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Thread: Ranking of Captains

  1. #931
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Using only katana instead of katana+wakizashi is not underhanded method, it's going easy on somebody. How is using one sword instead of two is UNDERHANDED method?
    First of all, you missed the part that I CLEARLY POINTED OUT where Shunsui was actually using both swords and still inferior to Starrk. And second, you missed the most important part of my claim where I said that Shunsui was switching his sword between hands to catch Starrk by surprise, and Starrk was not only dodging those attacks but could also read them perfectly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Wow, he dodged attack from 1 sword from double swords style swordsman.
    He was later fighting against Shunsui who was using two swords, but the point is clearly that he didn't have trouble against him, and in fact was superior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    I wonder if you ever trained any martial art that requires using katana/bokken/shinai/nodachi/tachi/wakizashi. For training, of course. I can't imagine attacking anyone with nodachi. xD You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
    No, it's you who's making things up. Stop changing my arguments into something that suits you, there's a fallacy named after that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And do I have to remind you, that Shunsui isn't even in Shikai at that moment? Or that he uses one out of two swords, right now? Actually, wakizashi comes really handy in combat. You have no idea how much.
    Again, Shunsui was actually using both of his swords a chapter later, and Starrk didn't have any trouble overpowering him, and what does it matter if Shunsui isn't in Shikai? His Zanpakutous aren't made for fighting, all they do physically is change form, but their ability is used to set game rules and not for direct combat. Even in Shikai Starrk would still be superior as long as the games didn't start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And did you notice, that he STILL isn't even in Shikai...? xD
    And what does it matter? Shunsui's Shikai is just swords as long as their games are not active. But as seen before, his smoke used for distraction didn't actually take Starrk's focus away, his shadow game wasn't useful once Starrk knew how it worked, his height game was pointless if he could move out of the way and his color game wasn't very useful because Starrk figured it out instantly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Oh, so Shunsui is weaker because of his personality!
    STOP USING STRAWMAN ARGUMENTS, BECAUSE IT MAKES ME WANT TO SLIT YOUR THROAT DON'T YOU EVER PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    I wonder if later in this post you'll show how he threw his haori just to attack him from below. Look at Shunsui's zanpakuto. Games, trickery. He uses double
    I don't think I can keep this up when you clearly can't keep a proper argument. Shunsui's personality is to the point and no games no pun intended, and that's what actually makes him such a dangerous fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Yes, using your ability is totally hax and wrong! UKITAKE, YOU BASTARD!
    Pray to your god that I don't meet you in person. You are seriously pissing me off. Ukitake is using his ability, which distorts and redirects an attack to his advantage. It's a dirty move akin to throwing a water balloon soaked in soapy water and described as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Shunsui, YOU TOO? YOU FREAKIN' BASTARD. HOW DARE YOU USE TWO OF YOUR ZANPAKUTO TECHNIQUES? How dare you use Takaoni? You deserve big scolding from Yamaji! Oh, wait.
    20 years in prison are starting to feel worth it. His abilities are used to cheat, even if they can actually be considered tactics. He even acknowledged it but said that there's no point following rules in a battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    You sir, are a complete idiot. Well, I guess your nationality speaks for itself.
    And you are worthless scum, first ignoring my argument and changing everything I said, and then resorting to insults to change the topic and insult a whole nation. There's another fallacy named after that, you imbecile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    But Stark isn't sneaky bastard for using his ability, unlimited, infinite Cero? I forgot.
    Once again with your strawman bullshit. Starrk made it clear that his ability was to shoot Cero's as much as he liked with no delay, while Shunsui always came attacking from behind with abilities and no explanation just to get a cheap hit. Ability or not THAT IS CHEATING.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Stark could shoot all the ceros he wanted to, but Shunsui had to beat him with one sword, without Shikai, not using his abilities, and attacking those unlimited Ceros head on!
    Shunsui clearly used his abilities and Shikai and two swords but were clearly no match for Starrk's intelligence or speed or skill or raw power. His games lost to his infinite ceros. Even in Bankai he wouldn't be saved from his wolves or Ceros because it would most likely be based on games too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    I almost forgot, that using your strongest ability (based on his feats, Kageoni) is a cheat move. Burn in hell, Shunsui!
    No, POPPING OUT OF NOWHERE TO STAB FROM BEHIND IS CHEATING, ABILITIES OR POWERS ARE IRRELEVANT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    I don't know if you remember, but Stark didn't get a proper hit on Shunsui before attacking him while he was trying to save Ukitake from WW.
    Because he wasn't fighting seriously. Even then, he did cut Shunsui who was using two swords, and he could have shot him earlier but talked to him instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Oh, I forgot. Attacking from the back when the other guy is trying to save his best friend IS NOT cheap/cheat/underhanded.
    No, because unlike Shunsui who uses distractions or attacks from behind to strike instantly, Starrk stopped for a moment, shot ONCE and apologized after that. He could have shot him a thousand times or used his wolves to blow him into a million pieces but just aimed to take him out of the fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    What will you say? Why would Stark care? And why would Kyoraku care about Stark and his talking or about his fight with Vaizards?
    Oh wow, and now you try to turn the argument unto yourself as a defense, right? So now I can't use the obvious explanation or else you will laugh at it, right? Unbelievable. Starrk obviously didn't care and Shunsui obviously waited until Starrk got to the ground and his guns/wolves were gone to attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Yes, using your ability to the fullest IS cheating. By taking off haori, he was COMPLETELY covered in black. It gave his attack great boost.
    And it was also used as a distraction. THAT IS CHEATING. Starrk was fighting legit and Shunsui wasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Also, reread manga. Even if Stark blocked, it'd be over.
    It wouldn't be over because his Hollow hole wouldn't be cut.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And did Stark face Bankai Kyoraku? Oh, wait, he didn't. Did he fight with Kyoraku+Ukitake? Oh, wait, Ukitake got trashed by WW. It was Stark who was lucky, that Shunsui didn't go bankai.
    Oh wow, and what is Shunsui going to do against a pack of immortal exploding wolves? Tell me, I'll be waiting. Shunsui got lucky he didn't get blown into subatomic territory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Any proof, that Vaizards are stronger than Kyoraku and Ukitake? ANY? And your mentality is "Mask and Shinigami= stronger". I didn't see Yamaji wearing a Hollow mask, and did you? Oh, so that small mask doesn't make you stronger than everyone?
    Way to base your entire argument on fallacies, you idiot. SEE BELOW. And no, Yamamoto didn't use a mask and he's in an entire different category, but with a mask he would have become even stronger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...8-page-16.html

    Well, Love treats Shunsui as someone stronger than him.
    And how did he treat him as strong? It was a compliment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    They got lectured by Shunsui and didn't mind that. Shunsui considers himself their superior (well, he always was, since TBTP arc), and they consider him superior. They were both Captains, so Love let himself to make comment on his lawlessness, but it doesn't change their attitude towards Kyoraku.
    And when did they acknowledge that? He simply called him out for his lack of style and Shunsui told him to leave style outside of a fight. And superior? He's a captain like them.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  2. #932
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    First of all, what actually suggests that Ukitake and Shunsui are stronger? You seem to be awfully confident about it. Really, I want you to give your proof, because I'll give mine.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...66-page-7.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...16-page-3.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...16-page-4.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...16-page-7.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...6-page-10.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...6-page-11.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...8-page-12.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-13.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-14.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...20-page-1.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...20-page-2.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...20-page-3.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...22-page-1.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...22-page-5.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...25-page-7.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...25-page-8.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...24-page-6.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...24-page-7.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...24-page-8.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...24-page-9.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-12.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-13.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-15.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...4-page-19.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...77-page-7.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...77-page-8.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...79-page-7.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...79-page-8.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...79-page-9.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-10.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-15.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-16.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-17.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...80-page-9.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...0-page-17.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-10.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-11.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-20.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...2-page-11.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...85-page-8.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...85-page-9.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-10.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-15.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-16.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-17.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...86-page-7.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...6-page-13.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...6-page-15.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...6-page-16.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-10.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-12.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-13.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-16.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-18.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-19.html

    The Vaizados have always been portrayed as brutally strong, and more so if they have their masks on. So your claim that "The manga seems to suggest something very different." is pure made up bullcrap.
    You've established that the Vaizards and Ichigo hang out sometimes. That was pretty useless. I don't see how any of that is even close to showing that the Vaizards are more powerful than Shunsui. Are you just one of those people that think posting large numbers of links is effective, even if the links aren't particularly relvant. If so, allow me to sure you that they are not convincing. The manga hasn't presented anything that would suggest the Vaizards are more powerful than Shunsui.

    Oh, and by the way...this:

    Quote Quote:
    STOP USING STRAWMAN ARGUMENTS, BECAUSE IT MAKES ME WANT TO SLIT YOUR THROAT DON'T YOU EVER PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH
    Not necessary. Sometimes arguments get heated, and conversations get somewhat intense, but everyone here should be capable of controlling themselves. Find a way to disagree without the use of such juvenile, threatening language.
    Last edited by Impossibility; December 27, 2012 at 02:40 PM.

  3. #933
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Agree or disagree with other members, please don't insult each other. Further rude remarks will be treated accordingly.

  4. Thanks 2 Member(s) thanked this post
  5. #934
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    You just showed us pictures of Vaizards and Hichigo. THANK YOU, I NEVER SAW IT BEFORE!
    No, I showed pages where they are clearly strong, massively strong, in fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Still, was Yamaji weaker than them? He didn't have a mask. Does Juha have a hollow mask?
    I can't even begin to understand your process of thought. I was talking about Shunsui and Ukitake and other normal captains. Neither Yamamoto, Aizen or Bach are normal. STOP USING FALLACIES FOR ONCE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    So that small mask isn't deciding factor. Showing me some Vaizards won't make me believe, that they're stronger than him. Don't make bigger fool from yourself.
    You are making a fool of yourself by twisting my argument to your convenience. A Vaizard can easily overpower a captain and do things nobody is able to do, like pushing Starrk and WonderWeiss around with ease, which is no small feat. What makes you think Shunsui and Ukitake are above normal captains in the first place? Seriously? More skilled? Or more agile? Quicker? More intelligent? Physically stronger? With a higher reiatsu? Level headed? Quick minded? Unlike the Vaizados which have been represented as strong time and time again, Shunsui and Ukitake have never been shown to be any special that separates them from other captains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Is there anything that suggests, that Vaizards are stronger than Shunsui and Ukitake? No, there isn't.
    Yes, there is. Don't blatantly ignore those pages I gave you. How can Rose and Love push Starrk around and survive parts of STARR'S SOUL exploding at point blank multiple times while Shunsui can barely take a normal Cero? Or how can Rose be causing so much destruction and use so much power with his physical strength alone? Shunsui never did that, and what's more, his Zanpakutous are just swords with abilities. And then there's that part where a masked Vaizado can overpower a captain, or how they can fight a Hollowfied Ichigo (very strong) for a while, or fight WonderWeiss, who not only was faster than Shunsui and Ukitake, but also strong enough to fight Yamamoto for a while. Can Shunsui even split a Menos in half with his bare hands? You are severely underestimating the power of a mask.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    About Shunsui's strength I can say, that he had pretty much upper hand against SR, that had to use special ability- Grimaniel to escape his attack, while he was still in Shikai. And because of his carefreeness, he got shot in eye.
    He didn't have an upper hand. That SR got close to shoot Shunsui point blank but missed, and got kicked back. It was a very risky move in the first place. Shunsui wasn't carefree, Vollstandig is just too powerful for a normal Shinigami to handle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Then he cut him pretty deeply, SR's blood was all over the place.
    I don't see what part of this makes him stronger than the Vaizados. The cut happened off panel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And Ukitake+Kyoraku could fight equally with Yamamoto without being injured.
    All three were injured as seen from the chapter where Hisana warned everybody about Aizen. And what about that fight makes them stronger? If Yamamoto has to be constantly aware of Shunsui's games and Ukitake can return his fire, then of course he's going to have trouble. That doesn't make them stronger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Any proof, that any of Vaizards would do better than them? Any proof, that Shunsui is weaker than them? Maybe Shinji would have a chance against him.
    No, I've already given mine. YOU give me proof that either Shunsui or Ukitake are actually stronger in any aspect, be it reiatsu or just physical strength or anything else.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  6. #935
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    First of all, you missed the part that I CLEARLY POINTED OUT where Shunsui was actually using both swords and still inferior to Starrk. And second, you missed the most important part of my claim where I said that Shunsui was switching his sword between hands to catch Starrk by surprise, and Starrk was not only dodging those attacks but could also read them perfectly.
    Not at that point of your post.

    And... wait a minute. You're more stupid than I originally thought! xD Switching hands is used to SURPRISE Stark? Go learn some martial art, aido, kendo, whatever, just learn how to properly use sword and maybe then you'll realize why he was switching hands.



    Quote Quote:
    He was later fighting against Shunsui who was using two swords, but the point is clearly that he didn't have trouble against him, and in fact was superior.
    Any proof, that he was SUPERIOR? He wasn't inferior, that's for sure.



    Quote Quote:
    No, it's you who's making things up. Stop changing my arguments into something that suits you, there's a fallacy named after that.
    You are just proving to me, how stupid you actually are... ;d



    Quote Quote:
    Again, Shunsui was actually using both of his swords a chapter later, and Starrk didn't have any trouble overpowering him, and what does it matter if Shunsui isn't in Shikai? His Zanpakutous aren't made for fighting, all they do physically is change form, but their ability is used to set game rules and not for direct combat. Even in Shikai Starrk would still be superior as long as the games didn't start.
    Still, I don't see his superiority. He cut his hat, but he didn't cut his face. Shunsui dodged, his hat didn't. xD



    Quote Quote:
    his shadow game wasn't useful once Starrk knew how it worked, his height game was pointless if he could move out of the way and his color game wasn't very useful because Starrk figured it out instantly.
    Color game wasn't very useful, but Stark died by playing it. xD


    Quote Quote:
    STOP USING STRAWMAN ARGUMENTS, BECAUSE IT MAKES ME WANT TO SLIT YOUR THROAT DON'T YOU EVER PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH
    Calm down, kiddo. Using every means possible to win is Shunsui's personality.



    Quote Quote:
    I don't think I can keep this up when you clearly can't keep a proper argument.
    Neither do I.


    Quote Quote:
    Pray to your god that I don't meet you in person. You are seriously pissing me off. Ukitake is using his ability, which distorts and redirects an attack to his advantage. It's a dirty move akin to throwing a water balloon soaked in soapy water and described as such.
    I'm an atheist. And trust me, I'd gladly meet you in person. I'll take my bokken with me and show you something cool!

    About Ukitake, it's his ability. Shooting infinite Cero isn't hax? Shooting 1000 Ceros isn't hax?

    Quote Quote:
    20 years in prison are starting to feel worth it. His abilities are used to cheat, even if they can actually be considered tactics. He even acknowledged it but said that there's no point following rules in a battle.
    Yup, that's what I call personality. You call it dirty, I call it tactics.


    Quote Quote:
    And you are worthless scum, first ignoring my argument and changing everything I said, and then resorting to insults to change the topic and insult a whole nation.
    So far, you didn't do anything that would prove me wrong. >.<

    Quote Quote:
    Once again with your strawman bullshit. Starrk made it clear that his ability was to shoot Cero's as much as he liked with no delay, while Shunsui always came attacking from behind with abilities and no explanation just to get a cheap hit. Ability or not THAT IS CHEATING.
    Ok, ability is cheating. And you're an idiot. Makes perfect sense to me.

    Quote Quote:
    Shunsui clearly used his abilities and Shikai and two swords but were clearly no match for Starrk's intelligence or speed or skill or raw power. His games lost to his infinite ceros. Even in Bankai he wouldn't be saved from his wolves or Ceros because it would most likely be based on games too.
    I don't care about your assumptions and "most likely". Fact is, Shunsui would be much stronger.



    Quote Quote:
    No, POPPING OUT OF NOWHERE TO STAB FROM BEHIND IS CHEATING, ABILITIES OR POWERS ARE IRRELEVANT.
    But the very ability is to pop out from nowhere, isn't it?


    Quote Quote:
    Because he wasn't fighting seriously. Even then, he did cut Shunsui who was using two swords, and he could have shot him earlier but talked to him instead.
    I'm to lazy to look it up. Where did he CUT SHUNSUI?


    Quote Quote:
    Oh wow, and now you try to turn the argument unto yourself as a defense, right? So now I can't use the obvious explanation or else you will laugh at it, right?
    No, not really. It's just that you're an idiot, and only idiot would would respond what I wrote. I wanted you to write something else, what you did. The whole psychological shit above is baseless and stupid. Get some degree, before you write something like that to someone, who currently is studying psychology, ok?



    Quote Quote:
    And it was also used as a distraction. THAT IS CHEATING. Starrk was fighting legit and Shunsui wasn't.
    Still, I call it tactics and personality. Shunsui thinks that honour is not revelant in a fight, that have to be won by any cost.

    Quote Quote:
    It wouldn't be over because his Hollow hole wouldn't be cut.
    Reread manga, please. Pretty please?


    Quote Quote:
    Oh wow, and what is Shunsui going to do against a pack of immortal exploding wolves? Tell me, I'll be waiting. Shunsui got lucky he didn't get blown into subatomic territory.
    You're seriously overrating them. Get close to Stark, so the wolves will injure Stark as well? Use Bankai, that'd make him a little bit stronger? Use Irooni...?

    Quote Quote:
    And no, Yamamoto didn't use a mask and he's in an entire different category, but with a mask he would have become even stronger.
    So you agree, that having a mask DOESN'T make you stronger than people without it, right?

    Quote Quote:
    And how did he treat him as strong? It was a compliment.
    You don't congratulate someone and use "sir", if you're superior to him.

    Quote Quote:
    And when did they acknowledge that? He simply called him out for his lack of style and Shunsui told him to leave style outside of a fight. And superior? He's a captain like them.
    Ever heard of senior-captain? Kyoraku refers to Unohana as senpai. They're both captains, but that doesn't matter. He made a comment, Shunsui responded how CAPTAIN should behave. He is a captain himself, but he considers himself someone who can teach other captains how to behave. Well, I call it "considering himself superior".

  7. #936
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    You've established that the Vaizards and Ichigo hang out sometimes. That was pretty useless. I don't see how any of that is even close to showing that the Vaizards are more powerful than Shunsui.
    Not even close? Can Shunsui do this with strength alone?

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-10.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-15.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-17.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-16.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Are you just one of those people that think posting large numbers of links is effective, even if the links aren't particularly relvant.
    Oh boy, I sure love strawman arguments and evasive responses. Those links prove how freaking strong the Vaizados are, on a level neither Shunsui or Ukitake have ever displayed. Meanwhile, you have failed to prove your claim that Shunsui is stronger than other captains, and you will remain unsuccessful because the only thing that Shunsui and Ukitake have going on is that they were praised by Yamamoto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    If so, allow me to sure you that they are not convincing. The manga hasn't presented anything that would suggest the Vaizards are more powerful than Shunsui.
    You didn't even open 5 of those links, didn't you? Not convincing? While Shunsui was busy just fighting Starrk and not doing much Rose was throwing him around like a ragdoll and causing a lot of damage, and while Ukitake couldn't keep with WonderWeiss and got stabbed Mashiro and Kensei were fighting with him head on. And other Vaizados can overpower captains with ease, and their reiatsu increases a lot with their masks on and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Not necessary. Sometimes arguments get heated, and conversations get somewhat intense, but everyone here should be capable of controlling themselves. Find a way to disagree without the use of such juvenile, threatening language.
    And what do you call constant use of fallacies to justify calling me an idiot then? Why don't you comment anything about that?
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  8. #937
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Not even close? Can Shunsui do this with strength alone?
    Yes, because Shunsui's strength lies in destructive force. You're just sooo stupid, that I can stop laughing while reading your posts. xD

  9. #938
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Oh boy, I sure love strawman arguments and evasive responses. Those links prove how freaking strong the Vaizados are, on a level neither Shunsui or Ukitake have ever displayed. Meanwhile, you have failed to prove your claim that Shunsui is stronger than other captains, and you will remain unsuccessful because the only thing that Shunsui and Ukitake have going on is that they were praised by Yamamoto.
    The only thing that proves Kyouraku was stronger than the other captains is he became the Captain-Commander and not anyone else.
    Also, those "freaking strong" Vaizards were given a good beating by Starkk later on.

    Shinji is probably the only one that is even close to Kyouraku in terms of power through his abilities, and he is the unspoken leader of the Vaizards. The others possibly can't hope to be on par with him.

    ---------- Post added at 02:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 PM ----------

    And for the sake of the entire discussion, abide by the rules and discuss properly.
    When you say something like "You're such an idiot, you're so stupid", it will only result in that post to be deleted, not win you a debate over the others.
    Last edited by Hakuteiken; December 27, 2012 at 03:25 PM.

  10. #939
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Not at that point of your post.

    And... wait a minute. You're more stupid than I originally thought! xD
    I sure do love arguing with idiots who can't even get into debates and use a lot of fallacies and evasive responses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Switching hands is used to SURPRISE Stark? Go learn some martial art, aido, kendo, whatever, just learn how to properly use sword and maybe then you'll realize why he was switching hands.
    He was switching hands and trying to use equal force with both to catch Starrk off guard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Any proof, that he was SUPERIOR? He wasn't inferior, that's for sure.
    I HAVE GIVEN PROOF TO YOU, DON'T IGNORE IT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    You are just proving to me, how stupid you actually are... ;d
    It's incredibly ironic that you call me stupid for calling you out on your constant and blatant use of fallacies, because you just used a fallacy again. Learn how to properly argue and then you can come back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Still, I don't see his superiority. He cut his hat, but he didn't cut his face. Shunsui dodged, his hat didn't. xD
    Then what is that drop of blood in Shunsui's forehead? Hats don't bleed. And he was using two swords and got cut nonetheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Color game wasn't very useful, but Stark died by playing it. xD
    Completely ignoring the argument, and also ignoring what happened in the manga.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Calm down, kiddo. Using every means possible to win is Shunsui's personality.
    And I don't see how this justifies you constantly putting words in my mouth or why even contradict what I never denied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Neither do I.
    You have transcended hypocrisy and arrogance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    I'm an atheist. And trust me, I'd gladly meet you in person. I'll take my bokken with me and show you something cool!
    Once again evading the fact that you keep using fallacies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    About Ukitake, it's his ability. Shooting infinite Cero isn't hax? Shooting 1000 Ceros isn't hax?
    Shooting 1000 Ceros that are just normal and easy to evade is not hax. Using an ability that purposefully distorts an incoming attack to catch the attacker off guard is cheating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Yup, that's what I call personality. You call it dirty, I call it tactics.
    I never said they were not tactics, I said they were dirty tactics and Shunsui used them to cheat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    So far, you didn't do anything that would prove me wrong. >.<
    Once again you ignore my argument and dare to call me out for not providing proof even though I have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Ok, ability is cheating. And you're an idiot. Makes perfect sense to me.
    Strawman, ad hominem, strawman, ad hominem, all I can read from your posts. USING HIS ABILITIES IS NOT CHEATING, THEY WAY HE USES THEM IS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    I don't care about your assumptions and "most likely". Fact is, Shunsui would be much stronger.
    How are games much stronger? Does Byakuya Bankai make him faster or stronger? Does Zanka no Tachi make Yamamoto faster or stronger? Does Mayuri's baby centipede makes him faster or stronger? They don't. How are games going to make Shunsui stronger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    But the very ability is to pop out from nowhere, isn't it?
    Starrk was completely unaware of Shunsui's ability. Once he knew about it he dodged it. How is it not cheating when Shunsui waited until Starrk didn't have the guns or wolves anymore and to a moment where he got close to a shadow? Shunsui is just the kid who keeps making up rules in the middle of a game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    I'm to lazy to look it up. Where did he CUT SHUNSUI?
    When he cut his hat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    No, not really. It's just that you're an idiot, and only idiot would would respond what I wrote. I wanted you to write something else, what you did. The whole psychological shit above is baseless and stupid. Get some degree, before you write something like that to someone, who currently is studying psychology, ok?
    Fallacy of authority now? I really hope you fail because you are clearly not suited for this. It's amazing how you can completely change the topic to your will to the point it makes you unbeatable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Still, I call it tactics and personality. Shunsui thinks that honour is not revelant in a fight, that have to be won by any cost.
    Oh, so now you agree with me and don't even call me an idiot this time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Reread manga, please. Pretty please?
    How is Shunsui going to cut Starrk if he blocks the slash then? The only places where Starrk had black was in his shoes and Hollow hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    You're seriously overrating them. Get close to Stark, so the wolves will injure Stark as well? Use Bankai, that'd make him a little bit stronger? Use Irooni...?
    Those wolves are actually Starrk in a different manifestation, so they won't hurt him. Bankai rarely improves the user's strength directly. How is Irooni going to help if Shunsui is surrounded by those wolves? At best he could call a color neither of them are wearing and wait forever until Starrk left.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    So you agree, that having a mask DOESN'T make you stronger than people without it, right?
    No, I said that it's pointless to use Yamamoto when I'm clearly talking about the Vaizados compared to the other captains and Yamamoto is clearly not in that category. But even then, a mask dramatically increases the user's limits, so Yamamoto with one would become much, much stronger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    You don't congratulate someone and use "sir", if you're superior to him.
    This translation from Cnet:
    Quote Quote:
    Love: ...Good work.
    Shunsui: Mm. // Good to see you're okay.
    Love: .........You don't change, do ya?
    Says otherwise and so does this one from Ju-Ni:

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-33754-...apter-375.html

    Love was just complimenting him. Nothing about superior or anything. As previous captains they were just colleagues but now as a exile he could only refer to him respectfully according to age at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Ever heard of senior-captain? Kyoraku refers to Unohana as senpai. They're both captains, but that doesn't matter. He made a comment, Shunsui responded how CAPTAIN should behave. He is a captain himself, but he considers himself someone who can teach other captains how to behave. Well, I call it "considering himself superior".
    And I call it teaching others to be straight to the point. It was a reply to Love's comment.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  11. #940
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Well, that discussion seemed to have devolved rather quickly. So we agreed that Shunsui was superior to the Vaizards using simple deduction then. Great.

  12. #941
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    Re: [FEATURED] Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Those few words pretty much sum up your arguments. Now, if only you'd stop underestimating Yamamoto, and Shunsui.
    My sincerest apology for the simple mistake (& you should know I never intended to write it in that form because those four, were never in the same space together with Aizen) but regardless, your assertion of Aizen being wary of Yama inspite of what form he took is you making up stuff (& you saw the link when Aizen clearly mentioned that non can challenge him when the object, Hogyoku finally accepted his will).

    ---------- Post added at 10:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    The only thing that proves Kyouraku was stronger than the other captains is he became the Captain-Commander and not anyone else.
    Also, those "freaking strong" Vaizards were given a good beating by Starkk later on.

    Shinji is probably the only one that is even close to Kyouraku in terms of power through his abilities, and he is the unspoken leader of the Vaizards. The others possibly can't hope to be on par with him.

    ---------- Post added at 02:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 PM ----------

    And for the sake of the entire discussion, abide by the rules and discuss properly.
    When you say something like "You're such an idiot, you're so stupid", it will only result in that post to be deleted, not win you a debate over the others.
    He is captain commander because he is there to command. The skills and power he shown is nothing to write about.
    Also Stark unleashed his full might (all the wolfs) after Lilinette gave him a good talk. Shunsui & Ukitake never even witness a fraction of Stark's might (& Stark himself told them he wouldn't fight them with seriousness regardless of what those two pull out).

    Shinji is higher than Kyouraku & he has FAR greater realiable feats (& I'm not even getting to the mask because that just makes the other captain except for Aizen & Yamamoto noobs in comparation to them).

    Sometimes one CANNOT help but call someone out on their flawed logic (& usually they facepalm, swear & etc).

  13. #942
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: [FEATURED] Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    He is captain commander because he is there to command. The skills and power he shown is nothing to write about.
    Also Stark unleashed his full might (all the wolfs) after Lilinette gave him a good talk. Shunsui & Ukitake never even witness a fraction of Stark's might (& Stark himself told them he wouldn't fight them with seriousness regardless of what those two pull out).
    So, he is appointed for what? As a facade? Captain-Commander is the head of the Soul Society, so, he also needs the skill to be the head captain. Decision making alone won't make you the Captain-Commander.
    Well, I do agree he start taking the fight more seriously as time passed, but you also look over the fact that he was also as carefree against the Vaizards, if not more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Shinji is higher than Kyouraku & he has FAR greater realiable feats (& I'm not even getting to the mask because that just makes the other captain except for Aizen & Yamamoto noobs in comparation to them).
    I would love to have a look at your references. Please prove me how you can compare Shinji to Kyouraku, if you don't mind.
    The only possible way looks like comparing their fights to Aizen, but even that is a minor data, since both fights were rather short.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Sometimes one CANNOT help but call someone out on their flawed logic (& usually they facepalm, swear & etc).
    Everybody can have flawed points in their logic. We all have ideas that aren't perfectly developed. It's not really nice to use an offensive tone just for that reason. I also can't really believe in some of the proposed arguments here, but I don't jump over those who advocate them. That's why I made this request, which Miyagi previously had done also.

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    Re: [FEATURED] Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    So, he is appointed for what? As a facade? Captain-Commander is the head of the Soul Society, so, he also needs the skill to be the head captain. Decision making alone won't make you the Captain-Commander.
    Well, I do agree he start taking the fight more seriously as time passed, but you also look over the fact that he was also as carefree against the Vaizards, if not more.



    I would love to have a look at your references. Please prove me how you can compare Shinji to Kyouraku, if you don't mind.
    The only possible way looks like comparing their fights to Aizen, but even that is a minor data, since both fights were rather short.



    Everybody can have flawed points in their logic. We all have ideas that aren't perfectly developed. It's not really nice to use an offensive tone just for that reason. I also can't really believe in some of the proposed arguments here, but I don't jump over those who advocate them. That's why I made this request, which Miyagi previously had done also.
    You need to re-read my statement & perhaps chapter again. After "Lilinette gave him (Stark) a good talk", Stark unleashed his full might against the Vizards (all those Wolfs hit them) but against Shunsui & Ukitake he didn't. Stark also said, "regardless of whether or not you two fight at full power, I won't" Why? he doesn't like fighting (it's not his nature). The Vizards got all the might of Stark (his very soul) unleashed on them while Shunsui & Ukitake never even witness a fraction of Stark's power.

    Shinji (without Mask & without bankai) was the only individual (except Yama) in a one on one fight to do damage against Aizen with his haxx shikai (A shikai that isn't exactly normal for someoen to excape). Shunsui however never displayed any realiable feats & any feats that compares to Shinji (or the other Vizards to be exact. The so called seniority of these captains is nothing more than fanbase hype because Ukitake or Shunsui hasn't displayed any realiable, noticable good feats that trumps even a captain like Byakuya).

    I understand that. I myself will try to tone it down.

    Shunsui has more reputation as a captain compared to everyone else. He is also close to old man Yama so him being a commander (whose job is to command) isn't because he is the strongest (Unohana is even more skilled yet she ain't no commander) but because of he can command (& he has the rep).
    Last edited by Kay3795; December 27, 2012 at 06:40 PM.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: [FEATURED] Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    You need to re-read my statement & perhaps chapter again. After "Lilinette gave him (Stark) a good talk", Stark unleashed his full might against the Vizards (all those Wolfs hit them) but against Shunsui & Ukitake he did. Stark also said, "regardless of whether or not you two fight at full power, I won't" Why? he doesn't like fighting (it's not his nature). The Vizards got all the might of Stark (his very soul) unleashed on them while Shunsui & Ukitake never even witness a fraction of Stark's power.
    Well, it looked like he was demanding to see Bankai from Kyouraku when they were going one on one. Their swordsmanship looked pretty even mostly. At the very least, both acknowledged that this wasn't going to end that way, and used Shikai / Resurrection.
    Up to that point, Starkk wasn't keen on fighting, but he wasn't moody, either. He ambushed distracted Kyouraku, the Vaizard battle began and it was right at that moment that he lost his will completely, which gave the Vaizards the upper hand. Though, this was only temporary, since after the Lilynette interrupted with her preaching, he regained his motivation and defeated the Vaizards. Any wrong thing up to this point? Then, it's well known. Kyouraku comes out of shadows and strikes him with Kageoni.
    I don't really see how this can suggest the Vaizards to be stronger. He never fought Kyouraku or Ukitake in such despair. Against those two, he was trying to survive. Against the Vaizards initially, he was willing to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Shinji (without Mask & without bankai) was the only individual (except Yama) in a one on one fight to do damage against Aizen with his haxx shikai (A shikai that isn't exactly normal for someoen to excape). Shunsui however never displayed any realiable feats & any feats that compares to Shinji (or the other Vizards to be exact. The so called seniority of these captains is nothing more than fanbase hype because Ukitake or Shunsui hasn't displayed any realiable, noticable good feats that trumps even a captain like Byakuya).
    It's not that absurd, since he was one of the few people who took on Aizen one on one. Soifon was the only other current captain that fought him one on one in FKT, as far as I could recall (correct me if this is wrong, I didn't check it).
    The fanbase hype is created by the manga itself. Byakuya has showed his trump card, his Bankai numerous times. If we are to speak based on the feats, the Vaizards will fail to stand up to Byakuya, as well.
    At the moment, we haven't seen a proper fight from Ukitake, and Unohana never fought. But during this final arc, we will probably get to see a Bankai from those three, most likely from Kyouraku and Ukitake. And the Vaizards, apart from Kensei, are yet to show a Bankai, as well. We will get to see if Kubo has left the skills of the seniors up in the air for nothing or if they will live up to the hype. I tend to think it will be the latter, since there is no other reason to keep a captain class character unused for such an extended period.

    ---------- Post added at 06:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Shunsui has more reputation as a captain compared to everyone else. He is also close to old man Yama so him being a commander (whose job is to command) isn't because he is the strongest (Unohana is even more skilled yet she ain't no commander) but because of he can command (& he has the rep).
    I don't know. Out of reputation? Possible. Unohana is even more respected by her fellow captains, though. Remember Soifon calling out Kyouraku in the meeting after the battle? I don't think she could address Unohana that way.
    Out of decision making? I don't think so. There are a bunch of captains with Kyouraku's deduction skills. He is a smart fighter, but he isn't a genius strategist, so, this shouldn't have raised his chances for being the next Captain-Commander.

  16. #945
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Shunsui using his ability is not cheating. But lets put things into perspective shall we? Starrk shot Shunsui in the shoulder when he was distracted once. Shunsui returned the favor and stab him in the chest once. However, after Starrk shot him, Shunsui got a lot of time to relax and watch the Vaizards fight. When liza worked him up, he didn't immediately return the battle, instead he chose to let Rose and Love fight Starrk, and they involuntary became scapegoats for Shunsui and made Starrk release all of his wolves. When he stabbed Starrk, it was after he released all of his wolves against the vizards, and he didn't get time to relax and recover like shunsui, he immediately had to resume to battle.

    Remember all of Starrk's fight were in the air, up until Starrk decide to finished Love and Rose did he land on the ground and cast a shadow. If it were a straight 1 on 1 battle, would Shunsui have a chance to step on Starrk shadows unoticed? And even if he does, Starrk can easily react against it it judging from his intelligence.

    Is this fair or not? I don;t think it is. They both attack while the other was distracted, but one get a decent amount of time to relax, one didn't.

    As I've said, there are hints that Vaizards are stronger than Uki and Shunsui. WW easily speed blitsz Uki but had a hard time with maksed Mashiro, who is only vice captain standard compared to Love, Rose, Kensei, and Shinji http://www.mangareader.net/94-7114-7...apter-364.html

    Even without the mask, Love was able to overcome Starrk's ceros http://www.mangareader.net/94-31119-...apter-372.html, which shunsui had a hard time a against it.

    And I would say that in this current arc, where Bankai is retricted, Vaizards are more valuable assets than the current captains. Although I don't know if SS has banned them from using their hollow powers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I don't know. Out of reputation? Possible. Unohana is even more respected by her fellow captains, though. Remember Soifon calling out Kyouraku in the meeting after the battle? I don't think she could address Unohana that way.
    Out of decision making? I don't think so. There are a bunch of captains with Kyouraku's deduction skills. He is a smart fighter, but he isn't a genius strategist, so, this shouldn't have raised his chances for being the next Captain-Commander.
    I'm one of the few that don't like Shunsui as CC, I prefer Unohana. IMO, the reason why shunsui was chosen is that the other possible candidates for the positions all have flaws. Uki: sickness, Unohana: possible activation of massacre mode, Vaizard: not pure blooded shinigami anymore, others: too young.

    Yeah, based on elimination, it is logical that Shunsui is the CC, even though he might not be the strongest (compared to Unohana & possibly vaizards) or the smartest (Mayuri).
    Last edited by River_Capulet; December 28, 2012 at 12:01 AM.

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