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And when it comes to who is faster, then Yoruichi is out of the question, and so is Aizen, and consequently Yamamoto., therefore any of the other captains. So unless you count the Royal Guard, I don't your list will even reach five.
Soifon is neither slow or weak in any way, and she's never shown to lack skill either. But I guess she suffers from the Komamura syndrome that she's believed to be weak by the readers only because she has lost all her battles.
Last edited by Miyagi; November 22, 2012 at 06:38 PM.
Yeah, I understand that Soifon and Komamura aren't simply weak... but they are among the weaker captains, for sure.
Soifon's reatsu was so weak that Aizen could totally negate her sword's ability. Yourichi could beat her without using any weapon. She's a very new and inexperienced captain.
Komamura's also a fairly new captain. And Tousen, who was also a new captain, was easily able to destroy his bankai without even going bankai himself, or using hollow powers. Aizen took him out with a weak, unchanted Kido spell - which isn't totally fair, since it's Aizen - but still, we see that Komamura isn't exactly the strongest captain.
So yeah, both of them are strong, since they are captains in the Gotei 13. But when you compare them with the top fighters in all of Bleach, they are weak as hell.
^ Actually, the supporting evidence is... the events of the manga.
There's nothing to indicate that the 2 of them are among the strongest captains. And their battle records indicate they are among the weaker of the captains. Are they simply weak? No, they are captain-class. Are they among the strongest fighters in Bleach? Hell no.
There are other things too, like Soifon didn't just develop Shunko that morning, Yourichi was so far above Soifon in skill that she could exactly match her movements and reatsu to cancel the technique, Tousen could damage Komamura's bankai before hollowifying, etc. etc.
I'll stop discussing this here, as this is really off-topic. :-/Moved to different thread.
Last edited by Cyrs; November 22, 2012 at 06:38 PM.
I don't think Soifon or Komamura are weak. At least when fighting Kenpachi, it seemed Komamura was stronger than Tousen. What happened after Tousen undergone Aizen's experiments is another story. And Yourichi is quite a monster, fighting along with Urahara and Isshin against Aizen, so it's not a shame that Soifon lost to her.
She totally did. And she hadn't even used it before.
So no, your so called "evidence" doesn't exist.
^ No. Every fight in the manga involving Soifon and Komamura indicate they are not among the top-tier captains. You keep appealing to things like "bad match-ups" and the like, and demanding specific evidence to disprove your totally unsupported claim of their superior strengths. It's like if I said Chad is actually not one of the weaker characters, he's just had bad match-ups, or he was injured so Nnoitora could take him out, or whatever. When you have to repeatedly make excuses for why a character lost, time and time again, your argument loses credibility.
Obviously, they are strong fighters, they are captain-class. But by the events of the manga itself they are not among the strongest fighters. You can make up all sorts of reasons why you think they are really strong and underrated. But the burden of proof is on you to provide clear, incontrovertible evidence in favor of it. Because as it stands, the manga does not back up your viewpoint.
For example, Soifon's ability doesn't work on someone with high-level reiatsu. Yourichi went easy on her during their fight. Tousen actually got weaker after hollowifying, that's what Hisagi said.
Anyway, you're certainly entitled to your opinion,
but if you want to discuss this any further, you should start a thread about it. This is my last post about it here.Moved to different thread.
Last edited by Cyrs; November 22, 2012 at 06:39 PM.
^ You are not making sense, and you're being really rude. This line sums it up:
You're not listening, you're misinterpreting what I'm saying, and you're not making any clear point. What are you trying to say about Soi Fon and Komamura? Where do you think they rank among the captains? Soi Fon is a fast character? Okay, and?
When characters lose, lose, and keep losing, sure it is more understandable that they are losing to strong characters. But obviously they aren't as strong. And there's a really large gap in strength. Did I say they are weak? No, you keep misunderstanding what I say. And you keep putting forth your opinion as manga fact, like when the manga itself says Yourichi was going easy on Soi Fon (end of their battle).
I don't see much point in continuing this, since it stopped being civil. You win, Komamura and Soi Fon are the 2 strongest captains. What was I thinking.
I don't know how to state my opinion this debate.
Here are as much as I know.
If not giving your best to kill off someone is going easy on that person, both Yoruichi and Soifon went easy on each other.
For Soifon, it was just a way to prove her superiority to her former master, the person she got abandoned by. She would rather defeat her and let her be than go for the kill.
For Yoruichi, it was more of a reunion.
If your resolve wavers even that slightly, things change drastically.
But going easy on someone shouldn't be interpreted as letting that person have his or her own way and it wasn't the case for either character.
And about her reiatsu..
Well, Ichigo had twice the reiatsu of a regular captain and was hopeless against pre-Hogyoku Aizen, so, it's not that Soifon possesses below average reiatsu. It's just that Aizen is too strong.
Well, I can't clearly tell where Komamura would rank, but Kurohitsugi isn't a weak spell. Aizen was able to produce the third of its full power without incantation, sure, but you cannot call a 90 Hado weak from any perspective.
It's not as flashy as Hado 88 Tessai uses, but that barely changes this fact.
Despite his hax bankai, Tousen was always a lower echelon captain in terms of strength. I suppose he'd be unable to defeat Komamura without hollowfication, but this is just a presumption based on Komamura's durability over time.
And one last thing.
Matchups indeed play a role. Byakuya and Kenpachi, defeated Zommari and Nnoitra in HM. Now, if the matchups were to be transposed, they'd be in for a real trouble. In fact, with his abnormal release, Zommari was definitely going to be a tough opponent for anyone that specializes in close combat. Oh, actually, it doesn't have to be close combat, but moving your limbs.
Zommari had his worst possible opponent in front of him.
Now, if Soifon and Kyouraku switched..
Soifon would lose, because she has no way of coming close enough to released Starkk and attack him, and you cannot dodge forever. That may hold true without the release, as Starkk is proven to be very proficient with Sonido.
But I seriously doubt Kyouraku would fare any better against Barragan. Soifon's Bankai didn't do any harm to him and we cannot say it's weak, because it created a huge explosion. Granted, we don't know about Kyouraku's Bankai, but it's clear to me that he'd prefer to fight Starkk if he knew about Barragan's power.
All in all, I'm not drawing a comparison between a senior captain and relatively very young Soifon, but I just used their respective fights as instances.
Anyway regarding what I said.
Soifon is an assasin, therefore she is specifically specialized in many arts that compliments her being an assasin.
The fundamental yet the most vital skills which is required of her as an assasin is high lvl Speed, Reaction & Distraction. She's got all these but nontheless there are many characters faster than her. Just because many characters are indeed faster than her, doesn't connote that they are better skilled nor does it connote they can do Soifon's job better than her.
There are many factors to be considered in the subject of what makes a good assasin. The most prominent of these factors is control.
How well Soifon make use of her speed, reaction & distraction in battle is what makes her dangerious. It's not just the speed.
So far we know she is highly developed in these skills & she makes use of them as effectively & as efficiently as possible.
I said she makes use of her very specific skills didn't I? One of these skills is the ability to make clones of herself to distract her opponent in order for her to deliver a very specific strike. I consider Soifon the Zommari of the gotei 13. Zommari is not the fastest espada but he makes use his sonido in a very special & dangerous way.
Now, pertaining to what I said before about her not being close to the fastest & about her being unable to probably react to 5 characters because they could probably do what Unohana's master did to her this chapter & also about what I said about 20 characters being faster than her.
Everything I said there, I wholeheartly meant it without a doubt.
The characters I believe are able to do what Unohana's master did this chapter are: Aizen, Ichigo, Isshin, Juha Bach & Ryuken & maybe Yoruichi
The 20 characters that I believe are faster than her are:
Yama, Aizen, Isshin, Ichigo, yoruichi, (possibly) shunsui, Ulquiorra, Stark, Juha Bach, Ryuken, Haschwald, all 5 members of the royal guard , Uryu (with his final form enhancement), Fake Bach, & the sternritter than suprised Shunsui. I sure many many many more characters are faster & I'm sure there are more will be revealed later on as the story progresses.
Also I don't understand the hype around her on speed during the SS arc against Yoruichi & Aizen.
Yoruichi for one admitted she was so out of it (rusty) that she wouldn't stand a chance against Byakuya in a fight. That's a very big thing to say considering who she is.
Also I don't understand the hype around her for being able to "catch" Aizen who didn't even care. Should I assume Hisagi & Rangiku are faster than Tosen & Gin because they were 'caught' too? No that makes no sense especially now that we know what Aizen is capable of.
Last edited by Kay3795; November 22, 2012 at 08:53 PM.
Komamura has always had rough treatment in the manga however there is the consideration that he has always fought aizen. Obviously he wouldn't be close to matching aizen however he has never had a fight we have seen against a standard enemy so to speak.
Soifon is almost without a doubt the fastest captain out there. Her only opponents have been gigio to whom she gave the fodder treatment, barragan who was god damned segunda espada and aizen, who puts god damned segunda and the combined power of 8 captains to shame before spitting on it. There is hardly much to go on here. She did fight a quincy however without bankai she is naturally going to have trouble with blutz. We also don't know exactly which characters are faster than her for that matter. The only one that might be faster would be shunsui and even that is somewhat doubtfull. Yoruichi has perhaps regained her form by now. Its plainly not fair to compare her to aizen or yamamoto or the royals (who seem to be in the thousands of years old in comparison to soifon's couple hundred).