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Thread: Ranking of Captains

  1. #556
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    This is coming out of nowhere, as it's never stated that those three captains are the lowest tiers, and in fact, all the captains are treated equally. And I don't know where the hype from Shunsui comes from when he hasn't shown anything impressive in the manga aside from teaming with Ukitake to fight Yamamoto off panel for a while. His victory over Starrk was due to his game abilities and not skill, and his fight against the mustached guy this arc doesn't help his image either, not to mention he also lost easily against Aizen.
    But you have to consider the possibility that mustache guy wasn't an ordinary Stern Ritter.
    People have been going about the hyped and failed Espada, but Espada simply did know nothing about Shinigami.
    Quincy truly know about who has Bankai and I bet they know who has what type of Bankai as well, in that daten they received, so, I'm assuming they were scattered across Seireitei according to a plan.
    And his game abilities belong to his Zanpakuto, so it's a part of his strength. It's not cheating, although for the opponent it may seem as if it's unfair to battle through those games.

    I believe Kyouraku's hype is a well-earned one, not to mention him being one of the first two academy graduates, a pupil of Captain-Commander for a millennium and someone who was praised by Captain-Commander himself to possess an unrivaled finesse in skills, alongside Ukitake.
    It'd be a real letdown from me if we aren't shown Kyouraku and Ukitake's Bankais in this arc at some point.

    ---------- Post added at 11:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Yoruichi is so rusty she admitted not standing a chance against Byakuya at all.
    She isn't what you would call a competent fighter at that point in time. She became rusty at performing all her skills.

    Yoruichi carrying Ichigo & his Zanpakuto didn't downgrade her speed. I can't believe you said that actually ^_^
    These's characters use reiatsu to fight not physical strength hence Isshin's statement vs Grandfisher.

    Also lets look at the Byakuya vs Yoruichi little non serious shunpo tag fight again ^_^ http://www.mangareader.net/94-572-13...apter-118.html http://www.mangareader.net/94-572-14...apter-118.html http://www.mangareader.net/94-572-15...apter-118.html http://www.mangareader.net/94-572-16...apter-118.html http://www.mangareader.net/94-572-17...apter-118.html
    She used the escape jutsu (I've been watching too much Naruto lol), I mean shishou (the same tech Byakuya used to escape zommari) to escape Byakuya.

    So yh, she really was rusty.
    That technique is called Molting Cicada, as far as I know.
    It's a technique you use when you are so cornered that the sole chance to step aside is this. Kind of a trump card for a Shunpo user.
    So, she was cornered by Byakuya actually.
    But Byakuya himself is a very skilled Shunpo user, in fact, to the point that he himself can use that Molting Cicada technique.

    As rusty as Yoruichi might be, we shouldn't take her words that seriously, I think.
    How rusty someone nicknamed Goddess of Flash can get?

  2. #557
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    That wasn't the only reason the speed feat was displayed nor was it the most important. It was displayed to show Soifon's maturity lvl as a captain & more importantly, it was used confirm to the fans (finally) why the zero squads sit back & watched when SS gets trashed.
    Those have nothing to do with the real reason. Shunsui and Unohana were unhappy with their visit, and Shunsui even asked them coldly why they were there, to imply the Royal Guard aren't just guards, and that there's something shady about them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Zommari is not the fastest espada but he makes use his sonido in a very special & dangerous way.
    Not the fastest? Why not? No other Espada were shown to be that fast except for Starrk. Creating clones out of speed is not something that anybody can do. It means that they have exceptional Shunpo skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    The characters I believe are able to do what Unohana's master did this chapter are: Aizen, Ichigo, Isshin, Juha Bach & Ryuken & maybe Yoruichi
    Aizen has never been as good as a specialist at anything and he has never been shown to be anything more than just faster than a normal captain, and the same goes for Isshin. Ichigo needs Bankai to be that fast. Ryuken and Juha Bach are just your predictions as they are yet to show any kind of impressive speed. Bach's little fight with Ichigo consisted of him grabbing hair and balls to get a better hit. And Yoruichi was just outmatched in every way until she pulled Shunko. Out of those only two have ever displayed the same speed Soifon did, who is constantly getting praised for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Yama,
    Has never shown to be exceptionally fast, except for that time he beat Shunsui in a race, who has never been shown to be exceptionally fast either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Ulquiorra, Stark,
    Ulquiorra in his 2nd stage maybe. Starrk doubtful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Juha Bach, Ryuken, Haschwald
    Nothing to go by.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Fake Bach
    Keeping up with Yamamoto is nothing to throw a party at. Also, I don't think Yamamoto ever used Shunpo in that fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    the sternritter than suprised Shunsui.
    Same goes for Shunsui.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Yoruichi for one admitted she was so out of it (rusty) that she wouldn't stand a chance against Byakuya in a fight. That's a very big thing to say considering who she is.
    She was lying. Her skill shown was nothing short of impressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Also I don't understand the hype around her for being able to "catch" Aizen who didn't even care.
    The guy who is always so careful that he deploys Kyoka Suigetsu or a shield to protect him, who is always so attentive allowed somebody to immobilize him and put a sword on his neck. Right. Gin was just watching the spectacle and when he noticed Rangiku he just played along. Tousen just stood there because it was wiser once they all got surrounded by the entire forces of the Gotei 13.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    No that makes no sense especially now that we know what Aizen is capable of.
    He isn't capable to fight with his hands grabbing a sheathed sword immobilized or a sword pointed at his neck and another 8 captains around him. He had nowhere to go so the Menos had to bail him out. He's strong but not omnipotent. And his hand also got caught in Hitsugaya's ice later, so it's not like it's impossible to buy a few seconds against him.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  3. #558
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Yoruichi is so rusty she admitted not standing a chance against Byakuya at all.
    She isn't what you would call a competent fighter at that point in time. She became rusty at performing all her skills.

    Yoruichi carrying Ichigo & his Zanpakuto didn't downgrade her speed. I can't believe you said that actually ^_^
    These's characters use reiatsu to fight not physical strength hence Isshin's statement vs Grandfisher.

    Also lets look at the Byakuya vs Yoruichi little non serious shunpo tag fight again ^_^ http://www.mangareader.net/94-572-13...apter-118.html http://www.mangareader.net/94-572-14...apter-118.html http://www.mangareader.net/94-572-15...apter-118.html http://www.mangareader.net/94-572-16...apter-118.html http://www.mangareader.net/94-572-17...apter-118.html
    She used the escape jutsu (I've been watching too much Naruto lol), I mean shishou (the same tech Byakuya used to escape zommari) to escape Byakuya.

    So yh, she really was rusty.
    She was rusty, yet she still was able to outmaneuver Byakuya, not just for dodging that one attack, but in the end she mocked him to chase her, knowing that he couldn't. So back to Soi fon, if Yoruichi was faster than him, and Soi fon was able to blitz her, than I can easily say that she can also blitz Byakuya or any captain around Byakuya's level. At Yoruichi prime, she could be on par with Yama or Aizen, but at that point, than I'll give her 8.5, Byakuya 8.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    She was rusty, yet she still was able to outmaneuver Byakuya, not just for dodging that one attack, but in the end she mocked him to chase her, knowing that he couldn't. So back to Soi fon, if Yoruichi was faster than him, and Soi fon was able to blitz her, than I can easily say that she can also blitz Byakuya or any captain around Byakuya's level. At Yoruichi prime, she could be on par with Yama or Aizen, but at that point, than I'll give her 8.5, Byakuya 8.
    Aaaand with Ichigo on her back. If she hadn't been rusty she would have blitzed Soi-Fon. Still, Soi-Fon is the fastest captain I think. I mean, she has to be, considering her seat and specialty.

  5. #560
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Those have nothing to do with the real reason. Shunsui and Unohana were unhappy with their visit, and Shunsui even asked them coldly why they were there, to imply the Royal Guard aren't just guards, and that there's something shady about them.
    Many fans of bleach have been wondering WHY the zero squad sit "idly by" (as Soifon puts it) in the sky when SS gets it butts Kicked.
    Ichigo stood in the stead of the fans & asked Shunsui in the last week's chapter of bleach "why'd they wait until soul society was in shambles" before they
    helped.

    Soifon is an emotional character who makes her emotions very apparent. I.e at the funeral of Yama (a father figure to her),
    she behaved unprofessional & rudely by letting her emotions overwhelm her.

    Soifon's character in the resent chapter fit the role similar to that of a scapegoat perfectly to ask the Zero Squad directly without hesitation why they sit
    "idly by" during the massacre of SS.
    Soifon is also a character who wouldn't permit any form of injustice hence she was the perfect shapegoat for Kubo to use to finally confirm to the fans WHY,
    WHY & WHY
    they don't interfere even in the destruction.

    The answer was then confirmed by the Zero Squad's monk (who I assume is the leader) that they are specifically following orders "by the will of the soul King
    " (btw this was before Soifon's outrage).
    The answers to Soifon's question (rather outrage) was revealed before she even asked it, signifying just how, she as a captain is still very immature by letting her emotions of her take control.

    The Zero Squad (who obviously weren't there to waste time) ignored her & went on with business.
    Soifon who is obviously on her period then yells again at the Zero Squad.

    kuwabara finally got tired of her shenanigans & shut her up by setting her striaght by saying
    "The imperial special forces's job is to protect the spirit palace & the gotei 13's job is to protect the soul society...
    As someone who bears the name of gotei..Don't go crying to us bout how help didn't come just becaz you couldn't do shit.
    It's already bad enough you're a disgrace to that title!"

    So you saying "It was displayed to show Soifon's maturity lvl as a captain & more importantly, it was used confirm to the fans (finally) why the zero squads sit back & watched when SS gets trashed." is not the reason is OBVIOUSLY INCCORECT because that was the reason.




    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Not the fastest? Why not? No other Espada were shown to be that fast except for Starrk. Creating clones out of speed is not something that anybody can do. It means that they have exceptional Shunpo skills.
    Don't be ridiculous, Zommori is certainly not the fastest espada.
    He had the fastest sonido. His speed followed by Byakuya.
    He never even caught Byakuya once until Zommori used Byakuya's comrades as pawns. He was completely outmatched by Byakuya.
    Also the use of afterimages in this manga does not connote who is the fastest in Bleach.
    IIRC Stark never used any yet he's much faster than Zommori




    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Aizen has never been as good as a specialist at anything and he has never been shown to be anything more than just faster than a normal captain, and the same goes for Isshin. Ichigo needs Bankai to be that fast. Ryuken and Juha Bach are just your predictions as they are yet to show any kind of impressive speed. Bach's little fight with Ichigo consisted of him grabbing hair and balls to get a better hit. And Yoruichi was just outmatched in every way until she pulled Shunko. Out of those only two have ever displayed the same speed Soifon did, who is constantly getting praised for it.
    Again don't be ridiculous. Aizen not only taught the leasons of an assasin (inplying he has the quilities of one), he examplified his speed by blitzing SOIFON, Toshiro, Shinji & Shunsui all at the same time in an instant.
    Isshin is all about combat. He himself said his Zanpakuto is similar to Ichigo's Zan & to prove his worth, he fought equally with Aizen (in fact it seems he was winning).
    I'm sure Ichigo (as of resent) is faster than Soifon without bankai. He matched Byakuya in SS arc & he's much better now.
    Juha Bach will oneshot 5 Soifons Aizen style with speed lol. I can't believe you just questioned that one.
    He has Hirenkyaku which was said to be superior to shunpo. He blitz Yama with it too.
    I'm certain Ryuken is also much fast. Quincies are fast. Isshida has vollstandig.

    Yoruichi was rusty, nuff said.




    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Has never shown to be exceptionally fast, except for that time he beat Shunsui in a race, who has never been shown to be exceptionally fast either.
    Yama is a master of the shinigami arts like Aizen is. Speed ain't no problem for him. He blitz WW & punched his gut out of existance.
    Yama also praised Shunsui for taking Nanao to a save distance in a single leap (Shunsui demonstated a very high speed shunpo





    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Ulquiorra in his 2nd stage maybe. Starrk doubtful.
    Ulquiorra maybe? How Insulting!!
    Stark is faster than Shunsui





    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Nothing to go by.
    Nothing to go by? How about Logic then? For one you have nothing to say otherwise & also these are TOP tier characters of the highest lvl. Juha Bach(the main villain who is also a quincy), Ryuken(the last quincy), Haschwald are TOP tier (quincies have superior shunpo tech).





    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Keeping up with Yamamoto is nothing to throw a party at. Also, I don't think Yamamoto ever used Shunpo in that fight.
    He was dodging everymove Yama was making with ease (except North). The speed of techs have been proven to be greater than foot speed. Byakuya is a perfect example of this because senbonzakura is as fast, no even faster than himself (according to him anyway).


    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Same goes for Shunsui.
    He played Shunsui in speed who Yama praised in speed & who kept up with Stark. We haven't been given a reason to think Soifon is faster. I already said she is a master assassin thus has the skills of one. Speed isn't the only skill of an assassin.




    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    She was lying. Her skill shown was nothing short of impressive.
    She was lying? Prove it!!
    I can prove she was telling the truth.





    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    The guy who is always so careful that he deploys Kyoka Suigetsu or a shield to protect him, who is always so attentive allowed somebody to immobilize him and put a sword on his neck. Right. Gin was just watching the spectacle and when he noticed Rangiku he just played along. Tousen just stood there because it was wiser once they all got surrounded by the entire forces of the Gotei 13.
    LOL. You must have missed how nonchalantly Aizen behaved in all of that scene. He even smiled. In fact why talk about this scene when he later on proved that he could blitz Soifon, Shunsui, Shinji & Toshiro AT THE SAME TIME so you cannot be serious about that scene. You just can't!!
    What you said about Gin also similarly applies to Aizen.
    You are correct that Tousen just played along.

    The plan was completed. There was no longer a reason to fight. Aizen knew his escape was guaranteed.





    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    He isn't capable to fight with his hands grabbing a sheathed sword immobilized or a sword pointed at his neck and another 8 captains around him. He had nowhere to go so the Menos had to bail him out. He's strong but not omnipotent. And his hand also got caught in Hitsugaya's ice later, so it's not like it's impossible to buy a few seconds against him.
    If Aizen thought he could get endangered (even after revealing himself to Unohana) he would have use KS to fool everyone into thinking he was somewhere else. He didn't!! He later on in a fight blitz Soifon, Shunsui, Shinji & Toshiro all at the same time.

    ---------- Post added at 02:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:24 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    She was rusty, yet she still was able to outmaneuver Byakuya, not just for dodging that one attack, but in the end she mocked him to chase her, knowing that he couldn't. So back to Soi fon, if Yoruichi was faster than him, and Soi fon was able to blitz her, than I can easily say that she can also blitz Byakuya or any captain around Byakuya's level. At Yoruichi prime, she could be on par with Yama or Aizen, but at that point, than I'll give her 8.5, Byakuya 8.
    She used an escape tech to escape Byakuya. She never outmanoeuvred. In fact these pages calls her out on her bluff inregards to the chase http://www.mangapanda.com/94-573-20/...apter-119.html
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-574-6/b...apter-120.html
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-574-8/b...apter-120.html

    And this pages shows how much Byakuya really cared about her statement (he cared not) http://www.mangapanda.com/94-573-5/b...apter-119.html http://www.mangapanda.com/94-573-6/b...apter-119.html

  6. #561
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    I read your whole post, and if you don't mind, I'd try adding my own opinion by using yours as a base to counter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Don't be ridiculous, Zommori is certainly not the fastest espada.
    He had the fastest sonido. His speed followed by Byakuya.
    He never even caught Byakuya once until Zommori used Byakuya's comrades as pawns. He was completely outmatched by Byakuya.
    Also the use of afterimages in this manga does not connote who is the fastest in Bleach.
    IIRC Stark never used any yet he's much faster than Zommori
    To be fair, in order to be able to say it, you'll have to prove that Kyouraku is faster than Byakuya.
    Nothing related to such comparison was included, as far as I know. So, isn't it just speculation that Starkk is faster than Zommari?
    I'd love to take a look at your reference for this, if you have (=

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    He has Hirenkyaku which was said to be superior to shunpo. He blitz Yama with it too.
    I'm certain Ryuken is also much fast. Quincies are fast. Isshida has vollstandig.
    And Arrancar said Sonido was superior to shunpo. Everybody says their respective technique is the best out there, yet, I believe it's only the user that really matters, nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Stark is faster than Shunsui
    I don't think we can prove this one way or another.
    It's just my feeling, though. I'd say they looked pretty evenly matched in the initial stages of the battle when they first clashed swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Nothing to go by? How about Logic then? For one you have nothing to say otherwise & also these are TOP tier characters of the highest lvl. Juha Bach(the main villain who is also a quincy), Ryuken(the last quincy), Haschwald are TOP tier (quincies have superior shunpo tech).
    Nothing about Ryuken is revealed. It really is nothing to go by. Him being the last quincy is just a honorable mention for now.
    Bach showed his speed, I do agree.
    Haschwald? No. Because a character is top tier doesn't automatically mean he's faster than Soifon.
    I'm not questioning Haschwald's power level. He proved his capabilities by breaking Ichigo's bankai, but still, I can't see how that does ever make him fast or at the very least faster than Soifon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Speed isn't the only skill of an assassin.
    That's right. Speed is an assassin's forte. But sneakiness plays a role, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    LOL. You must have missed how nonchalantly Aizen behaved in all of that scene. He even smiled. In fact why talk about this scene when he later on proved that he could blitz Soifon, Shunsui, Shinji & Toshiro AT THE SAME TIME so you cannot be serious about that scene. You just can't!!
    Between the incidents at Sogyoku and the FKT battle, Aizen's fusion with Hogyoku already got underway. In fact, those battles were what triggered the process to get faster and make him into Chrysalis stage more quickly.
    So, I tend to think that Aizen who began fusing with Hogyoku is superior to Aizen at Sogyoku, so, I wouldn't compare this two scenes, to be honest.

  7. #562
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795;3173764

    She used an escape tech to escape Byakuya. She never outmanoeuvred. In fact these pages calls her out on her bluff inregards to the chase [url
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-573-20/bleach/chapter-119.html[/url]
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-574-6/b...apter-120.html
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-574-8/b...apter-120.html

    And this pages shows how much Byakuya really cared about her statement (he cared not) http://www.mangapanda.com/94-573-5/b...apter-119.html http://www.mangapanda.com/94-573-6/b...apter-119.html
    Hmm, isn't the escape tech one of her invented technique???? Using it is considered irrelevant in s speed fight?? How ridiculous.

    I haven't response to your point of the carrying Ichigo and his Zan is not relevant. Bleach is a manga, but it doesn't mean that it defies basic law of physics. When you drop something in bleach, gravity will pulls it down like everything else. The more heavy you are, the harder it is for you to defies gravity. Does it ever occur to you that big chars like Yammi, Omaeda, Kommamura are not that fast compared to small char?? A zanpaktou, no matter how big it is can be wield easily by the Owner (Except for bankais) because it is a part of his/her soul. However, when being carried by someone else, that's a difference story. Bleach uses reiatsu to fight, true. But carrying someone on your back while running has nothing to do with reiatsu battles, it's just plain strength. Having something heavy attached to you diminished your speed, this can also be justified by this page: http://www.mangapanda.com/94-7110-19...apter-360.html, http://www.mangapanda.com/94-7110-20...apter-360.html. That's pretty much sums it up, Soi fon > Yoruichi+Ichigo & zangetsu > Byakuya.

    The pages you've shown about no one could defeat Byakuya at that time was pretty much irrelevant to. First, it doesn't say anything about speed comparison, Yoruichi has no zanpaktou, but Byakuya has a bankai, so obviously it would have been very hard for her to fight him while still protecting Ichigo and the others. But that doesn't say that she is slower than him. In addition, she has no ground to say that no one could defeat Byakuya because she haven't seen him in 100 years, her knowledge about his power is outdated.

    Furthurmore, Byakuya is a proud guy, when he realize that he can't chase Yoruichi, will he say to Ukitake that: "I can't catch her"? Lol the phrase: "I lost my interest" was just to hide his shame for not being able to catch up with her despite 100 years of training.
    Last edited by River_Capulet; November 24, 2012 at 11:21 PM.

  8. #563
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Soifon is an emotional character who makes her emotions very apparent. I.e at the funeral of Yama (a father figure to her),
    she behaved unprofessional & rudely by letting her emotions overwhelm her.
    A scout arrived just to bring more bad news. He even hesitated before speaking because he knew what he was about to say was a very assholish thing to do. You don't go to a funeral of a family man and say to the friends and relatives that their son is in a grave condition and that he will probably die. Soifon had a point by telling him to shut up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Soifon's character in the resent chapter fit the role similar to that of a scapegoat perfectly to ask the Zero Squad directly without hesitation why they sit
    "idly by" during the massacre of SS.
    Soifon is also a character who wouldn't permit any form of injustice hence she was the perfect shapegoat for Kubo to use to finally confirm to the fans WHY,
    WHY & WHY they don't interfere even in the destruction.
    Missing the point big time. She asked them why they were there talking about rebuilding. Arriving after everything got destroyed claiming that they were there to help was bullshit, and Shunsui and Unohana knew about it too. They know that they are not there only because they are going to help. Shunsui asked their purpose with a very cold look. It was the entire focus of the chapter. The only difference between the more "mature" captains and Soifon was that she didn't know their authority to behave however they pleased, so she called them out on their bullshit. "Oh, hey, look, the ROYAL GUARD are here to HELP US! They are going to REBUILD Seireitei! Thank god. The only problem is that there are NO SHINIGAMI LEFT to live there anymore. Thank you Royal Guard, YOUR HELP IS SO APPRECIATED". It's obvious rebuilding Seireitei is the least of their concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    The answer was then confirmed by the Zero Squad's monk (who I assume is the leader) that they are specifically following orders "by the will of the soul King
    " (btw this was before Soifon's outrage).
    The answers to Soifon's question (rather outrage) was revealed before she even asked it, signifying just how, she as a captain is still very immature by letting her emotions of her take control.
    And how was she supposed to act? Just a reminder that the Royal Guard were behaving like clowns. The only reason Shunsui or Unohana didn't kick their assess for their behavior was because they knew of their level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    The Zero Squad (who obviously weren't there to waste time)
    Sure they are. They are wasting everybody's time and getting away with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    So you saying "It was displayed to show Soifon's maturity lvl as a captain & more importantly, it was used confirm to the fans (finally) why the zero squads sit back & watched when SS gets trashed." is not the reason is OBVIOUSLY INCCORECT because that was the reason.
    Except, you know, Shunsui and Unohana are in the same situation as her. This chapter was meant to underline that the Royal Guard have very different concerns than the Gotei's, and not just protecting the King.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Don't be ridiculous, Zommori is certainly not the fastest espada.
    He had the fastest sonido. His speed followed by Byakuya.
    He never even caught Byakuya once until Zommori used Byakuya's comrades as pawns. He was completely outmatched by Byakuya.
    Also the use of afterimages in this manga does not connote who is the fastest in Bleach.
    IIRC Stark never used any yet he's much faster than Zommori
    Context. Zommari introduced himself, and Byakuya answered arrogantly that he was not worthy to know his name. That and combined with his hatred towards the Shinigami and their sense of superiority over everybody else made him want to crush Byakuya's proud ass. At no point did he have any trouble outrunning Byakuya, and even allowed him to hit his clones just to push his arrogant words back inside his throat. Then next chapter he released.

    And then you are saying that Starrk is much faster, even though the only true example of speed was when he kidnapped Inoue. Zommari proved that he was faster than Byakuya. Now it's Starrk's turn to prove he's faster than the fastest Espada.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Again don't be ridiculous. Aizen not only taught the leasons of an assasin (inplying he has the quilities of one), he examplified his speed by blitzing SOIFON, Toshiro, Shinji & Shunsui all at the same time in an instant.
    He just mentioned his past role as an instructor at the academy, where they would teach a little bit of everything.
    And he just didn't blitz them. He used Hinamori and Hitsugaya's blind rage to distract them for a second before cutting them down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Isshin is all about combat. He himself said his Zanpakuto is similar to Ichigo's Zan & to prove his worth, he fought equally with Aizen (in fact it seems he was winning).
    That was more of a taunt than anything. And if you want to assume Isshin is faster than Soifon, you must also assume Aizen is faster than Soifon, which has never been proven to be the case. Just because they are insanely strong doesn't mean that they are also insanely fast. Actually, Aizen has never shown any extreme speed. He usually used Kyoka Suigetsu to sneak behind his opponents' backs. That time he toyed with Ichigo doesn't count as his resolve was on the verge of hitting rock bottom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    I'm sure Ichigo (as of resent) is faster than Soifon without bankai. He matched Byakuya in SS arc & he's much better now.
    He's one of the few characters I can put my life on to say he's faster. Which is an understatement because Ichigo is basically a god.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Juha Bach will oneshot 5 Soifons Aizen style with speed lol. I can't believe you just questioned that one.
    And how fast is he exactly? He's shown impressive power, but not speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    He has Hirenkyaku which was said to be superior to shunpo. He blitz Yama with it too.
    I'm certain Ryuken is also much fast. Quincies are fast. Isshida has vollstandig.
    The Quincy consider themselves superior to everybody else, and the same applies to Shinigami, Hollow and Fullbringers. The only difference between their speed jumps are the sound they make. And just because Ryuken is hyped to be strong doesn't mean he's fast. Uryuu doesn't have Vollstandig.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Yoruichi was rusty, nuff said.
    She said that while laughing to herself because she got tired after carrying Ichigo for over a hundred Shunpo steps. She also said that carrying something slows her down. And she was also capable of taking on two of the fastest captains. If she was "rusty" then, I wonder how good she was at her "peak". At her peak a hundred years ago when Soifon was doing especial missions side by side with Yoruichi and where they considered each others as friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Yama is a master of the shinigami arts like Aizen is. Speed ain't no problem for him. He blitz WW & punched his gut out of existance.
    Yama also praised Shunsui for taking Nanao to a save distance in a single leap (Shunsui demonstated a very high speed shunpo
    Mastering something doesn't mean becoming the very best at it. Both Aizen and Yamamoto were shown to be extremely capable combatants, but they were never shown to be better at something than specialists. And someone of them praising somebody else doesn't mean they are also the fastest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Ulquiorra maybe? How Insulting!!
    Stark is faster than Shunsui
    Ulquiorra was a very special case since he fully realized his existence as a Hollow. Se he 'probably' may have been the fastest right behind ButterflAizen and Dangai Ichigo.
    Starrk was way faster than Shunsui but there's nothing to prove Shunsui is even that fast. Actually, he's never been shown to be much faster than the other captains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Nothing to go by? How about Logic then? For one you have nothing to say otherwise & also these are TOP tier characters of the highest lvl. Juha Bach(the main villain who is also a quincy), Ryuken(the last quincy), Haschwald are TOP tier (quincies have superior shunpo tech).
    So just because they are top tier characters means that they are also extremely fast? That's not really anything to go by. Out of those three, Bach is the only one who's done anything remotely resembling speed, which was getting behind Ichigo, and Ichigo didn't really have any trouble at all reacting, it was his physical strength and his tendency to grab by the hair and balls that gave him trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    He played Shunsui in speed who Yama praised in speed & who kept up with Stark. We haven't been given a reason to think Soifon is faster. I already said she is a master assassin thus has the skills of one. Speed isn't the only skill of an assassin.
    You got it backwards. Soifon was been shown to be extremely fast. Shunsui hasn't. If you want to say he's faster, you'll need proof first, which doesn't exist. Keeping up with Starrk is not because Starrk never got serious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    She was lying? Prove it!!
    I can prove she was telling the truth.
    I can prove she wasn't serious when she said she got rusty, and I can also prove that even after getting "rusty" she was still extremely fast and lost regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    LOL. You must have missed how nonchalantly Aizen behaved in all of that scene. He even smiled. In fact why talk about this scene when he later on proved that he could blitz Soifon, Shunsui, Shinji & Toshiro AT THE SAME TIME so you cannot be serious about that scene. You just can't!!
    He used a distraction to blitz them. And he's always very careful to not leave any opening. He was restrained with his hand grabbing a sheathed Zanpakutou and a sword at his neck. Kubo purposefully used Soifon and Yoruichi to catch him with his pants down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    The plan was completed. There was no longer a reason to fight. Aizen knew his escape was guaranteed.
    And he was also smart enough to not get himself killed. He was completely powerless there, and even more after all the captains arrived. That was one of the few times where he wasn't in control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    If Aizen thought he could get endangered (even after revealing himself to Unohana) he would have use KS to fool everyone into thinking he was somewhere else. He didn't!! He later on in a fight blitz Soifon, Shunsui, Shinji & Toshiro all at the same time.
    With a distraction. All that was left was to beat down a half dead Ichigo and Renji and extract the Hogyoku. Kyoka Suigetsu wasn't necessary.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  9. #564
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I read your whole post, and if you don't mind, I'd try adding my own opinion by using yours as a base to counter.



    To be fair, in order to be able to say it, you'll have to prove that Kyouraku is faster than Byakuya.
    Nothing related to such comparison was included, as far as I know. So, isn't it just speculation that Starkk is faster than Zommari?
    I'd love to take a look at your reference for this, if you have (=
    Again Zommari is probably the most profitable sonido user but he hasn't demonstrated the speed to call him the fastest. Non whatsoever. He was also completely matched by Byakuya who tbh isn't the most impressive captain in speed either. Zommari did nothing to prove he was all that in speed (almost every chracter can create clones even the ViceCaptains). Unreleased Stark is faster than Zommari yet Shunsui matched him & matched his release form to an extent.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    And Arrancar said Sonido was superior to shunpo. Everybody says their respective technique is the best out there, yet, I believe it's only the user that really matters, nothing else.
    Ok, the users of the steps is what matters but there is no delying that hirenkyaku is a more advance technique. It is superior. I said nothing about it being faster (but it probably is considering how it works). Hirenkyaku works by riding on the flow of reishi created below the feet.





    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I don't think we can prove this one way or another.
    It's just my feeling, though. I'd say they looked pretty evenly matched in the initial stages of the battle when they first clashed swords.
    Stark has escaped Shunsui multiple times when shunsui was serious on cutting him down. In one of these occasions, Stark wasn't even focused on Shunsui, he was focused on his Gun by arguing with her yet when Shunsui blindsighted Stark (using his hat to obstruct Stark's vision) & used full speed, he still couldn't catch Stark. When Shunsui had Ukitake to assist him in the battle, Stark was still speeding around & figuring out techniques that even Utikate was surprised by the speed he was able to perceive his shikai tech.
    He no doubt proved he was faster than Shunsui not just foot speed but reaction too.




    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Nothing about Ryuken is revealed. It really is nothing to go by. Him being the last quincy is just a honorable mention for now.
    Bach showed his speed, I do agree.
    Haschwald? No. Because a character is top tier doesn't automatically mean he's faster than Soifon.
    I'm not questioning Haschwald's power level. He proved his capabilities by breaking Ichigo's bankai, but still, I can't see how that does ever make him fast or at the very least faster than Soifon?
    I say what I think is logical. Soifon is a fast shinigami in SS but we have absolutely no reason to believe she was the fastest in SS. Her fight against Yoruichi certainly didn't prove anything considering how the word rusty hasn't been more emphasize in this manga in regards to her at that time. Multiple chapters, on multiple pages by various characters, Yoruichi had been said to be very rusty. She even said "I've gotten alot weaker".
    Yoruichi at that point (atleast without using her enhanced abilities) wasn't who you would call a competent captain level fighter at all.
    I mean she was outright blitz by Soifon without her being able to percieve what was going one. If characters don't have speed, they'll have tip top reaction (i.e Kenpachi). Yourichi couldn't react whatsoever. Soifon can not hope to do this to anyone the gotei 13 captains. Never!! She is not capable of killing them in just under a second with pure speed. Come on, she fast but not that fast. She's not Ichigo.




    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    That's right. Speed is an assassin's forte. But sneakiness plays a role, as well.
    One has to understand that assassins are not fighters. They are specialist who fight indirectly using the assasination techs (this is why Aizen said to Soifon when she directly confronted him "Have you gone mad?"). Speed is the most important but what kind speed are we talking about here? Foot speed? Nah! It's the speed in which a plan is executed (I said Soifon was the best at doing her job for this reason before). What I am talking about is foot speed not the assasination mastery. In this regard Soifon is not the fastest in SS, Yama is.




    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Between the incidents at Sogyoku and the FKT battle, Aizen's fusion with Hogyoku already got underway. In fact, those battles were what triggered the process to get faster and make him into Chrysalis stage more quickly.
    So, I tend to think that Aizen who began fusing with Hogyoku is superior to Aizen at Sogyoku, so, I wouldn't compare this two scenes, to be honest.
    Aizen already made it clear that the Hogyoku didn't start it's magic until it accepted his will & the hogyoku accepted Aizen's will at the end of the battle between Aizen vs Isshin. Only then did the hogyoku start its magic. Before the Isshin vs Aizen abbtle, it was all Aizen.

    ---------- Post added at 07:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    Hmm, isn't the escape tech one of her invented technique???? Using it is considered irrelevant in s speed fight?? How ridiculous.

    I haven't response to your point of the carrying Ichigo and his Zan is not relevant. Bleach is a manga, but it doesn't mean that it defies basic law of physics. When you drop something in bleach, gravity will pulls it down like everything else. The more heavy you are, the harder it is for you to defies gravity. Does it ever occur to you that big chars like Yammi, Omaeda, Kommamura are not that fast compared to small char?? A zanpaktou, no matter how big it is can be wield easily by the Owner (Except for bankais) because it is a part of his/her soul. However, when being carried by someone else, that's a difference story. Bleach uses reiatsu to fight, true. But carrying someone on your back while running has nothing to do with reiatsu battles, it's just plain strength. Having something heavy attached to you diminished your speed, this can also be justified by this page: http://www.mangapanda.com/94-7110-19...apter-360.html, http://www.mangapanda.com/94-7110-20...apter-360.html. That's pretty much sums it up, Soi fon > Yoruichi+Ichigo & zangetsu > Byakuya.

    The pages you've shown about no one could defeat Byakuya at that time was pretty much irrelevant to. First, it doesn't say anything about speed comparison, Yoruichi has no zanpaktou, but Byakuya has a bankai, so obviously it would have been very hard for her to fight him while still protecting Ichigo and the others. But that doesn't say that she is slower than him. In addition, she has no ground to say that no one could defeat Byakuya because she haven't seen him in 100 years, her knowledge about his power is outdated.

    Furthurmore, Byakuya is a proud guy, when he realize that he can't chase Yoruichi, will he say to Ukitake that: "I can't catch her"? Lol the phrase: "I lost my interest" was just to hide his shame for not being able to catch up with her despite 100 years of training.
    Yes a zanpakuto is weightless in the hands of it's user but in the hands of another person, the zanpakuto will slow that person down due to gravity. Ichigo's zanpakuto's weight (in shikai) is light. A human can lift it without the sightest difficulty. Ichigo weights much more than his zanpakuto yet we never see Yoruichi or Byakuya makin excuses about the weight so why should we?

    You last statement is your own interpretation. I can easily say Byakuya's character isn't going to permit him to play a game to cat & mouse, he is too proud for that.
    This page http://www.mangapanda.com/94-573-20/...apter-119.html is convincing enough to say Yoruichi had gotten much weaker than she herself initially suspected, so we have no way of finding out how a game of cat & mouse would have turned out.

    ---------- Post added at 08:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    A scout arrived just to bring more bad news. He even hesitated before speaking because he knew what he was about to say was a very assholish thing to do. You don't go to a funeral of a family man and say to the friends and relatives that their son is in a grave condition and that he will probably die. Soifon had a point by telling him to shut up.



    Missing the point big time. She asked them why they were there talking about rebuilding. Arriving after everything got destroyed claiming that they were there to help was bullshit, and Shunsui and Unohana knew about it too. They know that they are not there only because they are going to help. Shunsui asked their purpose with a very cold look. It was the entire focus of the chapter. The only difference between the more "mature" captains and Soifon was that she didn't know their authority to behave however they pleased, so she called them out on their bullshit. "Oh, hey, look, the ROYAL GUARD are here to HELP US! They are going to REBUILD Seireitei! Thank god. The only problem is that there are NO SHINIGAMI LEFT to live there anymore. Thank you Royal Guard, YOUR HELP IS SO APPRECIATED". It's obvious rebuilding Seireitei is the least of their concern.



    And how was she supposed to act? Just a reminder that the Royal Guard were behaving like clowns. The only reason Shunsui or Unohana didn't kick their assess for their behavior was because they knew of their level.



    Sure they are. They are wasting everybody's time and getting away with it.



    Except, you know, Shunsui and Unohana are in the same situation as her. This chapter was meant to underline that the Royal Guard have very different concerns than the Gotei's, and not just protecting the King.



    Context. Zommari introduced himself, and Byakuya answered arrogantly that he was not worthy to know his name. That and combined with his hatred towards the Shinigami and their sense of superiority over everybody else made him want to crush Byakuya's proud ass. At no point did he have any trouble outrunning Byakuya, and even allowed him to hit his clones just to push his arrogant words back inside his throat. Then next chapter he released.

    And then you are saying that Starrk is much faster, even though the only true example of speed was when he kidnapped Inoue. Zommari proved that he was faster than Byakuya. Now it's Starrk's turn to prove he's faster than the fastest Espada.



    He just mentioned his past role as an instructor at the academy, where they would teach a little bit of everything.
    And he just didn't blitz them. He used Hinamori and Hitsugaya's blind rage to distract them for a second before cutting them down.



    That was more of a taunt than anything. And if you want to assume Isshin is faster than Soifon, you must also assume Aizen is faster than Soifon, which has never been proven to be the case. Just because they are insanely strong doesn't mean that they are also insanely fast. Actually, Aizen has never shown any extreme speed. He usually used Kyoka Suigetsu to sneak behind his opponents' backs. That time he toyed with Ichigo doesn't count as his resolve was on the verge of hitting rock bottom.



    He's one of the few characters I can put my life on to say he's faster. Which is an understatement because Ichigo is basically a god.



    And how fast is he exactly? He's shown impressive power, but not speed.



    The Quincy consider themselves superior to everybody else, and the same applies to Shinigami, Hollow and Fullbringers. The only difference between their speed jumps are the sound they make. And just because Ryuken is hyped to be strong doesn't mean he's fast. Uryuu doesn't have Vollstandig.



    She said that while laughing to herself because she got tired after carrying Ichigo for over a hundred Shunpo steps. She also said that carrying something slows her down. And she was also capable of taking on two of the fastest captains. If she was "rusty" then, I wonder how good she was at her "peak". At her peak a hundred years ago when Soifon was doing especial missions side by side with Yoruichi and where they considered each others as friends.



    Mastering something doesn't mean becoming the very best at it. Both Aizen and Yamamoto were shown to be extremely capable combatants, but they were never shown to be better at something than specialists. And someone of them praising somebody else doesn't mean they are also the fastest.



    Ulquiorra was a very special case since he fully realized his existence as a Hollow. Se he 'probably' may have been the fastest right behind ButterflAizen and Dangai Ichigo.
    Starrk was way faster than Shunsui but there's nothing to prove Shunsui is even that fast. Actually, he's never been shown to be much faster than the other captains.



    So just because they are top tier characters means that they are also extremely fast? That's not really anything to go by. Out of those three, Bach is the only one who's done anything remotely resembling speed, which was getting behind Ichigo, and Ichigo didn't really have any trouble at all reacting, it was his physical strength and his tendency to grab by the hair and balls that gave him trouble.



    You got it backwards. Soifon was been shown to be extremely fast. Shunsui hasn't. If you want to say he's faster, you'll need proof first, which doesn't exist. Keeping up with Starrk is not because Starrk never got serious.



    I can prove she wasn't serious when she said she got rusty, and I can also prove that even after getting "rusty" she was still extremely fast and lost regardless.



    He used a distraction to blitz them. And he's always very careful to not leave any opening. He was restrained with his hand grabbing a sheathed Zanpakutou and a sword at his neck. Kubo purposefully used Soifon and Yoruichi to catch him with his pants down.



    And he was also smart enough to not get himself killed. He was completely powerless there, and even more after all the captains arrived. That was one of the few times where he wasn't in control.



    With a distraction. All that was left was to beat down a half dead Ichigo and Renji and extract the Hogyoku. Kyoka Suigetsu wasn't necessary.
    Soifon's outrage is not acceptable for her position. Kensei pointed it out that she looked pitiful & she rudely reacted by saying Kensei much have loved the fact that Yama died. That behaviour is uncalled for. A messenger who is probably feeling the same emotions as everyone else is simply doing HIS job as a messenger & reporting the status of Byakuya & Kenpachi. She yelled at him to GTFO. You want me to believe that taking your anger out on others is acceptable? No it's not!! Komamura set her straight that she IS NOT the only person who wants to scream (which is true). Even after Shunsui intervene to calm the situation which Soifon started, she still call him a bastard. So again she is unprofessional & immature. No use beating a dead horse on that point.

    The zero squad are likely very shady (that's atleast what Kubo wants us to think since the Aizen vs Ichigo battle ended), however they were given specific intructions from the soul king to rebuild Gotei 13. They didn't waste anytime in there mission. Shutara already grabbed Byakuya, Renji, Rukai & Tensa Zangetsu in seconds. The monk guy broke up the fight between Soifon & Kuwabara because they have a task to complete. They didn't come to waste time. They came to rebuild SS & in the proccess set them straight as a result of SS incompetence. It's not their job to protect SS, Soifon wants to make it their job THAT'S THE POINT.

    Aizen didn't use KS against the 4 captains when he blitz them, he just blitz them. Sure Toshiro was mad but that didn't stop the concentration of all the captains, they were just worried about Toshiro's outrage. Aizen still blitz them.

  10. #565
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Again Zommari is probably the most profitable sonido user but he hasn't demonstrated the speed to call him the fastest. Non whatsoever. He was also completely matched by Byakuya who tbh isn't the most impressive captain in speed either. Zommari did nothing to prove he was all that in speed (almost every chracter can create clones even the ViceCaptains). Unreleased Stark is faster than Zommari yet Shunsui matched him & matched his release form to an extent.
    I got your point.
    But saying Byakuya's speed amongst the captains isn't impressive is a hollow statement. So far, Byakuya has only got into three speed battles. One with Yoruichi and he gained the upper hand so that Yoruichi needed to use Molting Cicada to get away. Second is with Ichigo, where at that time they looked about even for the most part, especially before Ichigo's inner hollow interfered. Yet, Ichigo isn't a captain, so, he's irrelevant. And the third one was Zommari.
    These are Byakuya's speed battles and he didn't have any against the other captains, as far as I can remember.
    Stating his rank in terms of speed shouldn't be this easy.
    Again, I don't understand how you can say unreleased Starkk was faster or slower. It may well be your own perception from watching the anime.
    To me, Ulquiorra in the second stage of his release looked faster than any other Arrancar, but it's just an illusionary view of point to go with, I believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Ok, the users of the steps is what matters but there is no delying that hirenkyaku is a more advance technique. It is superior. I said nothing about it being faster (but it probably is considering how it works). Hirenkyaku works by riding on the flow of reishi created below the feet.
    Fair enough. Flow of reishi may indeed be superior to a bodily technique.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Stark has escaped Shunsui multiple times when shunsui was serious on cutting him down. In one of these occasions, Stark wasn't even focused on Shunsui, he was focused on his Gun by arguing with her yet when Shunsui blindsighted Stark (using his hat to obstruct Stark's vision) & used full speed, he still couldn't catch Stark. When Shunsui had Ukitake to assist him in the battle, Stark was still speeding around & figuring out techniques that even Utikate was surprised by the speed he was able to perceive his shikai tech.
    He no doubt proved he was faster than Shunsui not just foot speed but reaction too.
    If you have good reactions, you don't have to be overwhelmingly faster than your opponent to escape an attack. That's my point of view, at least.
    In my opinion, Starkk was evenly matched with Kyouraku. He was good enough to counter his opponents' attacks, but at which point he blitzed Kyouraku on an attack so that we refer to him as the faster out of two.
    I don't think dodging an attack simply makes you the faster one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    I say what I think is logical. Soifon is a fast shinigami in SS but we have absolutely no reason to believe she was the fastest in SS. Her fight against Yoruichi certainly didn't prove anything considering how the word rusty hasn't been more emphasize in this manga in regards to her at that time. Multiple chapters, on multiple pages by various characters, Yoruichi had been said to be very rusty. She even said "I've gotten alot weaker".
    Yoruichi at that point (atleast without using her enhanced abilities) wasn't who you would call a competent captain level fighter at all.
    I mean she was outright blitz by Soifon without her being able to percieve what was going one. If characters don't have speed, they'll have tip top reaction (i.e Kenpachi). Yourichi couldn't react whatsoever. Soifon can not hope to do this to anyone the gotei 13 captains. Never!! She is not capable of killing them in just under a second with pure speed. Come on, she fast but not that fast. She's not Ichigo.
    I believe only fractions would count when comparing the speeds of two captain-level Shinigami. I don't think Soifon can one-shot any other captain as you suggest. However, there is no reason for us to think she isn't the fastest, either. One-shotting? No. It's a completely different thing. It takes a massive amount of difference in terms of speed to one-shot your opponent and I agree, Soifon doesn't have such a huge advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    One has to understand that assassins are not fighters. They are specialist who fight indirectly using the assasination techs (this is why Aizen said to Soifon when she directly confronted him "Have you gone mad?"). Speed is the most important but what kind speed are we talking about here? Foot speed? Nah! It's the speed in which a plan is executed (I said Soifon was the best at doing her job for this reason before). What I am talking about is foot speed not the assasination mastery. In this regard Soifon is not the fastest in SS, Yama is.
    Although we haven't been properly given an instance of it, Captain-Commander has out-shunpoed Kyouraku and Ukitake, who, at the very least, should be around Soifon's level, so that they won't be get blitzed by assumption.

    So, that makes Captain-Commander faster than Soifon, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Aizen already made it clear that the Hogyoku didn't start it's magic until it accepted his will & the hogyoku accepted Aizen's will at the end of the battle between Aizen vs Isshin. Only then did the hogyoku start its magic. Before the Isshin vs Aizen abbtle, it was all Aizen.
    I thought he meant the Chrysalis stage there, but never mind, I will go with your words here. That's as plausible as evidence can get on a vague discussion.

  11. #566
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Again Zommari is probably the most profitable sonido user but he hasn't demonstrated the speed to call him the fastest. Non whatsoever.
    So moving fast is not speed? He moved so fast he could create 5 clones that could attack simultaneously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    He was also completely matched by Byakuya who tbh isn't the most impressive captain in speed either.
    No. Byakuya didn't even come close. Zommari was just showing his superior speed, and outclassed Byakuya, who is also a very proficient Shunpo user.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Zommari did nothing to prove he was all that in speed
    He moved so fast he could attack five times in the same instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    (almost every chracter can create clones even the ViceCaptains).
    No, they can't. You are making things up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Unreleased Stark is faster than Zommari
    I would like to know where you are getting this from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    yet Shunsui matched him & matched his release form to an extent.
    Shunsui didn't match him. He was inferior in every possible way unless you consider cheating as part of his combat skills. And Starrk never got serious. His intention wasn't to fight or kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Ok, the users of the steps is what matters but there is no delying that hirenkyaku is a more advance technique. It is superior. I said nothing about it being faster (but it probably is considering how it works). Hirenkyaku works by riding on the flow of reishi created below the feet.
    And Shinigami/Hollows can make the reishi solidify under their feet to move too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    I say what I think is logical.
    There's no "logical" in your logic. You place characters higher no matter what.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Soifon is a fast shinigami in SS but we have absolutely no reason to believe she was the fastest in SS.
    "Absolutely no reason" I'll combat your negative reason with reason.
    No other captain has moved as fast as her. Whenever she's onscreen the words "fast as fuck" hover around her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Her fight against Yoruichi certainly didn't prove anything considering how the word rusty hasn't been more emphasize in this manga in regards to her at that time. Multiple chapters, on multiple pages by various characters, Yoruichi had been said to be very rusty. She even said "I've gotten alot weaker".
    "Emphasized"? She said "Ahahaha, I got tired after only a few hundred Shunpo steps while carrying a person across half of Seireitei. I've sure have gotten rusty hahaha". And that's it. She was still many times faster than other characters and could even keep up with Soifon, a specialist who a hundred years in the past was already exceptional among the 2nd Division. What she said about losing against Byakuya would happen once he released. Not even Ichigo could escape Senbonsakura after Byakuya got serious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Yoruichi at that point (atleast without using her enhanced abilities) wasn't who you would call a competent captain level fighter at all.
    I think you missed the part where she fought Soifon for a while. If she was losing, was because she wasn't as good. Soifon was so pained by her sudden disappearance that she trained to be able to return the humiliation. So it's not as much as Yoruichi getting weaker, Soifon had a hundred years to surpass her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    I mean she was outright blitz by Soifon without her being able to percieve what was going one. If characters don't have speed, they'll have tip top reaction (i.e Kenpachi).
    Isshin, who was keeping up with Aizen couldn't perceive him after the transformation, and the reason is simple: Aizen was much faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Soifon can not hope to do this to anyone the gotei 13 captains. Never!! She is not capable of killing them in just under a second with pure speed. Come on, she fast but not that fast. She's not Ichigo.
    She can. But no, she isn't Ichigo. Nobody is Ichigo. Point null.

    But since you keep going about Yoruichi being rusty and all that, how about this. Soifon was able to create these many clones despite losing her arm being out of reiatsu, out of breathe and literally fainting from exhaustion. And ever since that point until her last appearance that arc, she was sweating profusely. Unlike Yoruichi who only said she had gotten weaker by exaggerating and laughing to herself. Once.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    One has to understand that assassins are not fighters. They are specialist who fight indirectly using the assasination techs (this is why Aizen said to Soifon when she directly confronted him "Have you gone mad?").
    And yet she's also a hand to hand specialist. She can fight and use Kido if the situation calls for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    What I am talking about is foot speed not the assasination mastery. In this regard Soifon is not the fastest in SS, Yama is.
    Yamamoto's movements were always firm but slow. He relied more on brute force than proper combat discipline.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Yes a zanpakuto is weightless in the hands of it's user but in the hands of another person, the zanpakuto will slow that person down due to gravity. Ichigo's zanpakuto's weight (in shikai) is light. A human can lift it without the sightest difficulty. Ichigo weights much more than his zanpakuto yet we never see Yoruichi or Byakuya makin excuses about the weight so why should we?
    Yoruichi said that she wouldn't be able to outrun Byakuya if she was carrying more than one person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    This page http://www.mangapanda.com/94-573-20/...apter-119.html is convincing enough to say Yoruichi had gotten much weaker than she herself initially suspected, so we have no way of finding out how a game of cat & mouse would have turned out.
    Byakuya wasn't a match then, he wouldn't be a match now.

    ---------- Post added at 03:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Soifon's outrage is not acceptable for her position.
    And for some reason Yamamoto's outrage and Shunsui's multiple freakouts are, right? I guess they get a pass because they have a slightly better battle record. It's like you don't want characters to feel emotion. If they don't care, then I don't have a reason to care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Kensei pointed it out that she looked pitiful & she rudely reacted by saying Kensei much have loved the fact that Yama died. That behaviour is uncalled for. A messenger who is probably feeling the same emotions as everyone else is simply doing HIS job as a messenger & reporting the status of Byakuya & Kenpachi. She yelled at him to GTFO. You want me to believe that taking your anger out on others is acceptable? No it's not!!
    Job or not, the messenger was asking for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Even after Shunsui intervene to calm the situation which Soifon started, she still call him a bastard.
    The point you missed was a full 180 degrees in the other direction. She called him a bastard after he said Yamamoto was rolling in his grave. That's even more rode than interrupting the mourning saying that more people are probably going to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    So again she is unprofessional & immature. No use beating a dead horse on that point.
    And again, Shunsui can get away with making jokes about Yamamoto because he has exactly one more victory than Soifon, but she can't call him out for saying that? Okay. Some logic right there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    however they were given specific intructions from the soul king to rebuild Gotei 13.
    Yes, to rebuild the Gotei after everybody was there. Which is complete bullshit. Shunsui also asked them angrily why they were there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    They didn't waste anytime in there mission.
    Yes they did. They made a ridiculous introduction for the hell of it, and proceeded to piss off Shinji, Unohana and Mayuri.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Shutara already grabbed Byakuya, Renji, Rukai & Tensa Zangetsu in seconds. The monk guy broke up the fight between Soifon & Kuwabara because they have a task to complete.
    The beard guy stopped the Pompadour guy to tell him they had things to do, when Shutara interrupted him. That doesn't make Pompadour's attitude any less of a waste of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    hey didn't come to waste time.
    So making fun of Unohana for all the deaths is not wasting time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    They came to rebuild SS & in the proccess set them straight as a result of SS incompetence.
    It's not incompetence if the opponents are better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Soifon wants to make it their job THAT'S THE POINT.
    The point she wanted to make was about them talking about rebuilding. Which Shunsui also knew it was bullshit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Aizen didn't use KS against the 4 captains when he blitz them, he just blitz them. Sure Toshiro was mad but that didn't stop the concentration of all the captains, they were just worried about Toshiro's outrage. Aizen still blitz them.
    Attacking an already near dead VC and another captain charging straight towards certain death DID break their concentration. "You are all open" - Aizen.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  12. #567
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    "Absolutely no reason" I'll combat your negative reason with reason.
    No other captain has moved as fast as her. Whenever she's onscreen the words "fast as fuck" hover around her.
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-46757-...apter-391.html

    Having Aizen commenting on your skills is enough to prove something right? Not to mention she did that after battling Vega + Barragan and firing 2 Bankais and exhausted herself. Those clones are even a "Spectacle" for a guy at Aizen's level.

    Ichigo's Zangetsu in shikai is light??? Have you ever tried to lift a real long sword?? http://www.palus.demon.co.uk/Sword_Stats.html The heaviest two handed blade listed here is 13 pounds (5.8 kg). It's dimension is only 53.4 inches x 2.1 inches (130x5 cm) Zangetsu is clearly much bigger, at least 3 times bigger. So I'd say that it weight at least 15kg (33 pounds), it is not light by any means.

    Yoruichi said that she got weaker, but that doesn't mean she's not at captain level. Why can't you just accept the fact that Byakuya was unable to catch her even though she is carrying an extra 80kg (175 pounds)

    Nobody complained about the weight?? Why didn't she save more people??
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-574-7/...apter-120.html

    Oh, and if you take so seriously how she said she've gotten a lot weaker, than you also should take it for serious that she said: "To be still able to OUTRUN Byakuya". She said that herself that she out-runned him, why is that so difficult to take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Aizen didn't use KS against the 4 captains when he blitz them, he just blitz them. Sure Toshiro was mad but that didn't stop the concentration of all the captains, they were just worried about Toshiro's outrage. Aizen still blitz them.
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-...apter-392.html look at their panic faces + Aizen's words. Why did you think he used Hinamori as a decoy?? He wanted to mess around with the captains' head in order to have them lose their calmness for him to strike.
    Last edited by River_Capulet; November 27, 2012 at 03:17 AM.

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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    So moving fast is not speed? He moved so fast he could create 5 clones that could attack simultaneously.



    No. Byakuya didn't even come close. Zommari was just showing his superior speed, and outclassed Byakuya, who is also a very proficient Shunpo user.



    He moved so fast he could attack five times in the same instance.



    No, they can't. You are making things up.



    I would like to know where you are getting this from.



    Shunsui didn't match him. He was inferior in every possible way unless you consider cheating as part of his combat skills. And Starrk never got serious. His intention wasn't to fight or kill.



    And Shinigami/Hollows can make the reishi solidify under their feet to move too.



    There's no "logical" in your logic. You place characters higher no matter what.



    "Absolutely no reason" I'll combat your negative reason with reason.
    No other captain has moved as fast as her. Whenever she's onscreen the words "fast as fuck" hover around her.



    "Emphasized"? She said "Ahahaha, I got tired after only a few hundred Shunpo steps while carrying a person across half of Seireitei. I've sure have gotten rusty hahaha". And that's it. She was still many times faster than other characters and could even keep up with Soifon, a specialist who a hundred years in the past was already exceptional among the 2nd Division. What she said about losing against Byakuya would happen once he released. Not even Ichigo could escape Senbonsakura after Byakuya got serious.



    I think you missed the part where she fought Soifon for a while. If she was losing, was because she wasn't as good. Soifon was so pained by her sudden disappearance that she trained to be able to return the humiliation. So it's not as much as Yoruichi getting weaker, Soifon had a hundred years to surpass her.



    Isshin, who was keeping up with Aizen couldn't perceive him after the transformation, and the reason is simple: Aizen was much faster.



    She can. But no, she isn't Ichigo. Nobody is Ichigo. Point null.

    But since you keep going about Yoruichi being rusty and all that, how about this. Soifon was able to create these many clones despite losing her arm being out of reiatsu, out of breathe and literally fainting from exhaustion. And ever since that point until her last appearance that arc, she was sweating profusely. Unlike Yoruichi who only said she had gotten weaker by exaggerating and laughing to herself. Once.



    And yet she's also a hand to hand specialist. She can fight and use Kido if the situation calls for it.



    Yamamoto's movements were always firm but slow. He relied more on brute force than proper combat discipline.



    Yoruichi said that she wouldn't be able to outrun Byakuya if she was carrying more than one person.



    Byakuya wasn't a match then, he wouldn't be a match now.

    ---------- Post added at 03:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:20 PM ----------



    And for some reason Yamamoto's outrage and Shunsui's multiple freakouts are, right? I guess they get a pass because they have a slightly better battle record. It's like you don't want characters to feel emotion. If they don't care, then I don't have a reason to care.



    Job or not, the messenger was asking for it.



    The point you missed was a full 180 degrees in the other direction. She called him a bastard after he said Yamamoto was rolling in his grave. That's even more rode than interrupting the mourning saying that more people are probably going to die.



    And again, Shunsui can get away with making jokes about Yamamoto because he has exactly one more victory than Soifon, but she can't call him out for saying that? Okay. Some logic right there.



    Yes, to rebuild the Gotei after everybody was there. Which is complete bullshit. Shunsui also asked them angrily why they were there.



    Yes they did. They made a ridiculous introduction for the hell of it, and proceeded to piss off Shinji, Unohana and Mayuri.



    The beard guy stopped the Pompadour guy to tell him they had things to do, when Shutara interrupted him. That doesn't make Pompadour's attitude any less of a waste of time.



    So making fun of Unohana for all the deaths is not wasting time?



    It's not incompetence if the opponents are better.



    The point she wanted to make was about them talking about rebuilding. Which Shunsui also knew it was bullshit.



    Attacking an already near dead VC and another captain charging straight towards certain death DID break their concentration. "You are all open" - Aizen.
    "An afterimage or ghost image is an optical illusion that refers to an image continuing to appear in one's vision after the exposure to the original image has ceased"
    Taking that into consideration every character in bleach (who aren't normal humans) can create afterimages. It's that simple.

    Zomomari's so called speed was matched by Byakuya. No once was Byakuya caught off guard as a result of his speed while Stark proved that speed is especially his forte as the prima espada.

    Initially Stark wasn't serious however he got serious after some time but his character doesn't permit him to rage seriousness like other characters, like Grimmjow for instance.

    Byakuya wasn't a match then, he wouldn't be a match now.
    Sure he wouldn't be a match now but before? Nah. In fact all you gotta do is prove this statement of yours.

    An outrageous behavior like that is never acceptable. It's uncalled for. I will never permit my emotions to take over & take my anger out on others. NEVER!
    What Soifon(considering her position) did is not professional thus proving my point about her immaturity. Tell me what she did to Tensei was acceptable?

    The royal guard (regardless of what their methods are) are there to do their Job. You don't run to others (who ain't part of your team) & beg for them to help you do your Job just "cause you couldn't do shit". Their Job doesn't concern SS fullstop. They came to rebuild & get out of there because their Job doesn't concern babysitting SS.

    Toshiro let his guard down & as a result he made his ally worry however to suggest they weren't keeping their eye on target is a preposterous thing to say. They were all keeping eye of target aka Aizen. So for Aizen to blitz them is a feat of speed.

    Also I say what I think is logical. Yama has proved that he can oneshot highly capable captain level fighters with speed. Fake Bach (though he had blut vene) was completely surprised by the speed Yama hit him. WW (the same character that took Utitake by surprise in speed & even Urahara) was completely blitzed by Yama's speed.
    3 sternritters did a sneak attack (no doubt full speed) & Yama (with his keen sense) was a able to react & burn them all.
    Another sternritter (the one that took chojiro's bankai) was also oneshotted by Yama's power & speed. ALL the fights Yama was involved in, he displayed incredible speed (yet no clones lol). Has Soifon done any of that against a competent captain lvl fighter before? IIRC the sternritter she fought is very much alive so....
    Yama proved that he has the ability to oneshot capable captain lvl fighters with speed (captain lvl fighters that seem to be making all the captains look like a joke btw). He could do this to Komamura & many of his captains. Do you think Soifon as a chance in hell to do that with speed? Do you think she can nonchalantly oneshot Komamura or any of the captains with speed?To what ridiculous extent will you overrate a character.
    She is an assassin so speed isn't her only specialty.

    Do you think Kuwabara looking Royal Guard can easily & nonchalantly blitz Yama or Aizen in the same manner that he did Soifon?

    & There we have it. That's what I meant by logical.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    "An afterimage or ghost image is an optical illusion that refers to an image continuing to appear in one's vision after the exposure to the original image has ceased"
    Taking that into consideration every character in bleach (who aren't normal humans) can create afterimages. It's that simple.
    Soifon didn't create a mere afterimage. Afterimages were what Yoruichi and Ichigo did. What both Soifon and Zommari did to create clones was jump between multiple spots with speed, back and forth, to create quasi clones. So what they both did was essentially create multiple versions of themselves by using pure speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Zomomari's so called speed was matched by Byakuya. No once was Byakuya caught off guard as a result of his speed while Stark proved that speed is especially his forte as the prima espada.
    Starrk proved to be the strongest normal Espada. But that doesn't make specially good at anything. His speed was great but nothing says his was the fastest. His Hierro was strong but nothing says it was as strong as Nnoitra's. His intellect was also great but nothing says it was as good as Szayels. Each Espada had something going for them that the rest knew about.
    No. Byakuya never once matched Zommari. He was attacking clones that Zommari made easy to targets. In speed it wasn't even a match.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Initially Stark wasn't serious however he got serious after some time but his character doesn't permit him to rage seriousness like other characters, like Grimmjow for instance.
    There is one time where he got serious, and that time he remained stationary while his wolves attacked for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Byakuya wasn't a match then, he wouldn't be a match now.
    Sure he wouldn't be a match now but before? Nah. In fact all you gotta do is prove this statement of yours.
    The so called "rusty Yoruichi" outran Byakuya while carrying Ichigo. If she had been "at her peak" she could have beaten Byakuya just like how Ichigo could have killed him right after going Bankai for the first time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    An outrageous behavior like that is never acceptable. It's uncalled for. I will never permit my emotions to take over & take my anger out on others. NEVER!
    What Soifon(considering her position) did is not professional thus proving my point about her immaturity. Tell me what she did to Tensei was acceptable?
    You are in no position to say that as you have never lost most of your subordinates, your superior and a war in a span of minutes. Everybody there was on the verge of breaking into tears, all that was needed to make them want to break something was somebody saying "Sup, more people are going to die.". Soifon has always been kind of volatile, and so is Kensei and Komamura so they reacted like that. But no other captain interfered because they were feeling the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    The royal guard (regardless of what their methods are) are there to do their Job. You don't run to others (who ain't part of your team) & beg for them to help you do your Job just "cause you couldn't do shit". Their Job doesn't concern SS fullstop. They came to rebuild & get out of there because their Job doesn't concern babysitting SS.
    What they are doing is basically paying the expenses of digging up a fallen building when they could have helped keep it standing. There's barely any point on doing that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Toshiro let his guard down & as a result he made his ally worry however to suggest they weren't keeping their eye on target is a preposterous thing to say. They were all keeping eye of target aka Aizen. So for Aizen to blitz them is a feat of speed.
    Hitsugaya's rage made them turn their heads towards him for a second, which was all Aizen needed to blitz them. He wouldn't have been able to do them same without having used Hinamori.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Also I say what I think is logical. Yama has proved that he can oneshot highly capable captain level fighters with speed.
    He has never used speed to one shot anybody. It's always massive strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Fake Bach (though he had blut vene) was completely surprised by the speed Yama hit him.
    He wasn't surprised at all. He was casually chatting with him, when he noticed him move, so he stopped talking and used his arm to block the strike,

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    WW (the same character that took Utitake by surprise in speed & even Urahara) was completely blitzed by Yama's speed.
    He wasn't either. WW jumped towards Yamamoto and got his chest completely broken. Yamamoto didn't show any particular speed during that fight. He did against Aizen, though he wasn't amused by neither the speed or the power of his fist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    3 sternritters did a sneak attack (no doubt full speed) & Yama (with his keen sense) was a able to react & burn them all.
    They merely jumped from behind. Plenty of time to react there. The point of them all attacking at once was to give Bach an opening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Another sternritter (the one that took chojiro's bankai) was also oneshotted by Yama's power & speed.
    No speed there either. He wasn't far from Driscoll the entire time, and when he finally decided it was enough, he just reached his arm to get a hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    ALL the fights Yama was involved in, he displayed incredible speed (yet no clones lol).
    The only fight where he used speed was against Ayon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Has Soifon done any of that against a competent captain lvl fighter before?
    Against Yoruichi, big time. And Aizen. And Barragan. And Aizen again. Speed, I mean, not power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    IIRC the sternritter she fought is very much alive so....
    Why are you using this as a base for your argument? None of the captain fights were shown except for Yamamoto's or part of Shunsui's. The point was that the Gotei was meant to lose. Every captain was just shown having trouble and that's it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Yama proved that he has the ability to oneshot capable captain lvl fighters with speed (captain lvl fighters that seem to be making all the captains look like a joke btw).
    He hasn't. He's certainly fast, but nothing that can catch every captain off guard. And he certainly hasn't proven to be far above anybody else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    He could do this to Komamura & many of his captains.
    Maybe he could do this to Kenpachi. Maybe. And Mayuri. Probably. I think. Dunno. Yamamoto is not at a level where he can take on all the captains at once. Nobody at a normal level is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Do you think Soifon as a chance in hell to do that with speed?
    About half the captains at the very least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Do you think she can nonchalantly oneshot Komamura or any of the captains with speed?
    No. I don't think so. But only because her ability is "2 hit kill" so that instantly disqualifies her as able to one shot anybody, no matter how slow or weak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    To what ridiculous extent will you overrate a character.
    I'm not overrating anybody. I'm simply following the bar set by the character in the manga. You are the one underrating her whilst overrating over characters based on nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    She is an assassin so speed isn't her only specialty.
    And yet she excels at it lile almost no other character has shown in the series. Speed greatly compliments her position and she also wanted to surpass Yoruichi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Do you think Kuwabara looking Royal Guard can easily & nonchalantly blitz Yama or Aizen in the same manner that he did Soifon?
    Yes. I'll even go as far as saying any of the RG is so strong that they could take Yamamoto down individually. Especially after seeing what they can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    & There we have it. That's what I meant by logical.
    Don't think so. You misinterpreted half of your sources and the other half doesn't exist.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    You guys have a serious problem.

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