Ranking of Captains

[Torran]

Oh, of course it was. Go few posts back and see what I did there.

I had to go back a page because you never elaborated your points. The claim was that Kenpachi was helpless and you answered as if the claim was that he was weak and that didn't make Tousen strong, even though the point was about Tousen being able to easily kill him.

Daaamn, tl;dr. For Tousen it was justice, but his version of justice was corrupted and wrong. Your whole post doesn't change anything.

Don't TLR me. My point was that Tousen's version of justice was the actual universal (unless the Japanese have a different version) meaning of justice, and not wrong or corrupt. But you are right, it doesn't change a thing because you are once against ignoring any evidence that burns your claim to the ground.

Do you know what "IMO" means? You can't prove to me, that he's stronger as well. ^^

I can't prove that he's the strongest but I've already proved that he's strong and capable of taking down high level fighters with ridiculous ease, and valued as Aizen as strong and not just for his loyalty or immunity to his KS.

In terms of intelligence, he is an idiot. When it comes to fighting, he is experienced fighter, but not intelligent.

I'm not talking about fighting, but about his actually valuable insight every once in a while. Just because Kenpachi throws everything out of the window once he gets involved in a fight doesn't mean that he's unable to actually think about what he's doing. He's changed Ichigo and Ikkaku's points of view, knows the value of giving up and can actually read a person if he wants to. He noticed Gin and Tousen and how they behaved and felt they feared death for whatever reason.

If that translation is correct than I might agree with that ONE panel, out of 2 you showed. Translation is to be blamed then.

His purpose was to live to keep his friend's ideal of a just world alive. Dying would be extremely detrimental to his plans that involved living for something.

[Beatrice]

I'm only gonna go by my gut now.

1 - Don't think I need to explain on why Yamamoto is here?
2 - Aizen. Also self explainantory.
3 - Oshō
4 - Unohana
5 - Other 4 Royal Guards
6 - Shunsui/Ukitake
7 - Sasakibe
8 - Ginrei Kuchiki/Yoruichi
9 - Gin Ichimaru
10 - Shinji Hirako
Rest what magicaurora said.

However, I leave out Urahara and Mayuri.
IMO they're positions are too hard to determine as they are masters of prep.
Mayuri with prep is dangerous for everyone, same goes for Urahara.
I'm also leaving out Tessai as Kido Corps wasn't associated with the Gotei 13.

[Torran]

Yup, go back back again and read every post again. Your posts as well. Kenpachi being helpless and Tousen being able to kill him doesn't make Tousen stronger.

Then what do you have to say about this then?

There's NOTHING universal in this world. Nor there is in Bleachverse.

I'm pretty sure "fairness" is globally understood and even among some animals.

Tousen followed what he thought was justice. Killing people isn't just. Justifying it with moral reasons isn't as well.

Killing people isn't just. Punishing killers is just.
Killing without moral justice is not righteous. Killing for the sake of it is. It's two different concepts working together, similar to the death penalties across the world and history.

You can't prove he's stronger than any of those I mentioned. He can take down HIGH LEVEL FIGHTERS with ease? Where? I must have missed it!

Hey look, you just answered your own question. No surprise considering how you dismissed that page like that. He took down Kensei and could have taken down Kenpachi too. He also blitzed Grimmjow and obliterated his arm effortlessly. And then his Hollowfication amplifies his strength and powers, which undeniably makes him even stronger. As for other things he took a direct cut from Kenpachi and was fine 5 minutes later and with Hollowfication his durability increased.

He was valued by Aizen for his strength?

*Cuts Harribel, who didn't have a single cut or gave any signals of fatigue*
"Who would have thought that your strength, which I so painstakingly assembled, would be inferior to that of my own"
"Gin, Tousen, let's go".
He also warned Grimmjow about attacking Tousen, and had him as a direct subordinate despite having very strong Arrancar like Ulquiorra, Starrk or Harribel who would gladly lick his feet too. At this point it's very apparent that Tousen's loyalty wasn't the only thing he valued.

Don't make me laugh. It's obvious Aizen wouldn't make Shunsui or Ukitake follow him.

This doesn't translate to "Tousen was weaker so he could recruit him".

For a captain he was a joke, but Aizen knew, that he'd follow him to death.

You are completely unable to back this up. I'll give you the chance to edit this part.

His insight is mostly battle-concerned. He changed Ichigo's point of view? Where?

Battle and killing instinct.

It doesn't have anything to do with intelligence.

I'm pretty sure I wrote "Insight" and "He's not an idiot, he just acts like one".

Ikkaku changed because he met someone so much more powerful, and decided to listen to him and respect his will to let him live. I think Kenpachi was spared once, by a person he admired, and was told the same.

Even if that's the case, Kenpachi can understand the meaning of those words and make somebody understand them too. And in this case he was able to notice Gin and Tousen uneasiness towards death.

Like there is something that can be called justice. Justice isn't equality, and justice isn't beneficial for most.

I never said justice was equality, but that it meant that an action should be returned. And Tousen's purpose was to keep his friend's idea of a just world alive. You are still changing the point that's about Tousen fearing death.

[0Xellos]

Beatrice: if you want to include Kuchiki Ginrei in the list. He's long dead, we don't really know about him and he never had much of a role in the story. I think such characters don't really belong in this thread.

Torran & Duniak: Searching for keywords 'Yama', 'Ken', 'Aizen'. All 3 found -> my opinion on your discussion is that this has been here before and you've said all you could, and there's nothing more you can do to convince each other. Why don't you just agree to disagree?

Discussing total ranking is starting to get boring. Let me pose a more specific though about 'ranking of captains':

Shunsui and Ukitake. Who is stronger?
I rate Shunsui higher. His ability is more versatile (as far as we saw), and his physical condition is way better. If Ukitake starts coughng blood in the middle of a fight, it's pretty much game over for him, and as we saw in the fight against Hollowkaien, it can happen pretty much anytime (since he acted as if he didn't expect it to happen before he kills Hollowkaien).

[Beatrice]

Beatrice: if you want to include Kuchiki Ginrei in the list. He's long dead, we don't really know about him and he never had much of a role in the story. I think such characters don't really belong in this thread.

So where does it say he is dead?

And OP said former and current.I'm merely went by what was said.
And Ginrei being a beast is evident by one of Kubo's formula of Shinigami Power.
Even then, Yamamoto trusted him just like Shunsui and Ukitake in terms of Power.

And last time I checked Gin IS dead.

[Hakuteiken]

Shunsui and Ukitake. Who is stronger?
I rate Shunsui higher. His ability is more versatile (as far as we saw), and his physical condition is way better. If Ukitake starts coughng blood in the middle of a fight, it's pretty much game over for him, and as we saw in the fight against Hollowkaien, it can happen pretty much anytime (since he acted as if he didn't expect it to happen before he kills Hollowkaien).

I'm inclined to wait for them to go Bankai first, but Shikai vs Shikai, Kyouraku looks like a more dangerous opponent, if not stronger. I wonder how a fight between the two would develop, though.

---------- Post added at 05:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 PM ----------

So where does it say he is dead?

And OP said former and current.I'm merely went by what was said.
And Ginrei being a beast is evident by one of Kubo's formula of Shinigami Power.

And last time I checked Gin IS dead.

Both Ginrei and Gin are yet to be confirmed dead.
I guess it's not about being dead, anyway. But if Ginrei is indeed dead, we won't have a chance to see his powers in the future, as well, which would then matter.

[Beatrice]

Both Ginrei and Gin are yet to be confirmed dead.
I guess it's not about being dead, anyway. But if Ginrei is indeed dead, we won't have a chance to see his powers in the future, as well, which would then matter.

It's evident Gin is dead, not sure what hope there is left.

And we don't need to see Ginrei's power.
There were only 3 people told to protect Seireitei in turning back the Pendulum.
Shunsui,Ukitake,Ginrei.
That alone speaks for power that Yamamoto entrusts Ginrei to protect the place when everyone else was gone.
Yamamoto said it himself:
Assume the worst, this isn't just some incident, the entire pride of the Gotei 13 is at stake.

[Torran]

Torran & Duniak: Searching for keywords 'Yama', 'Ken', 'Aizen'. All 3 found -> my opinion on your discussion is that this has been here before and you've said all you could, and there's nothing more you can do to convince each other. Why don't you just agree to disagree?

Because there's such a thing as facts and objectivity. And agreeing to disagree means giving up and making it all a waste of time.

Shunsui and Ukitake. Who is stronger?
I rate Shunsui higher. His ability is more versatile (as far as we saw), and his physical condition is way better. If Ukitake starts coughng blood in the middle of a fight, it's pretty much game over for him, and as we saw in the fight against Hollowkaien, it can happen pretty much anytime (since he acted as if he didn't expect it to happen before he kills Hollowkaien).

Both should be equal under normal combat circumstances but Shunsui for close combat opponents and Ukitake for long range opponents. But in terms of level headed Shunsui freaks out all the time while Ukitake is more relaxed in battle, so Ukitake. If you bring Ukitake's tendency to cough his lungs out every other day then Shunsui is stronger. Ukitake looks also terribly skinny and tired most of the time so at the moment he might not even be stronger than a vice captain.

[Hakuteiken]

It's evident Gin is dead, not sure what hope there is left.

And we don't need to see Ginrei's power.
There were only 3 people told to protect Seireitei in turning back the Pendulum.
Shunsui,Ukitake,Ginrei.
That alone speaks for power that Yamamoto entrusts Ginrei to protect the place when everyone else was gone.
Yamamoto said it himself:
Assume the worst, this isn't just some incident, the entire pride of the Gotei 13 is at stake.

True. It looked exactly at that way.

In the same arc, Kyouraku stated that he himself and Ukitake were the only ones to be captain for over 100 years by that time, and Ukitake reminded him of Unohana. Ginrei wasn't mentioned, so, even if he was way older by looks than those two, he hadn't been a captain for a century. At the very least, we might conclude he was no genius or could say he only took the position when his presence was needed. Too tough to elaborate on.

---------- Post added at 05:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:38 PM ----------

Ukitake looks also terribly skinny and tired most of the time so at the moment he might not even be stronger than a vice captain.

True. It's a given that Ukitake isn't really one of the healthier people in terms of stamina.

[River_Capulet]

I don't think that Ginrei is dead, cuz there are no reason for him to. The last 2 major threatening events that the Gotei 13 had is the quincy war 200 years ago and the hollowfication of captains 110 years ago. He was seen alive 110 years ago, and since then up until the Aizen rebellion, there are no big events that can threaten a captain.

I think that he only take the captain position of the 6th division when none other in his family is strong enough to. When an individual qualifies as a captain, like Byakuya, he'll step down and let him take the position. He's one of the few shinigami that looks old, I don't think we can underestimate him.

[DraMas26]

1. Unohana (she said it 4-5 times and I don't see why she would be lying)
2. Yama
3. Aizen
4. Shunsui
5. Ukitake

I think those are the Top 5 from the Gotei 13 atm. I left out Kenpachi because he's going to get stronger when he learns Bankai as well. When he reaches full potential he may be first.

[Hakuteiken]

1. Unohana (she said it 4-5 times and I don't see why she would be lying)
2. Yama
3. Aizen
4. Shunsui
5. Ukitake

I think those are the Top 5 from the Gotei 13 atm. I left out Kenpachi because he's going to get stronger when he learns Bankai as well. When he reaches full potential he may be first.

Unohana was definitely inferior to Captain-Commander. Unohana said she was stronger than anyone else, but it's probably just about Zanjutsu. In other words, her swordsmanship is unrivaled, but aside from that there is no reason to think he is above Kyouraku, either.

[DraMas26]

Unohana was definitely inferior to Captain-Commander. Unohana said she was stronger than anyone else, but it's probably just about Zanjutsu. In other words, her swordsmanship is unrivaled, but aside from that there is no reason to think he is above Kyouraku, either.

Actually according to what she said Unohana is all but confirmed to be stronger than Yama.

She was clearly not referring to Zanjutsu because she said Zaraki was stronger than her and Zaraki doesn't know any Zanjutsu.

So when Unohana said she was stronger than anyone else than it means she could defeat everyone in a battle including Yama. Her Bankai also seems to counter Zanka No Tachi. Even if Yama is coated in the flames of sun, if his skin melts off then its pointless and he'll die. Unohana has her kaido with her as well.

Besides Unohana herself claimed she was bored of the sword and she was searching through Rukongai for a worthy opponent. Why would she feel like this if Yama was stronger than her? The only way her words seem to make sense is if she's claiming she's stronger than Yama.

Makes sense to me because Yama always avoided saying he was the strongest Shinigami alive.

[BaddAzzKenpachi74]

Makes sense to me because Yama always avoided saying he was the strongest Shinigami alive.

So we basically are down to whether Yama or Unohana are lying correct?

Because Yama also said that the reason he is still the Captain Commander is that there hasn't been a shinigami more powerful than him in his entirety as Captain COmmander for 1000 years (which would include Unohana).

[Hakuteiken]

Actually according to what she said Unohana is all but confirmed to be stronger than Yama.

She was clearly not referring to Zanjutsu because she said Zaraki was stronger than her and Zaraki doesn't know any Zanjutsu.

So when Unohana said she was stronger than anyone else than it means she could defeat everyone in a battle including Yama. Her Bankai also seems to counter Zanka No Tachi. Even if Yama is coated in the flames of sun, if his skin melts off then its pointless and he'll die. Unohana has her kaido with her as well.

Besides Unohana herself claimed she was bored of the sword and she was searching through Rukongai for a worthy opponent. Why would she feel like this if Yama was stronger than her? The only way her words seem to make sense is if she's claiming she's stronger than Yama.

Makes sense to me because Yama always avoided saying he was the strongest Shinigami alive.

Zaraki indeed was a superior swordsman (don't ask how, it was Unohana who pretty much said it more or less) to Unohana.
I can easily deduce Shikai Captain-Commander will be enough for Unohana judging by what she has shown. She was a criminal back a millennium ago, and she joined the Gotei squads presumably after getting defeated by Captain-Commander himself.

Actually, I view it as the opposite. She was:
1) No match to Captain-Commander's fighting capabilities,
2) Probably not allowed to fight her superior to death to her heart's content in any case.

Besides, placing Unohana above Captain-Commander is going to mess the already messed up power levels more. That would immediately place Kenpachi above Captain-Commander's level, which was probably around Bach's level at full, so, Kenpachi would have been given too much of a power boost.