaker" (not who has more reiatsu).
    Ichigo can have 1000 times the reiatsu of a captain & still lose in a clash to Byakuya because the reiatsu he used in that clash is weaker than the reiatsu Byakuya used. He could also lose because he couldn't control his reiatsu properly.
    This is where I disagree with you, you have to understand one thing about Ichigo (as he seems the only affected by this) : His mental state have a huge impact on his powers, the best example is his fight against Gin, at the beginning, they seemed to be roughly equals (Ichigo was motivated then), the moment he saw Aizen's transformation and felt his reiatsu, he lost hope and then basta, it was clear Gin was superior even when Ichigo used his Hollow powers

    But this very situation so far didn't happen with any other character though so... I wouldn't take it as a general rule

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    I can't imagine Kenpachi switching from close combat to anything (or, more precisely, from his style to any other). When he's attacked by a very long range fighter, he should evade and possibly try to get close enough to gain an advantage; the best option, though, would be to find a better matchup and leave the enemy to another captain who can handle him better.

    But I'm starting to imagine a team made of captains, possibly influenced by Tower of God manhwa. Imagine these positions:
    - 'scouts' which can be vanguard but also do specialized tasks outside the main battlefield: Soifon in shikai
    - close range: Kenpachi, Kensei
    - middle/long range: Byakuya with kido and bankai, Rose
    - support: Shinji or Ukitake with their zan abilities
    - medics: keep Unohana here, to bring Ken-chan to good use
    - universal (can fill any position to a certain extent): Kyoraku, Toshiro (elemental zan is very flexible)
    - badass stroong (good destructive power but not really usable as anything other than a finisher against someone who's hard to beat without others): Soifon in bankai, Komamura
    Erfworld

    Quote Originally Posted by Bromamura View Post
    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    This is where I disagree with you, you have to understand one thing about Ichigo (as he seems the only affected by this) : His mental state have a huge impact on his powers, the best example is his fight against Gin, at the beginning, they seemed to be roughly equals (Ichigo was motivated then), the moment he saw Aizen's transformation and felt his reiatsu, he lost hope and then basta, it was clear Gin was superior even when Ichigo used his Hollow powers

    But this very situation so far didn't happen with any other character though so... I wouldn't take it as a general rule
    Let me put it simple for you to understand, Ichigo was capable of one-shotting a capable captain like Byakuya in his bankai irrespective of what Byakuya does UNTIL his reiatsu made him so slow that even Byakuya was capable of almost doing the samething to Ichigo (Ichigo lacked the experience & control to effectively use his powers & this is fact. Ulq made mention of how Ichigo's power fluctuates). Hell Kubo gave Ichigo, phantom speed that very chapter but his speed was anything but phantom like considering how it was made useless against his opponents after (again he couldn't control his powers effective which was something Byakuya mentioned to). He was a newbie.

    Also the "stronger hurts the weaker" was something picked up from the manga http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...05-page-7.html
    Fact of the matter is, even though Ichigo lacked the resolve against transcended Aizen, before that moment, (when Yama gave him the opening), he unleashed his full might (full power GT) & even Aizen thought it was pitiful (hell Zangetsu said the samething when Ichigo was in the dangai world).

    So again, Ichigo's power fluctuates (regardless of his mindset) because of his inexperience & that is just pure indisputable fact.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    ... So again, Ichigo's power fluctuates (regardless of his mindset) because of his inexperience & that is just pure indisputable fact.
    Unfortunately, that's not what the manga says. Maybe that has something to do with it, but the two reasons that the manga has given for Ichigo's fluctuating/lower-than-it-should-be reiatsu are (1) his struggle with his inner hollow, and (2) his Substitute Shinigami Badge that was secretly a reiatsu-limiting device. The "resolve" thing you're talking about is the issue that Ichigo's inner hollow was talking about, regarding who is the king, and who is the horse. Once he resolved things with his inner hollow + Zangetsu, post-Dangai, his reiatsu wasn't fluctuating anymore.

    Since then, we haven't seen it fluctuate. The Quincy can manipulate and enslave reishi, so that would explain why a super-strong Quincy like Haschwald could cut Ichigo's sword. Of course, it may have something to do with Ichigo's resolve, but it didn't look to me like he was lacking resolve. In fact, he looked pretty resolved toward fighting Bach! That's my interpretation of it, anyway.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Let me put it simple for you to understand, Ichigo was capable of one-shotting a capable captain like Byakuya in his bankai irrespective of what Byakuya does UNTIL his reiatsu made him so slow that even Byakuya was capable of almost doing the samething to Ichigo (Ichigo lacked the experience & control to effectively use his powers & this is fact. Ulq made mention of how Ichigo's power fluctuates). Hell Kubo gave Ichigo, phantom speed that very chapter but his speed was anything but phantom like considering how it was made useless against his opponents after (again he couldn't control his powers effective which was something Byakuya mentioned to). He was a newbie.

    Also the "stronger hurts the weaker" was something picked up from the manga http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...05-page-7.html
    Fact of the matter is, even though Ichigo lacked the resolve against transcended Aizen, before that moment, (when Yama gave him the opening), he unleashed his full might (full power GT) & even Aizen thought it was pitiful (hell Zangetsu said the samething when Ichigo was in the dangai world).

    So again, Ichigo's power fluctuates (regardless of his mindset) because of his inexperience & that is just pure indisputable fact.
    1- Lemme put it again for you : In case where the level of the fighter is close, reiatsu control and mastery over skills prime, in the case where there's a huge gap between the fighter's reiatsu, mastery and such doesn't matter (See Ichigo FGT vs Godizen, and then see Ichigo vs Byakuya)

    2- He unleashed his full might and did injure Aizen, it is until Aizen shaked him up (when he said that all his fights have happened because of him and told him the truth), hence why Ichigo attacked him and Aizen was disappointed because he said " You could do better ", heck what Zangetsu said is that because of Ichigo's unconscious fear, he stopped moving forward and couldn't do a Hollowification anymore, hence why Zangetsu said that he'll get rid of Ichigo's " despair ". So don't go twist events to prove your point

    3- So again, Ichigo's power fluctuates because of his MINDSET, not because of inexperience and such, the only case when it was because of inexperience was vs Byakuya, and that's because he used a Bankai that he mastered just recently and it was the first time he used it against an experienced user of Bankai

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    1) When Ichigo learned FGT, he mastered full control so you actually didn't make a point there.

    2) He unleashed his full might & Aizen was disappionted that it was all he could do (Toshito doesn't have to try to kill Aizen full crying out loud).

    3) I've already considered the fact that Ichigo's mindset influences his powers but like Byakuya said, he is a newbie shinigami who lacks experience to control his power (i.e to master bankai one needs atleast 10 years to do so). So again you really didn't make a point there.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    1) When Ichigo learned FGT, he mastered full control so you actually didn't make a point there.

    2) He unleashed his full might & Aizen was disappionted that it was all he could do (Toshito doesn't have to try to kill Aizen full crying out loud).

    3) I've already considered the fact that Ichigo's mindset influences his powers but like Byakuya said, he is a newbie shinigami who lacks experience to control his power (i.e to master bankai one needs atleast 10 years to do so). So again you really didn't make a point there.
    1- For fuck's sake read what I say : When there's a huge difference in reiatsu, things as mastery of skills and stuff doesn't matter, do you get it ? Ichigo FGT's reiatsu was so big, that even Aizen couldn't feel it, in the same fashion Urahara/Isshin/Yoruichi were unable to feel Cocoon Aizen's reiatsu, and all of these fighters have an extreme mastery over their powers. Mastery only matters when the fighters are roughly around the same level (roughly = not necessarily equal)

    2- Go read the manga please and get your facts straight : Here Aizen compliments Ichigo after say that he has developped well (right after he took his GT), Here Aizen is disappointed by Ichigo after Aizen told him that all his victories weren't a result of his own efforts which shaked Ichigo

    3- Refer to point 1 again... It's you who doesn't make a point

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    All of his opponents probably had Shunpo, Kido, defense control, weapons. The ones who lost against him, did those things help them? No, apparently not so much.
    Because none of them used those skills by the time Kenpachi cut them down. The biggest flaw without your logic here is that you claim Kenpachi wouldn't have a problem with long ranged opponents because he has killed them before, but where were the long range attacks from Tousen or any of those 3 SR? A person could have every power in the universe and it would be meaningless if it was never given a practical use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    He had a hard time, yeah. He's not Aizen who defeated everyone on a whim. But he won eventually, against those opponents, which alone proves his value. Kido, Shunpo and other bullshit obviously isn't that necessary for him to win. Can you comprehend that?
    He won when they got close enough for him to reach them. I can't see Kenpachi alive right now if Tousen had decided to use Kido instead of trying to stab him, or if he had beheaded him from the get go. So they do matter when they are used, but most of his opponents never used any power that put Kenpachi at a disadvantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    But in many cases it does. In this situation, for instance, we definitely need facts, which we don't have. But apparently, you make your own facts, thus making this debate infinite. Yeah, his brute force proved to be a valuable asset and he's known for it. Any other thing that he acquires as of now will simply make him even stronger than he already is.
    That Kenpachi has no skill is a fact.
    How he wants to enjoy a fight rather than being productive is also a fact.
    His lack of long range capabilities is also a fact.
    And so on. I have everything to back my claims, which don't require much. "Kenpachi is not that strong, he lacks skill and Shunsui wants him to be trained to be more productive in this war". I don't see why this is so hard to understand.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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