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Thread: Ranking of Captains

  1. #766
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    It would have been much less complicated had Kubo made Ichigo occupied by Gin instead of just watching the captains fight -.-

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Well, it is not unheard off that aizen can simply shunpo faster than what captain shinigami can see. He did it against hitsugaya and had a remarkably easy time with bankai and masked ichigo (at the time bankai ichigo seemed to have normal captain level speed considering he was on equal ground with sealed ulquiorra and gin's speed). As things are I could completely buy aizen actually pulling the switcheroo while hitsugaya was in the middle of his attack.

    While there it plausible that the captains were hitting air by the time aizen was supposedly caught in the illusion, how does this explain the soifon bit? Can aizen actually create the illusion of crushing reiatsu on his targets? If that is the case then he never even had a need to fight or create wonderweiss for that matter, he just needed to create the illusion of crushing reiatsu and crush everyone including yamamoto with it. If what we saw is to make sense then wouldn't it make more sense that aizen's illusions are somehow limited? I mean, not just for reiatsu but also for other illusions aizen could create.... Why did he bother with wonderweiss if he could just create the illusion of a tidal wave and drown everyone? Or create the illusion that everyone was breathing mercury? Why would there even be a need to create the illusion of crushing soifon's technique with reiatsu for that matter? If he was aiming to create a distraction then he would have been better off making everyone think he was dead because of soifon.... Dunno, to me it makes more sense that at least up to soifon's shikai the one there was in fact aizen.

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  5. #768
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    The other captains were risking their lives so that Ichigo could get an opening. If he jumped to save Hinamori he risked getting killed and the whole plan would go to hell. And it would be extremely rude to not repay a favor. It wasn't until the beginning of the next chapter that the VC saw Hinamori stand up and Ichigo noticing something was happening, and to somebody that is not under KS it would appear that the captains suddenly went crazy.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  6. #769
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, it is not unheard off that aizen can simply shunpo faster than what captain shinigami can see. He did it against hitsugaya and had a remarkably easy time with bankai and masked ichigo (at the time bankai ichigo seemed to have normal captain level speed considering he was on equal ground with sealed ulquiorra and gin's speed). As things are I could completely buy aizen actually pulling the switcheroo while hitsugaya was in the middle of his attack.

    While there it plausible that the captains were hitting air by the time aizen was supposedly caught in the illusion, how does this explain the soifon bit? Can aizen actually create the illusion of crushing reiatsu on his targets? If that is the case then he never even had a need to fight or create wonderweiss for that matter, he just needed to create the illusion of crushing reiatsu and crush everyone including yamamoto with it. If what we saw is to make sense then wouldn't it make more sense that aizen's illusions are somehow limited? I mean, not just for reiatsu but also for other illusions aizen could create.... Why did he bother with wonderweiss if he could just create the illusion of a tidal wave and drown everyone? Or create the illusion that everyone was breathing mercury? Why would there even be a need to create the illusion of crushing soifon's technique with reiatsu for that matter? If he was aiming to create a distraction then he would have been better off making everyone think he was dead because of soifon.... Dunno, to me it makes more sense that at least up to soifon's shikai the one there was in fact aizen.
    I wasn't trying to suggest he used an illusion to create that effect. I was just implying that he might have lied to Soifon about canceling the attack with his reiatsu alone and actually Homonka didn't appear because Soifon attacked an illusion. I'm not refuting what Aizen said there, but there is a chance that he explained all those things while standing aside and watching Soifon battling on her own.
    We don't know how Aizen's illusions are created. Say, could he possibly create a Homonka on his chest and vanish like he actually died? If these were within what he was capable of, that would be sensible, but maybe his reiatsu would still give away the hints of his existence. Aizen wasn't beyond a Shinigami's level at that time, after all.

    In a way, all of my points are purely speculation. There is nothing to prove these suggestions out there.

  7. #770
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Well, in order to be captivating, I guess the illusion has to be plausible. He had to provide a reason for Sui Feng's Homonka not working. Or maybe he didn't, but it all goes towards making the illusion more realistic. I suppose he could have simply pretended the Homonka worked and attacked when the Captains had let their guard down, but for whatever reason he decided to have Hitsugaya stab Hinamori instead. Probably because Aizen's just a dick.

    Edit - Actually I suppose pretending Homonka didn't kill him was to draw the other Captains into the fray. Seeing that it didn't work, Shunsui took a stab, then Hitsugaya had his turn. I guess it meant all the Captains were lined up nicely when Aizen did this to them:

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-...apter-392.html

    As for why Ichigo didn't step in... the whole thing transpired in a span of seconds. He might just not have understood what was going on until too late. Also, Hitsugaya did try ensnaring Aizen in a giant sheet of ice, which might have just obscured Ichigo's sight. Plus, Ichigo wasn't under hypnosis, but everyone else was. Aizen could easily have made them see Ichigo standing silently, when in reality he was yelling at them the whole time.
    Last edited by NoOneInParticular; December 15, 2012 at 01:48 PM.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    About the Aizen stuff:

    Sure, there may have been times the captains were just fighting air, but based on what Gin and Aizen were saying, I think Aizen was also proving a point: that his raw power was far beyond theirs. And yes, Aizen did make it so Ichigo's words didn't reach the captains. Remember at the end, Ichigo had been shouting at them for at least a little while, and likely longer. He hadn't stepped in because the captains explicitly told him to stay out of it.

    Regardless, if Soifon only attacked air, and Aizen was lying about how Shinigami battles boil down to a question of reiatsu, then it really wouldn't make much sense, and you'd have to come up with your own ideas to try and make sense of it. So instead of doing that, I'm going to assume what's shown so far in the manga is correct, and base my ranking on that only. Not on who I think might be under/over-rated due to my own ideas.

    Then again, this is all opinion anyway, I'm just very resistant if it seems like people are putting their own ideas ahead of manga events/dialogue, and treating their ideas as manga fact. I have no problem with reading ideas though, they can be interesting.

  9. #772
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I wasn't trying to suggest he used an illusion to create that effect. I was just implying that he might have lied to Soifon about canceling the attack with his reiatsu alone and actually Homonka didn't appear because Soifon attacked an illusion. I'm not refuting what Aizen said there, but there is a chance that he explained all those things while standing aside and watching Soifon battling on her own.
    We don't know how Aizen's illusions are created. Say, could he possibly create a Homonka on his chest and vanish like he actually died? If these were within what he was capable of, that would be sensible, but maybe his reiatsu would still give away the hints of his existence. Aizen wasn't beyond a Shinigami's level at that time, after all.

    In a way, all of my points are purely speculation. There is nothing to prove these suggestions out there.
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-46757-...apter-391.html

    Well, the page actually shows the reiatsu effect so even in a extreme scenario he should have at least caused an illusion of reiatsu if he didn't actually suppress the technique. More so, wouldn't soifon have felt aizen stopping or not stopping her technique with reiatsu? Illusion or not the reiatsu must have been felt by soifon if it was at such close range and it was used in a way which would make aizen's words believable.

  10. #773
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    KS only affect the 5 senses, not the ability to sense reiatsu. At such close distance, a captain level char like soi fon wouldn't mistake real reiatsu from illusions.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    KS only affect the 5 senses, not the ability to sense reiatsu. At such close distance, a captain level char like soi fon wouldn't mistake real reiatsu from illusions.
    wasn't Aizen able to deceive whole Soul Society with an illusion for a long time? i think KS is able to alter every sense one can have.
    Naruto Forever


  12. #775
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member cracker's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Dead bodies don't emit spirit pressure... They saw a corpse that looked like Aizen they had no reason to doubt. There was an anomaly though which Retsu... No I mean Yachiru picked up... She never said exactly what but it was enough to warrant an investigation.

  13. #776
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    KS only affect the 5 senses, not the ability to sense reiatsu. At such close distance, a captain level char like soi fon wouldn't mistake real reiatsu from illusions.
    At such a close distance? Yamamoto went so far as to have Aizen stab him with his zanpaktou to make sure. If Yamamoto wants to be that certain (stab stomach close - so he can feel the riatzu from Aizen's blade) then I think it is entirely possible that she was not 'close enough'.
    Infinite RAGE!

  14. #777
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    At such a close distance? Yamamoto went so far as to have Aizen stab him with his zanpaktou to make sure. If Yamamoto wants to be that certain (stab stomach close - so he can feel the riatzu from Aizen's blade) then I think it is entirely possible that she was not 'close enough'.
    Yama wanted to use a suicide technique that will annihilate everybody, so it's reasonable to have him stab him to be absolutely 100% certain, also to catch his hand and delay him from escaping from the radius of destruction. Soi fon case's was not that extreme. Even someone that sucks at reiatsu controlling like Kenpachi can sense Tousen and Komamura reiatsu when they were hiding. Moreover, Aizen had to emit reiatsu in order to suppress Soifon's zanpaktou. So yeah, she can't be mistaken about a huge amount of reiatsu emitting right in front of her.
    Last edited by River_Capulet; December 16, 2012 at 03:00 AM.

  15. #778
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    KS only affect the 5 senses, not the ability to sense reiatsu. At such close distance, a captain level char like soi fon wouldn't mistake real reiatsu from illusions.
    If one can read reiatsu from close distance, why wasn't Hitsugaya aware that he pierced through Hinamori? There is a massive difference between a severely injured vice-captain's reiatsu and Aizen's, isn't it?
    Even Captain-Commander said he wouldn't be sure if he used his sense of touch to spot Aizen and needed the Zanpakuto's reiatsu instead. So, close distance or not, reading the reiatsu isn't an effective counter-measure against KS.

    ---------- Post added at 02:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-46757-...apter-391.html

    Well, the page actually shows the reiatsu effect so even in a extreme scenario he should have at least caused an illusion of reiatsu if he didn't actually suppress the technique. More so, wouldn't soifon have felt aizen stopping or not stopping her technique with reiatsu? Illusion or not the reiatsu must have been felt by soifon if it was at such close range and it was used in a way which would make aizen's words believable.
    Yes, it looks like that was really the case.
    Though, Soifon might have missed the reiatsu countering whole together. She looked like she really didn't have an idea her technique or perhaps, any other technique could be repelled through pure reiatsu, but that's another issue.

  16. #779
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    If one can read reiatsu from close distance, why wasn't Hitsugaya aware that he pierced through Hinamori? There is a massive difference between a severely injured vice-captain's reiatsu and Aizen's, isn't it?
    Even Captain-Commander said he wouldn't be sure if he used his sense of touch to spot Aizen and needed the Zanpakuto's reiatsu instead. So, close distance or not, reading the reiatsu isn't an effective counter-measure against KS.

    ---------- Post added at 02:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 AM ----------



    Yes, it looks like that was really the case.
    Though, Soifon might have missed the reiatsu countering whole together. She looked like she really didn't have an idea her technique or perhaps, any other technique could be repelled through pure reiatsu, but that's another issue.
    Hinamori was half dead, her reiatsu should be low so it can explain why Hitsu didn't notice it. But in SOi foin case, Aizen had to emit reiatsu to suppress her attack.

  17. #780
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    The counter for KS was already given : Touching the blade, or unless you're some kind of Yamamoto and use the same trick he used. Reiatsu sensing and stuff, all that crap is useless

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