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Thread: Ranking of Captains

  1. #1036
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    A>B>C logic? Where? Don't make me laugh at your first sentence, it makes you look bad.



    Worst state of despair? Don't make me laugh again. He wasn't in DESPAIR. Look it up in a dictionary before you write something so baseless. He was enraged because of Aizen's words. It wasn't Ulquiorra or Ginjo fight. Or even first fight with Renji and Byakuya. He was scared, he felt a little bit hopeless, but it doesn't have anything to do with despair. He thought fighting Aizen will be hopeless, not Gin.



    You always do, that's why discussing with you is always predictable and thus, boring.



    Ey, do you know, that Hinamori could kill Yamamoto when he was asleep? She must be stronger than him! The truth is, when real battle began, when Kenpachi started fighting, Tousen couldn't kill him. You want to tell me, that Kenpachi standing there like an idiot is some kind of proof, that Tousen is strong? It sounds stupid, it looks stupid, and IT IS stupid. Tousen ISN'T stronger than Kenpachi just because Zaraki was a sitting duck. And Hinamori killing Yamamoto in his sleep wouldn't make Hinamori stronger.



    "Witnessed his style" "his power". How? He was completely blind, he was fighting blind. You know what is a fact? Tousen couldn't kill Kenpachi even when he wanted to go for a kill despite Zaraki being blind and deaf.

    ---------- Post added at 01:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:47 PM ----------



    And what could he say to him? Tousen wants to change SS, take his revenge. What will make him follow Aizen? Change SS? CHANGE THE WHOLE WORLD! Take his revenge? Kill entire G13!



    Some people try to put ideology and and Gin's mental state to explain it. Aizen was extra cautious. I don't know if he would give Gin Hollowfication if he wanted. Frankly, I doubt it.



    You misunderstood my first post about it. You started explaining how he started with normal souls, what I knew.




    With Gin's potential, perfect Hollowfication would greatly help him. He wouldn't have to rely on his ability that much. With his potential and strength? If he could keep up with Hollowfied Ichigo without Hollowfication, then he could hope to achieve Shinigami Aizen level with Hollowfication.
    Gin pushed Ichigo & Tousen lost against Zaraki, then he got killed by Hisagi & Gin killed a 3rd seat & blah blah etc. That whole arguement is filled with A>B>C shenanigans.

    Yes the worse state of despair & if you were paying attention you will understand why instead of being foolisg about it. Ever since the Ulquirro battle, Ichigo has always been like that. Zangetsu made that especially very very clear http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...23-page-5.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...23-page-6.html It's not opinion, it's fact

    Predictable & boring but factual nontheless. At any rate, it's irrelevant you brought it up.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...6-page-11.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...6-page-12.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...6-page-13.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...6-page-14.html Tousen would have killed Zaraki with a simple sword to his thoat but instead wanted to teach him fear but by the time he went for the kill, Zaraki already caught on to the trick http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...7-page-12.html Zaraki avoided vital damage to the body at the last seconds http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...7-page-14.html But his ultimate stratagy to defeat Tousen was to get brutally stabbed sice reflexes would work alone against a captain http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...7-page-14.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...7-page-16.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...7-page-17.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...7-page-19.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...48-page-2.html
    THAT WAS ZARAKI'S ONLY WAY TO WIN!!
    Tousen could have instant kill Zaraki the moment he used bankai & that is a FACT!!
    Last edited by Hakuteiken; January 02, 2013 at 03:50 PM.

  2. #1037
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I think it's because he wasn't trying to get Aizen defeated by anyone else. He was trying to kill him himself and wanted to be alone to possess Hogyoku. He had to wait until Aizen defeated all others to carry out his plan.
    It's a pity he didn't speak to Urahara beforehand. He would knew about Aizen being near-immortal after the fusion.
    I'm a little confused on your first point. But as for Gin speaking to Urahara, he either didn't know him, wasn't aware of his whereabouts, or he just wanted to be the one to take revenge himself. Duniak's comment is another reason. But if they did team up, Aizen would have taken care of long ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    But still, Hollowfication would make him significantly stronger. Maybe he wouldn't need to rely on ability. Maybe he would be able to put up a fair fight with Aizen. Of course, he can't dream of anything near Mugetsu, but he would be one of the strongest characters if he had Hollow powers and trained them with his potential and growth rate.
    It would have made him stronger, but it wouldn't have guaranteed a win. I think a fair fight with Aizen is out of the question for anyone but Ichigo. Kamishini no Yari's poison was practically an instant kill shot. He went with the plan that had fewer risk and guaranteed results. He just didn't take into account the Hogokyu.
    Last edited by eefrit; January 02, 2013 at 03:49 PM.

  3. #1038
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by eefrit View Post
    I'm a little confused on your first point. But as for Gin speaking to Urahara, he either didn't know him, wasn't aware of his whereabouts, or he just wanted to be the one to take revenge himself. Duniak's comment is another reason. But if they did team up, Aizen would have taken care of long ago.
    Aizen's underlings took Rangiku's power and fed it to Hogyoku once and Gin witnessed that. One of his final words was that he couldn't get what was taken from Rangiku back. I' think he was also after the Hogyoku, not just after the kill. Otherwise, he wouldn't wait that long for to kill him or rather, this makes little sense from his perspective.

    Oh, I joked about Urahara part. Of course, he wouldn't let Urahara know of his intentions, either

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Aizen's underlings took Rangiku's power and fed it to Hogyoku once and Gin witnessed that. One of his final words was that he couldn't get what was taken from Rangiku back. I' think he was also after the Hogyoku, not just after the kill. Otherwise, he wouldn't wait that long for to kill him or rather, this makes little sense from his perspective.

    Oh, I joked about Urahara part. Of course, he wouldn't let Urahara know of his intentions, either
    I see, I see. I still think he underestimated the two though.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Aizen's underlings took Rangiku's power and fed it to Hogyoku once and Gin witnessed that.
    What they've taken from the power, went into the boobs.
    REVOLUTION! FREEDOM!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bromamura View Post
    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

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  7. #1041
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Aizen made him his subordinate because he is blind. If he wasn't his right hand, he would have figured out Aizen's plan, because he is immune to KS. How can he see a ritual if he is blind? xd

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-17.html
    Taking the entire dialogue without the context or more evidence on the contrary. Tousen wasn't chosen just because he was unaffected by Kyoka Suigetsu. If he was then he could have been just one of many of the hundreds of Shinigami or Hollow that worked for Aizen. Tousen was always seen doing important work for Aizen and was shown to be skilled and fast enough to serve as a close subordinate. And Aizen didn't just recruit Tousen like that. Tousen wanted justice and he wouldn't stand for a system that was rotten and filled with arbitrary rules so he joined Aizen who actually managed to unify Shinigami that would eventually rebel or Hollows that would otherwise kill each other, under the purpose of killing the Soul King and changing everything. Tousen's role was much bigger than just "blind guy immune to KS".

    ---------- Post added at 03:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    Wrong, Gin was the one considered as his right hand man
    Aizen is left handed. But seriously, what did Gin ever do? He killed some people sometimes, but it was always Tousen doing the work. While Gin spent his time messing around Tousen was always busy with something, or protecting Aizen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    Aizen clearly stated the reason why he recruited Tosen : because he was blind and unaffected by KS.
    And are you going to take a piece of dialogue just like that and ignore the rest? Tousen didn't need to be immune to have served Aizen so loyally for years, and in the end it was always Tousen who was besides Aizen while Gin was doing unimportant things. Hell, Aizen even trusted Tousen to the point he would risk getting cut in half.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    Also, the guy wanted revenge, so easy to manipulate and stuff, not like let's say Byakuya or Hitsugaya
    Manipulate? Aizen never asked his subordinates to trust them, which is true to his character. He promised that he would use their power to take over the throne and change things. Tousen didn't like how things were so he followed Aizen who promised to change things. Tousen simply found an answer in Aizen's actions, which were in fact more just than most of what Shinigami did anyway.

    ---------- Post added at 03:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    That could possibly make him inferior to a Vaizard, then. Imagine him combining his Hollow powers with his Bankai. He'd have an even more lethal combination.
    Though, he could become a bit too powerful for the plot at that case.
    Tousen's attack "Los Nueve Aspectos" was a vibration/sound based attack much like his Shikai. "Grillar Grillo" was also Spanish related to his Zanpakutou. He might have never lost his Zanpakutou and mixed it with his Hollow powers instead.

    ---------- Post added at 03:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Someone with his past and ideals is VERY easy to control and manipulate. Give him a reason and opportunity, he will do anything. And he was a potential threat. You really think, that disposing of him and risking, that he can give him away is better than ensuring he won't say anything and getting new comrade? And no, he wasn't excelling anyone in terms of strength. Aizen didn't take Kyoraku or Ukitake, or Kenpachi. He took Tousen, who wasn't really strong. Maybe he needed some shinigami to experiment on.
    If Tousen wasn't really strong then why did Aizen keep him at his side at all times? Unlike Gin who Aizen always knew would betray him, Tousen had an undying loyalty so he could have put him to clean the toilets in Las Noches, yet it was always there to do the story relevant stuff. And Tousen wasn't manipulated, he found Aizen to be more just than the Shinigami.

    ---------- Post added at 03:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    What I meant is Aizen was taking people not because of their strength, but because of personality and other things. And who had THE SAME IDEALS AS AIZEN?
    And why would Aizen pick Tousen and Gin? Gin was strong, and so was Tousen. Why wasn't anybody else by his side then? Why was it always Tousen who was working for Aizen even during TBtP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Gin and Tosen had their own agendas... I don't know how you got that ridicoulous idea, that they had the same ideals...
    Tousen hated the Shinigami and wanted the system to change. Aizen wanted to overthrow the system and Tousen and other Hollows joined him and found themselves safe next to him. Gin was only there because he wanted to kill Aizen and take the Hogyoku.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Aizen himself stated, that weak spirits can't handle complete Hollowfication. That's why he started with VC and Captains. THAT'S what we saw in TBTP. Since they didn't become perfect Vaizards, he had to experiment more. And who could he experiment on? Gin or Tosen. Gin would be too damn strong, he chose Tosen because he was weak.
    Those are some serious and unfounded assumptions right there. Which are also wrong. First of all, nothing says Gin is actually any stronger than other captains, he's just smart when it comes to battle. He might not even be among the strongest actually. And Aizen chose Tousen because he was weak? No. Tousen chose Hollowfication because he wanted to distance himself from the Shinigami, and because he wanted power to destroy their "wickedness". You are basing your assumption that Tousen was weak (which is almost contrary to what is shown in the manga) on nothing but poorly connected dots and memories.

    ---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    I don't think Aizen didn't use Hollowification on Gin because he'd be strong, rather Gin wouldn't let Aizen mess with him, we all know how Tosen ended up (exploding), being the sneaky bastard he is, he sure wouldn't let Aizen experiment on him at all
    Gin wasn't interested in Aizen's plan or in gaining power like Tousen and the rest, he just wanted to kill him. Tousen wasn't just force strapped into a hospital bed to be experimented on, he willingly Hollowfied himself, which was many times more advanced than the failed Hollowfication from TBtP.

    ---------- Post added at 04:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I guess we can say it for real. If Tousen was below Captain-level, he'd be killed by Aizen. But I get your point. There are stronger captains than Tousen who wouldn't follow him.
    From my perspective, it wasn't just that he was immune to KS, nor it was just because he was strong. He was, as you pointed out, the weakest link amongst strong people. Opening yourself to some other guy and telling him about your plans is very risky. You never know if he'll agree with your ideals or not. Aizen most likely saw through Tousen's character and how easily he was going to be manipulated. That's, to me, Aizen's reason to take Tousen with him.
    Weakest link? Manipulated? Tousen was a valuable asset who happened to share some similar beliefs with Aizen.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  8. #1042
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Weakest link? Manipulated? Tousen was a valuable asset who happened to share some similar beliefs with Aizen.
    In my opinion, Aizen couldn't care less about what Tousen's beliefs were. Like you said, Tousen was an asset, not his comrade. In other words, he was just his pawn.
    That's why when he exploded, he didn't bat an eyelid.

  9. #1043
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Tousen didn't even have his own Zanpakuto,
    Then what do you call that sword he carried around with an entire theme about justice and noise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Tousen got his ass kicked by Kenpachi (don't even start with teaching fear thingy
    Don't even start with that fear thing? You are purposefully dismissing facts from correcting your flawed logic because you know you can't refute it. Tousen could have killed Kenpachi but chose to give him a scare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    he himself stated he was aiming at vital spots)
    If by vital spots he meant the side of the chest and abdomen. I guess he didn't know basic anatomy. What about attacking the neck? Or the head? Why didn't he used Kido? He was skilled enough to skip an incantation of a level 50 spell and obliterate an Espada's arm with it. In the end he just fell for Kenpachi's trick which in turn got him close enough to get cut across the chest (which by the way, wasn't even that serious of a cut even though Kenpachi swung really hard). The plot demanded Tousen to lose even though Kenpachi was so much inferior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    hen Hollowfied Tousen in Ressurection got killed by a Vice-Captain.
    Hisagi stabbed him from the back, which was easy because Tousen was so excited about his new found sight and power that he ignored his senses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And Gin? He killed 3rd seat while being maybe 10? 20? He was just a kid. And he graduated from Academy in... a year?
    Tousen killed the fourth and third seats and Kensei, and achieved Bankai as a seated officer, and had gained enough trust from Aizen that he was already working next to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And despite being so young he was already a captain, that could probably handle most of captains? And he "killed" butterflaizen (He made him evolve, so thus, he killed him once).
    Aizen was just chillin and not paying attention anymore because of how strong he was. The normal Aizen would have never allowed Gin to even get close to the blade of his sword. And also Gin was still in Bankai, so all he had to do was aim his sword and extend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And then there was that fight in which he was pretty much on par with Ichigo. Or no, he was pushing him. We're talking about that Ichigo, who was said to have twice as big reiatsu as normal captain, and could Hollowify.
    First of all Ichigo was giving up upon seeing how powerful Aizen had become, second it was Gin's sword that Ichigo had trouble with, which you should know extends and retracts at a ridiculous speed. Ichigo always had to make sure the blade was never aimed in his direction or the fight would be over.

    ---------- Post added at 04:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    In my opinion, Aizen couldn't care less about what Tousen's beliefs were. Like you said, Tousen was an asset, not his comrade. In other words, he was just his pawn.
    That's why when he exploded, he didn't bat an eyelid.
    More like Aizen blew him up. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense for Aizen to be looking at where Tousen was, Komamura yelling at him and then telling Ichigo that Aizen was provoking him.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    More like Aizen blew him up. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense for Aizen to be looking at where Tousen was, Komamura yelling at him and then telling Ichigo that Aizen was provoking him.
    I think it was Komamura's misinterpretation that Tousen died because Aizen did something. At first sight, I thought the same, but since Aizen didn't show any o
    It suggests what I said, anyway. He didn't care about Tousen a bit. Tousen thought Aizen's perception was the right one, but Aizen didn't seem to value his opinion at all.
    He was the weakest link because he had a grudge against Shinigami, and thought something was wrong with how things were going on. Weakest by SS perspective. Byakuya would never think about following Aizen and his rules, for instance. Tousen was a perfect fit in that sense.

  11. #1045
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I think it was Komamura's misinterpretation that Tousen died because Aizen did something. At first sight, I thought the same, but since Aizen didn't show any o
    It doesn't take much time for somebody like Aizen to shoot Kido, and even a "weak" spell from him would be strong enough to blow and dying man into pieces.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    It suggests what I said, anyway. He didn't care about Tousen a bit. Tousen thought Aizen's perception was the right one, but Aizen didn't seem to value his opinion at all.
    Aizen didn't seem to care about anybody, but he still knew what had value and what didn't. If Tousen remained by his side for a hundred years was because Aizen found value in him, and as seen from that example above, was even willing to gamble his life due to how much he believed in Tousen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    He was the weakest link because he had a grudge against Shinigami, and thought something was wrong with how things were going on. Weakest by SS perspective. Byakuya would never think about following Aizen and his rules, for instance. Tousen was a perfect fit in that sense.
    By "weakest link" it would suggest Tousen was part of the Shinigami when in fact he always believed in something bigger than himself and distanced from the Shinigami from the very start since he became one. It's more like Aizen gathered a bunch of misfits that he found valuable.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    It doesn't take much time for somebody like Aizen to shoot Kido, and even a "weak" spell from him would be strong enough to blow and dying man into pieces.
    Oops, my sentence was cut in half, sorry. I was trying to say he didn't show any skill to detonate a person as a whole, but never mind. It could be. Like I said, it's not really important within what we are discussing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Aizen didn't seem to care about anybody, but he still knew what had value and what didn't. If Tousen remained by his side for a hundred years was because Aizen found value in him, and as seen from that example above, was even willing to gamble his life due to how much he believed in Tousen.
    That's something I could agree with. Though, a bit less than a hundred years, let's say. After Tousen became a captain, killing him and leaving him out of the plan wasn't an option anymore, since that act would draw too much attention all of a sudden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    By "weakest link" it would suggest Tousen was part of the Shinigami when in fact he always believed in something bigger than himself and distanced from the Shinigami from the very start since he became one. It's more like Aizen gathered a bunch of misfits that he found valuable.
    That's what I'm saying, as well.
    Both Gin and Tousen were recruited because of this particular reason. One portrayed himself to be a cold-blooded killer and the other was trying to create his own path. The difference is Tousen thought Aizen could be a savior, while Gin had his own reasons.

    But this is just one single side of the debate.
    Let's pass. My main argument that started this was Tousen was strong, but for Aizen to recruit him as a subordinate, strength wasn't enough. I don't think we disagree that much about this.

    Returning to the comparison now;
    To be fair, if they were to get into a battle, I doubt either of those two could survive the other's Bankai. Without Hollowfication, there wasn't any indication of Tousen being extremely fast, so, I don't think he could dodge Gin's Bankai.
    That said, if Tousen was to go Bankai first, for Gin to be countering it seems improbable, as well. Unless he spams his Bankai and somehow hits Tousen, of course. It's tough to call this one way or another for me.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Returning to the comparison now;
    To be fair, if they were to get into a battle, I doubt either of those two could survive the other's Bankai. Without Hollowfication, there wasn't any indication of Tousen being extremely fast, so, I don't think he could dodge Gin's Bankai.
    That said, if Tousen was to go Bankai first, for Gin to be countering it seems improbable, as well. Unless he spams his Bankai and somehow hits Tousen, of course. It's tough to call this one way or another for me.
    This makes me really wish that Tousen was given a good fight while he was a shinigami so we can see what he was really capable of. Instead he gets PIS fights. We have nothing to base his true abilities on. Unless we use Shuhei as a potential measure for his abilities since he taught him swordsmenship.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by eefrit View Post
    This makes me really wish that Tousen was given a good fight while he was a shinigami so we can see what he was really capable of. Instead he gets PIS fights. We have nothing to base his true abilities on. Unless we use Shuhei as a potential measure for his abilities since he taught him swordsmenship.
    True. That fight with Kenpachi could have been a lot better if it had some sort of realism. For instance, Kenpachi could have dodged his Benihiko, Tousen could have gone for a stab from behind where Kenpachi wouldn't be able to cut him even if he got a hold of his sword and so on.
    Shuhei is at around Gin's age, but with less of an improving speed, so, I guess we can't, since he didn't develop his skills that far to be a comparison to his captain. But on an interesting note, his dislike for his Zanpakuto's ability makes me think he shared the same philosophy with Tousen more or less.

  15. #1049
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    My point of view is that Aizen recruited Tousen not only because he is immune to KS. He must be a very valuable asset. If you guys recall the quarrel with Grimmjow, you'll see how Aizen clearly value Tousen more than the arrancar. Letting Tousen cut off Grimmjow's arm and got away it. Grimmjjow at that time was stronger than Ichigo (non vizard) and would have been a threat to any other captains. Yet Aizen still favors Tousen, it greatly indicates how much Aizen liked him.

    Maybe its just that Tousen or his zanpaktou is somehow related to Aizen. They both deal with senses. One alter the senses, one strip the senses. They also have similar weakness, when a person get in contact with the blade, the ability is nullified (basically).

    I don't know about Tousen Bankai, it the balloon thingy looks pretty fragile to me. What if someone like Kommaura released Myoo inside that balloon? will it get ripped apart easily? Or maybe it is reiatsu related, will a stronger reiatsu be able to suppress that ability, in which case what if Kenny released the eye patch inside it?
    Last edited by River_Capulet; January 03, 2013 at 03:51 AM.

  16. #1050
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Hakuteiken
    Well, Hisagi doesn't seem to be around Gin's age. Hisagi should be considerably younger. Hisagi is just a bit older than the likes of Kira and Renji. While Gin seems to be at the same age as Byakuya.

    And talking about Tousen... well, as just a Shinigami he seemed to me as one of the weakest ones. Maybe only Mayuri would be weaker than him.

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