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Translations: Bleach 595 (2)
You keep deviating from the point. Her behavior was not acceptable. Simple as. The excuse for her behavior is besides the point (it's still unacceptable).
http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...0-page-13.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...0-page-14.html Looked like he barely got his hand out for a block.
http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...20-page-8.html You don't "sneak attack" someone while moving slow. That's basic logic.
http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...8-page-16.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...8-page-17.html http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...8-page-18.html
He got closer to him & oneshotted http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...8-page-20.html
Kenpachi is brute. Yama is not just a bigger brute but also a faster & stronger brute. He will do it do Kenpachi.
---------- Post added at 12:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 PM ----------
I don't see what Soifon's behavior has got to do with this debate, honestly.
Her fight was off-paneled and all we know, she had her Bankai stolen. We don't even know if her opponent used the Bankai against her or not. But going by logic, that was more likely a struggle to stalemate.
Since we don't even know who Soifon was paired up with, there is no reason to think that she did any worse than fellow captains to be ashamed.
If it means anything, no other captain stood up and tried to stop Soifon's furious burst. Nobody tried to calm her down, because it would be rather pointless.
How can you expect someone to keep her cool with the nonchalant entrance Squad Zero have just made?
Captains are alive and on feet, but that's very unlikely for the lowly Shinigami in the squads, so, there is a chance that Soifon lost many of her subordinates during the battle. That goes for all other captains, as well.
And here, Squad Zero talks about rebuilding after so many Shinigami has passed away.
I'm sorry, but if someone refers to you as a fledgling out of nowhere and has done nothing to back up that arrogant way of talking when you were in trouble, you get frustrated.
You either suppress it or let it out.
I still don't understand why Soifon was one of the quick ones to go Bankai, though.
There is no way her SS opponent was as strong as Barragan, and her Bankai could end up destroying a large area within SS, so it's not a reasonable action at first look.
Maybe going Bankai, too, like the whole incident, points out to the hot-headed young Soifon being unable to handle the war pressure.
From this distance all he had to do was raise his arm.
I don't really want to interfere with the discussion, but I just would like to add that I do also think 50% is going overboard a bit here.
I have already made a more detailed analysis in another thread, so, if I had to simply put it here, Captain-Commander accounted 25%-30% of the Gotei 13's power.
There has been no evidence about Bankai Kyouraku and Bankai Ukitake's strength, but if we go by logic again, if they can hold their own Shikai vs Shikai, there is also no reason to think that they wouldn't be able to do it if they all went Bankai.
So, power-wise, three senior captains would surpass Captain-Commander, in my opinion. But, of course, power and destructive force aren't necessarily related, which means there is a good chance that the combined destructive force of the entire Gotei 13 is nothing when compared to Zanka no Tachi.
The results I have come to here, in terms of math:
Royal Guards: 3.0-3.8 (roughly 3.4 on average)
Aizen: 3.0 (near low-level Royal Guard power)
Senior Captains: 2.0
Rest of the Captains: 1.0
Of course, we cannot basically say who would beat who by looking at these. In fact, it's always tough to measure the real strength because each character has a different skill-set. The powers we can perceive accurately in the easiest way belong to Komamura and Kenpachi, because their power is based on brute force, rather than anything else.
Judging by their durability, that battle would go on for quite a while if they didn't get interrupted during SS arc. I would say Bankai Komamura is pretty close to Kenpachi in terms of raw power. It's only his maniacal antics that make Kenpachi a more popular character. Therefore, Komamura is thrown into battles that he's doomed to lose (=
Well, Yama's Bankai is just too destructive. He would just evaporate most of his opponents in one-on-one or even two against one fight. So I do believe he would have taken if not all the Captains together in Bankai, but something close to it, since even Aizen was able to take down most of the Captains and Vaizards down, when most of them were in Shikai-Bankai. And Aizen was just using his basic skills, raw power and Reiatsu. The same Yama should be at least a bit stronger in terms of base powers and counting his Shikai and Bankai... he is just in another league. His Bankai can one-shot most of the opponents, thus I believe he would be able to take entire Gotei with it. Especially since he also has close to perfect defense with this Bankai as well.
Yamamoto simply can't be 4 times as powerful as a captain. His reiatsu can stun a captain and kill a normal vice captain, but that's it, nothing that is far from Ichigo, Byakuya or Kenpachi who are also gifted in the reiatsu department. And there are also limits to how much a Shinigami can grow. I can see him beating somebody else individually, or maybe up to two or three captains simultaneously, but not on four or more, not even with Zanka no Tachi, because fighting head on is not the only way to fight and strength is not the only type of power. Aizen, Gin, Tousen, Shunsui, Ukitake, Mayuri, Yumichika, all have abilities whose power is not strength. So if somebody like Ukitake had a Bankai that transformed any kind of energy into his own no matter how strong, Yamamoto would be royally fucking himself into the star role in a documentary about a gang bang rape victim by going Bankai. Power alone is not going to get him far. If he must be ranked, then Yamamoto > Captain.
The Royal Guard must all have special ability based powers too, so placing them above or below Yamamoto is pointless, but in terms of reiatsu and Shinigami arts mastery, they should be right at least at that level. More so if they have been imbued with that kick ass reijutsu they keep talking about. Same to them. RG > Captain.
Aizen was easily on Yamamoto's level, mastering all of the Shinigami arts, with reitasu powerful enough to stun a captain or to shoot Kido the size of a small town. He can also take on two captains simultaneously or beat over eight captain level fighters over time. Even if his Zanpakutou is not destructive, and it can't destroy the entire Soul Society, he can still place the entire Soul Society under his illusion. I can't see him below Yamamoto in any way. But again, I doubt he can take down everybody with power alone. Aizen > Captain.
And then this whole deal with the "Senior Captains". What makes them so special? Seriously? Why do you rank them as worth twice any other captain? Sure, they have more experienced, but the Gotei 13 is full of gifted people. And nothing says they are the closest to Yamamomto or Aizen in terms of reiatsu or skill. Somebody like Byakuya or Gin who were born with natural talent and high reiatsu are much younger and might have surpassed them already. The rest all have their talents too. But overall, the Seniors are still just among the standard level.
And then there's the vice captains to consider. Sasakibe was pretty strong for one, and so is Renji. And also most captains were seated officers at one time. Urahara was promoted from a 3rd seat, Gin was a 5th seat. The gap between seats and vice captain to captain is not massive as everybody believes. Seated officers, vice captain and captain ranks come and go all the time, and they are not even ranked by power. A captain can designate whoever they want to work on whatever position they want, and a Shinigami can choose to accept any spot they want too. Sasakibe, Yumichika, Ikkaku, Renji, Tousen, Gin and Aizen are all examples of this. That you are not even consider people that in 100 years or less could be captains is like an insult.
Overall, the Royal Guard's combined strength surpassing the entire Gotei's 13 simply means they have powers as broken as Aizen's.
Based on what else can we rank captains? Surely not based on certain abilities or intellect, which would make Mayuri the 1# ranked captain. When we say the ranking of the captains, we are exactly referring to the power levels.
Saying that basing it on power levels is pointless is quite trivial. Of course, comparing different characters is pointless. We can just carry it out for a while and make a general picture. We can't say X will wipe the floor with Y, etc.
Tough one, but I'll take Aizen's word.
Secondly, there isn't any telling how naturally talented Byakuya was. The respective geniuses of their generations were Kaien, Gin and Hitsugaya. And Kyouraku told Starkk that Hitsugaya would probably surpass him in a century's time, indicating he was still the more powerful one at that time.
Renji? Strong for a vice-captain, cannot yet be considered captain material. same goes for Yumichika and Ikkaku, too. There isn't any telling about them being close enough to a captain.
If I were to included him in the list, Urahara wouldn't be so highly placed, either. I'm still not convinced he can defeat someone like Byakuya in a one-on-one battle. It seems like a stalemate to me.
The reason I'm not even considering them is exactly what you said. They aren't going to become captain in the foreseeable future. They aren't there. They aren't anywhere that level.
As optimistic as one may be, there isn't anything suggesting in the manga that a vice-captain can be anywhere near the captain in terms of power.
I see no reason to argue, though.
This is a matter of perception, after all.
Renji can withstand Byakuya's reiatsu, react to his movements and even fight back.
Ikkaku is not really far behind, and he was the one to mentor Renji in the first place. Yumichika is one of those people with broken abilities.
But okay, Renji is still a few decades behind Byakuya. And any other vice captain should lose against a captain head on. Yet, I don't get why everybody thinks a captain is 10x or even 100x stronger than a vice captain. The difference is not as big as everybody thinks it is.
Like Royal Squad calling SS captains fledglings.
So, this makes a captain around 6x-7x vice-captain power.
Not that you have to agree with this or something, but it's a lot more plausible than 100x (Don't know who suggested 100x, though).
If Captain-Commander is capable of improving his Bankai as a grown up, so should the other captains be able to.
In about two days? Ichigo's case this one?
Yamamoto's reiatsu can kill a VC ? Where did you even see that ? Yamamoto's reiatsu simply was too strong for Nanao to handle, in no way it would've killed her... The pressure was too much for her, there's no way a VC would die from reiatsu's pressure alone, no matter who the character is, be it Godizen... Because they have a decent amount of reiatsu unlike normal souls and weakass Hollows
^ Nanao nearly fainted before Kyouraku took her away, I agree she wouldn't have died but surely she would have been incapacitated for a while.
You really have no right or wrong answer when it comes to "Ranking Captains", it's all subjective. Mayuri, Komamura and Soi Fon are usually considered the weakest among them all Imo though. Which is ludicrous.
Mayuri vastly inferior to the others according to the majority. I think not, a hax Zanpakutou + Genius intellect = Very Dangerous.
Komamura is always being downplayed, without notice worth do people consider the level of his opponents and competition. Aizen, Tousen, and Kenpachi. That Fraccion isn't even worth mention. I've also seen no evidence of him losing to Bambietta too.
Soi Fon continuously gets degraded for whatever reason, if there is any. Similar to Komamura, her opponents were nothing to laugh at either. also, it just so happens that she most of the time have to face people equally as fast as her if not faster, to go along with godly like abilities.(Barragan) I don't know about anyone else but Imo this was Kubo's excuse to neutralize Soi Fon's combat effectiveness. Similar to Byakuya vs Zommari. Latest Chapters also show that she was one of the few Captains without injuries.
Tousen is and was fodder, pretty much.Only reason he was with Aizen was that he's blind. Kenpachi without going all out could almost kill him, tanked his Bankai attack like it was nothing and overpowered him with ease. During battle with Bambietta, she stated that Komamura was on verge of death. And he isn't strong without his bankai, so he IS weak. He is in his own class.
True, he had armour on, but Kenpachi's sword cut through that, yet didn't cut Komamura's flesh underneath. Also, when Bambietta said he was on the verge of death, it was right after he'd stood up and demonstrated that he still had plenty of fight left - enough that she failed to kill him in all the time it took before the Vandenreich retreated.
It's true that he does overuse his Bankai, but he's still strong without it. Remember when he flipped Baraggan's giant whale Fraccion over by the arm with his bare hands? Komamura's physical strength is massive, second only to Kenpachi's (and the fact that Kenpachi's is superior is highly debatable). I don't think Komamura gets nearly the credit he deserves, but then again how could he when his opponents have been Aizen, Resureccion Tousen, and Aizen again? We've only seen his Bankai really used against 3 people (that I can recall): Poww (who he killed with ease), Tousen (who beat him with ease) and Aizen (who beat him with ease). But given that the two who beat him were above Captain-class, it's hardly fair to call him weak because of those examples.
Feats certainly provide info, but they aren't enough on their own. Based on feat, Byakuya would rank miles ahead of Gin, whose sole success was getting the upper hand against Hitsugaya in which he half-heartedly fought. In reality, Gin would rank higher than Byakuya based on my perception of their respective abilities.
What I'm trying to say is even giving evidence from manga to prove a point isn't going to make it any more plausible, when some characters are severely under-utilized and others are heavily used.