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Thread: Ranking of Captains

  1. #1051
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    Hakuteiken
    Well, Hisagi doesn't seem to be around Gin's age. Hisagi should be considerably younger. Hisagi is just a bit older than the likes of Kira and Renji. While Gin seems to be at the same age as Byakuya.

    And talking about Tousen... well, as just a Shinigami he seemed to me as one of the weakest ones. Maybe only Mayuri would be weaker than him.
    Didn't Hisagi make an appearance TBTP? When Gin was a seated officer as a kid, Hisagi met Kensei when he was investigating the Rukongai districts for the disappearing people. I don't think there is that much of a gap.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    Hakuteiken
    Well, Hisagi doesn't seem to be around Gin's age. Hisagi should be considerably younger. Hisagi is just a bit older than the likes of Kira and Renji. While Gin seems to be at the same age as Byakuya.

    And talking about Tousen... well, as just a Shinigami he seemed to me as one of the weakest ones. Maybe only Mayuri would be weaker than him.
    I think that Hisagi look even older than Gin, or it could simply because Gin had the baby face. We don't actually know if Byakuya is older than Kira or Renji, I'd say that they are pretty much the same base on their look.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Gin pushed Ichigo & Tousen lost against Zaraki, then he got killed by Hisagi & Gin killed a 3rd seat & blah blah etc. That whole arguement is filled with A>B>C shenanigans.
    No, it is not. Saying Kenpachi won against Tousen and Ichigo won against Ulquiorra doesn't make it A>B>C logic. xD All fights aren't related. Still, saying Gin killed 3rd seat of Shinji's squad while being like 10 shows his potential. Something we've never seen in Tousen's case. He didn't even want to become Shinigami. Revenge because of his beloved friend made him become Shinigami.

    Quote Quote:
    Yes the worse state of despair & if you were paying attention you will understand why instead of being foolisg about it. Ever since the Ulquirro battle, Ichigo has always been like that. Zangetsu made that especially very very clear http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...23-page-5.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...23-page-6.html It's not opinion, it's fact
    "fact" "despair"

    Those are two words you REALLY need to look up in a dictionary.

    He was in HUGE despair while fighting Ulquiorra. I don't see him despairing while fight with Aizen. He isn't half dead, helplessly trying to save his friend, or he doesn't have his all family mindfucked and taken from him. He doesn't have his powers taken, he isn't being left helpless on the ground. Oh, and he is not screaming like crazy and crying.

    Quote Quote:
    Predictable & boring but factual nontheless. At any rate, it's irrelevant you brought it up.
    Factual? Did I mention looking it up in a dictionary?

    Tousen would have killed Zaraki with a simple sword to his thoat but instead wanted to teach him fear but by the time he went for the kill, Zaraki already caught on to the trick Zaraki avoided vital damage to the body at the last seconds But his ultimate stratagy to defeat Tousen was to get brutally stabbed sice reflexes would work alone against a captain THAT WAS ZARAKI'S ONLY WAY TO WIN!!
    Tousen could have instant kill Zaraki the moment he used bankai & that is a FACT!![/QUOTE]

    WOW, those are cool pages you showed me! I saw them like... 1000s times?

    You're talking about Tousen's strength. This is shounen manga and NOONE cuts his opponent's throat at the beggining. Ichigo could have done so twice back in SS arc. And you know what... Hinamori could kill Yamaji during his sleep with cutting his throat too! :O But that WOULDN'T make her strong. Just as cutting Kenpachi who wasn't even fighting or trying to fight wouldn't make Tousen strong. And I don't know why Zaraki's way to win is relevant to disccusion about Tousen's strength. It's Kenpachi, he doesn't have any ability, doesn't know Kido. Swinging sword like crazy wouldn't make him win. By the way, Yamaji did the same with Aizen. That makes Yamaji weaker than Tousen? In the end, THAT WAS HIS ONLY WAY TO WIN! (I won't bold it like you). Oh, and there was that suicide technique he used... By your logic, using such means makes you weaker? Great logic, you would really shine in elementary school.

    When Kenpachi started to do something, Tousen couldn't kill blind guy without any ability. THAT is a fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Taking the entire dialogue without the context or more evidence on the contrary. Tousen wasn't chosen just because he was unaffected by Kyoka Suigetsu. If he was then he could have been just one of many of the hundreds of Shinigami or Hollow that worked for Aizen. Tousen was always seen doing important work for Aizen and was shown to be skilled and fast enough to serve as a close subordinate. And Aizen didn't just recruit Tousen like that. Tousen wanted justice and he wouldn't stand for a system that was rotten and filled with arbitrary rules so he joined Aizen who actually managed to unify Shinigami that would eventually rebel or Hollows that would otherwise kill each other, under the purpose of killing the Soul King and changing everything. Tousen's role was much bigger than just "blind guy immune to KS".
    Yup, read other posts. He was strong, he was a captain, but he wasn't the strongest captain and strength wasn't deciding factor, and he was easy to manipulate. You brought up nothing new.

    Quote Quote:
    Aizen is left handed. But seriously, what did Gin ever do? He killed some people sometimes, but it was always Tousen doing the work. While Gin spent his time messing around Tousen was always busy with something, or protecting Aizen.
    Tousen felt obliged to protect Aizen. Gin didn't care about saving Aizen, he was concerned about others not being killed by Aizen. Gin did his part. Tousen was always short tempered. He was Aizen's Orihime, or Juha's Haschwald. Always worried about his superior. I just need Tousen shouting "AIZEN-SAMA!" everytime someone attacks Aizen. Aizen was wary of Gin, not Tousen.


    [quote]And are you going to take a piece of dialogue just like that and ignore the rest? Tousen didn't need to be immune to have served Aizen so loyally for years, and in the end it was always Tousen who was besides Aizen while Gin was doing unimportant things. Hell, Aizen even trusted Tousen to the point he would risk getting cut in half.

    He was serving him loyally because of Aizen's strength and Tousen thinking, that with Aizen he can "change that rotten world". Aizen RISKING anything? How can you say that he was risking if you don't even know if it was real Aizen? It could have been illusion made specifically to lure Shinji so Tousen could cut him down. And it's Aizen we are talking about. Many tried to cut him from the back, noone could. Trust has nothing to do with power. Aizen knew Tousen would die for him. Tousen is the type who would abandon his life to change a world. And if he believed, that Aizen would change the world, he would GLADLY helped him in it by sacrificing himself. That doesn't make him strong.


    Quote Quote:
    Manipulate? Aizen never asked his subordinates to trust them, which is true to his character. He promised that he would use their power to take over the throne and change things. Tousen didn't like how things were so he followed Aizen who promised to change things. Tousen simply found an answer in Aizen's actions, which were in fact more just than most of what Shinigami did anyway.
    Tousen felt, that Aizen's power will bring him success in changing world, and Aizen used it to recrute him. Thaaat's exactly what I call "manipulating".




    Quote Quote:
    Tousen's attack "Los Nueve Aspectos" was a vibration/sound based attack much like his Shikai. "Grillar Grillo" was also Spanish related to his Zanpakutou. He might have never lost his Zanpakutou and mixed it with his Hollow powers instead.
    Spanish names, so far, were trademark of Hollows. Shikai was normal, Bankai was traded for Ressurection, that's how I see it.


    Quote Quote:
    If Tousen wasn't really strong then why did Aizen keep him at his side at all times? Unlike Gin who Aizen always knew would betray him, Tousen had an undying loyalty so he could have put him to clean the toilets in Las Noches, yet it was always there to do the story relevant stuff. And Tousen wasn't manipulated, he found Aizen to be more just than the Shinigami.
    Aizen didn't care about them. He said himself, that he needs no trust or reliance, he doesn't care. It's natural for weaker beings to believe in stronger ones. He was interested in Gin, so he recruited him. Tousen was an easy and pretty strong asset, he recruited him. (He was one of 10 top fighters in SS, so...). And why was Tousen by his side all the time? Because he was Aizen's obedient slave, that thought he chose his own path, while he walked path of Aizen, that he thought was the same as his.


    Quote Quote:
    And why would Aizen pick Tousen and Gin? Gin was strong, and so was Tousen. Why wasn't anybody else by his side then? Why was it always Tousen who was working for Aizen even during TBtP?
    Because he WAS strong? The whole argument there was that Tousen wasn't one of the strongest captains, he was still a captain, but he wasn't recruited because of his strength alone.



    Quote Quote:
    Those are some serious and unfounded assumptions right there. Which are also wrong. First of all, nothing says Gin is actually any stronger than other captains, he's just smart when it comes to battle. He might not even be among the strongest actually. And Aizen chose Tousen because he was weak? No. Tousen chose Hollowfication because he wanted to distance himself from the Shinigami, and because he wanted power to destroy their "wickedness". You are basing your assumption that Tousen was weak (which is almost contrary to what is shown in the manga) on nothing but poorly connected dots and memories.
    Already wrote about that. 10 y.o. killing a 3rd seat was pretty impressive. He graduated from academy in a year, he was called prodigy. Aizen was interested in him despite knowing his intentions. He was pushing back Ichigo, who was said to be twice as strong as captain. And READ ALL POSTS, before you butt into discussion and write stupid things. I've never said Tousen was weak. I won't write what was my point AGAIN.

    Quote Quote:
    Gin wasn't interested in Aizen's plan or in gaining power like Tousen and the rest, he just wanted to kill him. Tousen wasn't just force strapped into a hospital bed to be experimented on, he willingly Hollowfied himself, which was many times more advanced than the failed Hollowfication from TBtP.
    Again...

    And perfect Hollowfication wouldn't help him in killing Aizen. And after failing it wouldn't help him escaping/staying alive.

    Quote Quote:
    Weakest link? Manipulated? Tousen was a valuable asset who happened to share some similar beliefs with Aizen.
    In Aizen's three-people group he was the weakest link for me. And yes, he was manipulated. Aizen blew him up when he saw he lost. He wouldn't have any use from his power, so he didn't bother letting him live.

  4. #1054
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    While you're talking about Tousen: it's funny that Tousen never lost while blind. He only lost to Kenpachi in bankai (which, if I understand right, enables him to see) and then in Resurreccion which does the same.
    Erfworld

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by 0Xellos View Post
    While you're talking about Tousen: it's funny that Tousen never lost while blind. He only lost to Kenpachi in bankai (which, if I understand right, enables him to see) and then in Resurreccion which does the same.
    He was used to fighting blind. He depended on everything else. Kenpachi was fighting like that for the first time. He couldn't even hear anything, while Tousen could.


    Btw, I don't remember him being able to see. If he could, why wouldn't he go everywhere with his bankai? xd Komamura, I want to know how you look like! Bankai! Oh, you're ugly! And despite having this bankai, he didn't know how blood looks like. (He was very glad to see blood, sky, and Komamura). And it looked like it was the first time he was able to see. Which doesn't make sense IMO, because he was shown to be so happy about seeing. I mean, he wasn't training his Ressurection? He just... had it? He must have been able to see few times.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    If he could, why wouldn't he go everywhere with his bankai?
    1. Most bankais consume quite the ugly amounts of reiatsu, since they're usually big shit. Bankais that actually compress reiatsu (Yama, Ichi) are rare.
    2. Not much to see inside a black balloon
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    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

  7. #1057
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    I think that Hisagi look even older than Gin, or it could simply because Gin had the baby face. We don't actually know if Byakuya is older than Kira or Renji, I'd say that they are pretty much the same base on their look.
    I think we can know he was older. Rukia and Renji decided to take on the Academy after around 10 years or so if we go by their first appearance, and a short time later, Byakuya adopted Rukia into Kuchiki family as a captain, who was a kid around 60 years before he became a captain, in TBTP arc. Renji cannot possibly be Byakuya's peer by this logic.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Hakuteiken
    Well, we know that Gin is the same age as Rangiku and more or less with Byakuya, while Hisagi seems to be closer to the likes of Hinamori, Hitsugaya, Kira, Renji and Rukia.
    Also It seems that Gin might have just been a shorty at that point. The same way Hitsugaya is now. Even though he is the same age as Renji, Hinamori and Kira, he seems by far younger.
    But well, it's very difficult to talk about the age in Bleach. Especially since Royal Guards were introduced.

    River_Capulet
    Byakuya should be considerably older. Remember, when Byakuya met his wife she was even older than the current Rukia (judging by her look), but when she left Rukia she looked closer to the current Rukia's age, while Rukia was a baby who was just born. At the same time we know judging by Renji's child memories, that he and Rukia have more or less the same age. Hinamori, Kira and Hitsugaya also have more or less the same age. While, Hisagi was just a grade or something higher than them in Shinigami Academy and seemed just a bit older than the same Renji or Kira.
    Last edited by Jorge D. Dragon; January 04, 2013 at 06:26 AM.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Your arguments are very solid, but still, I can't understand how there can be such a difference between Byakuya and Hisagi, especially when they were all portrayed to be kids in the same arc, alongside Gin and Rangiku.
    The only explanation I can come up with is Hisagi took the Academy way older than Renji and Co. did, and he was their Senpai, not just by a year or so, but also with considerable age difference.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Well, it does seem that something is quite messed up .
    Still, I've always thought of Byakuya as a person who is considerably older than Hisagi. Maybe around 30 or more SS years, especially since 1 year of SS seems to be way more compared to a Living World ones. Especially, when we look at Rukia who was 200 years old in the begining of the story.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Maybe, between all those people that look like kids, there is an age difference, too, but I don't know how big that gap could be. The age concept amongst the Shinigami isn't something we can get a hold of. Maybe they are already around 70-100 in TBTP, and when one looks like 7, the other looks like 10 and we tend to think they are peers or something

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Well ppl not "looking their age" seems rather common in reality, too. (Guesses of my age are usually distributed around 16-21.) If we guess just a few years off, it's actually a lot more in SS, haha.
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    No, it is not. Saying Kenpachi won against Tousen and Ichigo won against Ulquiorra doesn't make it A>B>C logic. xD All fights aren't related.
    And what does that make your claim when you say Tousen was beaten by Hisagi? You were ignoring the reasons behind Tousen's defeats just to justify your claim that he was weak. Yes, you said that. I'm bringing this up because of what you said below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Still, saying Gin killed 3rd seat of Shinji's squad while being like 10 shows his potential. Something we've never seen in Tousen's case. He didn't even want to become Shinigami. Revenge because of his beloved friend made him become Shinigami.
    Something we've never seen in Tousen's case? He was a 5th seat and beat or killed everybody above him. What he used on Kensei was probably Bankai. This is what happens when Tousen actually aims to kill instead of trying to teach his opponents fear, as Kensei wasn't plot armored. You got it backwards, Gin has never shown to be able to take down a captain with such ease.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    "fact" "despair"

    Those are two words you REALLY need to look up in a dictionary.
    Right back at you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    He was in HUGE despair while fighting Ulquiorra. I don't see him despairing while fight with Aizen. He isn't half dead, helplessly trying to save his friend, or he doesn't have his all family mindfucked and taken from him. He doesn't have his powers taken, he isn't being left helpless on the ground. Oh, and he is not screaming like crazy and crying.
    Ichigo doesn't have to be screaming or anything to be in despair. Against Ulquiorra he was fighting for survival, but against Aizen he completely gave up. And don't ignore how Ichigo's performance had dropped due to his fear of Hollowfying again, and how fucked up his resolve was during the entire arc. He was completely lost and had absolutely no idea on what to do, afraid to try anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    WOW, those are cool pages you showed me! I saw them like... 1000s times?
    Your tendency to completely ignore everything that doesn't benefit your argument is infuriating. Sure, go ahead, just ignore the evidence and say you have seen it a thousand times already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    You're talking about Tousen's strength. This is shounen manga and NOONE cuts his opponent's throat at the beggining.
    And now you are going on the defensive saying that because it doesn't happen in the manga (when in fact it totally does, and it ends here because I can't come up with more words to link to other pages). You should know you can't apply plot armor when trying to rank people by strength outside of the source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Ichigo could have done so twice back in SS arc. And you know what... Hinamori could kill Yamaji during his sleep with cutting his throat too! :O But that WOULDN'T make her strong. Just as cutting Kenpachi who wasn't even fighting or trying to fight wouldn't make Tousen strong.
    In a direct confrontation it shows how important some abilities like Tousen's or Shinji's are. All it takes is a split second to kill an opponent. Physical power is not the only type of power. But speaking of physical, how is it that Tousen could cut Kenpachi with such a laughable ease, and also chop Grimmjow's arm off with no effort, but Kenpachi can't even mortally wound Tousen with a slash like this? And not only that, Tousen with a mask can take a punch from Komamura's Bankai and with Hollowfication he can stop it with ease. And that is just physical strength; his sound based abilities also increase, making them a hundred times deadlier. Look how much can be brought against your claim, you just inadvertently dug your hole deeper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    It's Kenpachi, he doesn't have any ability, doesn't know Kido. Swinging sword like crazy wouldn't make him win. By the way, Yamaji did the same with Aizen. That makes Yamaji weaker than Tousen? In the end, THAT WAS HIS ONLY WAY TO WIN! (I won't bold it like you). Oh, and there was that suicide technique he used... By your logic, using such means makes you weaker? Great logic, you would really shine in elementary school.
    Read these, please:
    http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
    http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

    Both Kenpachi and Yamamoto being forced to be stabbed shows how helpless they were in their situation, nowhere does it say they are weak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    When Kenpachi started to do something, Tousen couldn't kill blind guy without any ability. THAT is a fact.
    The only fact here is that Tousen didn't actually try due to plot induced idiocy. There were multiple ways he could have killed Kenpachi but instead he slowly approached Kenpachi and cut him everywhere but actual vital spots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Yup, read other posts. He was strong, he was a captain, but he wasn't the strongest captain and strength wasn't deciding factor, and he was easy to manipulate. You brought up nothing new.
    You should read my post instead. Not only was Tousen's ability incredibly dangerous, but his strength was also of use to Aizen. And by strength I mean actual strength. And Tousen willingly followed Aizen because his plan would change Soul Society and was more just than them. No manipulation from that side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Tousen felt obliged to protect Aizen. Gin didn't care about saving Aizen, he was concerned about others not being killed by Aizen. Gin did his part.
    Wait, whoa, hold it there. First of all, if Tousen felt obliged to protect Aizen, then why didn't Aizen move or try to block? He didn't even attempt to attack or defend because he was confident in Tousen's strength. And second, Gin was concerned about the others not being killed by Aizen? What? How did you... What? Gin didn't care about them, he didn't even care about participating, he was just watching them fall like flies one by one because he know he was the only one that could do it. Gin's part was to have no part in the matter, he was literally just tagging along.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Tousen was always short tempered. He was Aizen's Orihime, or Juha's Haschwald. Always worried about his superior. I just need Tousen shouting "AIZEN-SAMA!" everytime someone attacks Aizen. Aizen was wary of Gin, not Tousen.
    ...what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    He was serving him loyally because of Aizen's strength and Tousen thinking, that with Aizen he can "change that rotten world"
    Tousen never followed Aizen because he could "change the rotten world". He simply followed the path of justice and Aizen's was more just than the Shinigami. Hell, if you compare Aizen to the Shinigami then Aizen is actually the good guy who everybody disagrees with. Just about anything Aizen could have done to Soul Society would be better by default.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Aizen RISKING anything? How can you say that he was risking if you don't even know if it was real Aizen? It could have been illusion made specifically to lure Shinji so Tousen could cut him down.
    Because Aizen was not going to show any weakness, and using Kyoka Suigetsu in a direct challenge would come up as cowardly. He also said that he would engage Shinji with his sword, so that makes it even less probable that he was using an illusion there. But anyway, seeing how Shinji can cut Aizen without much difficulty unlike Ichigo, it would have been dangerous for Aizen to take the slash. It becomes obvious that he was confident in Tousen's strength. Even in the end when all the Espada were down, Aizen said "in the end your strength would be below my own. Gin, Tousen, let's go". There's really more evidence towards Tousen being strong and trusted by Aizen than anything claiming otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Many tried to cut him from the back, noone could.
    Shinji could, Soifon could, Shunsui could (?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Trust has nothing to do with power. Aizen knew Tousen would die for him. Tousen is the type who would abandon his life to change a world. And if he believed, that Aizen would change the world, he would GLADLY helped him in it by sacrificing himself. That doesn't make him strong.
    You are very wrong in two things. Tousen was afraid of death and would never sacrifice himself. Actually, both Gin and Tousen were afraid of death; they either had something they wanted to see completed (proven) or simply were afraid of leaving forever. And about that strength thing, I already said that Aizen trusted Tousen enough that he would just stand there with a sword swung at his neck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Tousen felt, that Aizen's power will bring him success in changing world, and Aizen used it to recrute him. Thaaat's exactly what I call "manipulating".
    You can only call it manipulating when you manipulate facts in such a way. Aizen promised he would become the new Soul King; Tousen found his actions to be more just than the Shinigami, so he joined Aizen. It was Tousen's decision that made him follow Aizen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    panish names, so far, were trademark of Hollows. Shikai was normal, Bankai was traded for Ressurection, that's how I see it.
    And isn't Grillo just the name of his Zanpakutou in Spanish? And that noise ability related to his Zanpakutou? Whether his Zanpakutou was sacrificed or not doesn't mean the essence of his abilities vanished.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Aizen didn't care about them. He said himself, that he needs no trust or reliance, he doesn't care. It's natural for weaker beings to believe in stronger ones. He was interested in Gin, so he recruited him. Tousen was an easy and pretty strong asset, he recruited him. (He was one of 10 top fighters in SS, so...). And why was Tousen by his side all the time? Because he was Aizen's obedient slave, that thought he chose his own path, while he walked path of Aizen, that he thought was the same as his.
    Tousen found the path of Justice more along Aizen's so he followed him religiously. In return, Aizen found Tousen's strength valuable enough to keep him by his side at all times even though there were others very powerful who would also lick his boots clean out of pure devotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Because he WAS strong? The whole argument there was that Tousen wasn't one of the strongest captains, he was still a captain, but he wasn't recruited because of his strength alone.
    Recruiting is besides the point. Aizen had 2 captains, tens or maybe even hundreds of Shinigami and Rukongai citizens under his command, thousands of Hollows, hundreds of Arrancar, 10 exceptional Hollows out of which 4 were Vasto Lorde and one of was a big ape with humongous power. Why Tousen? Why didn't he chose somebody else to trust and have him follow at all times? It's obvious that he had to keep a close watch on Gin, but what about Tousen? Tousen was loyal, so why not pick somebody probably stronger? Or maybe it wasn't about strength, so why not have smart people like Szayel helping him? It seems that Tousen was more valuable to Aizen than anybody else, and stremgth seems to be the bigger option.

    It's all justified anyway, because as shown during his fight with Kenpachi, argument with Grimmjow, TBtP and fake Karakura battle, Tousen can take on a captain with low difficulty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Already wrote about that. 10 y.o. killing a 3rd seat was pretty impressive. He graduated from academy in a year, he was called prodigy. Aizen was interested in him despite knowing his intentions. He was pushing back Ichigo, who was said to be twice as strong as captain.
    Ichigo could have been 10x stronger or 100x stronger than a captain, but it wouldn't matter because Gin's Bankai was absurdly fast to the point that Ichigo was more worried about the direction of the sword rather than Gin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And READ ALL POSTS, before you butt into discussion and write stupid things. I've never said Tousen was weak. I won't write what was my point AGAIN.
    It depressed me that you advise me to read all posts when I'm already responding to them point by point. But about you never saying that Tousen was weak...

    Quote Quote:
    And who could he experiment on? Gin or Tosen. Gin would be too damn strong, he chose Tosen because he was weak.
    You called from the past and said hi, Your posts are constantly downgrading Tousen, even if most don't directly say he's weak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And perfect Hollowfication wouldn't help him in killing Aizen. And after failing it wouldn't help him escaping/staying alive.
    ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    In Aizen's three-people group he was the weakest link for me. And yes, he was manipulated. Aizen blew him up when he saw he lost. He wouldn't have any use from his power, so he didn't bother letting him live.
    1- Not manipulated
    2- No actual reason to believe he was the weakest link
    3- Aizen liked provoking people.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Ichigo could have been 10x stronger or 100x stronger than a captain, but it wouldn't matter because Gin's Bankai was absurdly fast to the point that Ichigo was more worried about the direction of the sword rather than Gin.
    Going by strength approximately equals reiatsu, 100x stronger than a captain and still worried about the direction of KY is an exaggeration. He could just imbue his skin with reiatsu, like Kenpachi, and then he'd have to watch out for his eyes at most. (That wouldn't eliminate the threat of the poison, of course.) When your reiatsu is so much higher than your opponent's, haxxed abilities don't matter.
    Erfworld

    Quote Originally Posted by Bromamura View Post
    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by 0Xellos View Post
    Going by strength approximately equals reiatsu, 100x stronger than a captain and still worried about the direction of KY is an exaggeration. He could just imbue his skin with reiatsu, like Kenpachi, and then he'd have to watch out for his eyes at most. (That wouldn't eliminate the threat of the poison, of course.) When your reiatsu is so much higher than your opponent's, haxxed abilities don't matter.
    I totally agree. This is what Kenpachi and Aizen pointed out as basics.
    Besides, I don't really get the point of being more worried about the sword. Zanpakuto and the Shinigami aren't two different entities. There is no reason to make it look like anyone can wield the same katana and use that ability. Gin is the only one capable of shooting a katana at the speed of light to slice an array of buildings into two instantly.
    And I don't think poison is even relevant in the respective battle. Ichigo didn't know Gin had such an ability, so, he didn't have such an idea in the back of his mind.
    Gin also had zero intent to kill Ichigo. If he had, he already had the chance to do so, when Ichigo was watching Aizen's battle with his back turned against Gin. As he himself explained to Aizen, Gin was merely testing what Ichigo had as potential.

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