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Thread: Ranking of Captains

  1. #601
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member cracker's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    I'll rephrase then. You can steal but you can't effectively (control) use a stolen bankai unless you are equal or greater than the opponent's level.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by cracker View Post
    I'll rephrase then. You can steal but you can't effectively (control) use a stolen bankai unless you are equal or greater than the opponent's level.
    So we can't judge individual's power by his opponent. As Nodt stole Byakuya's bankai but it's not one of those bankais, that need very much skill to control. It's not Hihio Zabimaru or Yamaji's bankai.

    He could be even VC level.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    So we can't judge individual's power by his opponent. As Nodt stole Byakuya's bankai but it's not one of those bankais, that need very much skill to control. It's not Hihio Zabimaru or Yamaji's bankai.

    He could be even VC level.
    "They are not kind of an opponent that can be defeated without Bankai."
    I copied Byakuya's words. As Nodt is at least captain-level, that's confirmed by an SS captain.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    So we can't judge individual's power by his opponent. As Nodt stole Byakuya's bankai but it's not one of those bankais, that need very much skill to control. It's not Hihio Zabimaru or Yamaji's bankai.

    He could be even VC level.
    I doubt it can be said that Byakuya's bankai does not require skill to control it. It is a fully developed bankai that has several manifestations (senkei, goukei and hakuteiken). Renji's bankai is 'younger.' It hasn't reached its full potential. Renji is certainly powerful, but remember that it was Byakuya's shikai that actually did some damage to As Nodt. Renji was not able to cut him at all. To make assumptions about his bankai being more powerful or harder to control than Byakuya's is pretty presumptuous. He is approaching Byakuya's ability, perhaps (as is suggested by the fact that Kirinji complements all of the ones brought to the pool on their ability to withstand the treatment). But Renji has not surpassed Byakuya yet, nor has his bankai. He may yet do that, but he isn't there at this point.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    The efficiency at which As Nodt used it, hell the fact that he/she could control at all I have to say he/she is definitely captain level not VC.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    I doubt it can be said that Byakuya's bankai does not require skill to control it. It is a fully developed bankai that has several manifestations (senkei, goukei and hakuteiken). Renji's bankai is 'younger.' It hasn't reached its full potential. Renji is certainly powerful, but remember that it was Byakuya's shikai that actually did some damage to As Nodt. Renji was not able to cut him at all
    I didn't say ANYTHING about it's power. And it doesn't matter, that Renji's bankai is younger. It's nature makes it VERY hard to use. Two blocks big snake moving according to hilt you hold or small blades moving according to your will. Which one is harder to use? Which one is more accurate? It IS easy to use.

    Quote Originally Posted by cracker View Post
    The efficiency at which As Nodt used it, hell the fact that he/she could control at all I have to say he/she is definitely captain level not VC.
    Efficiency? Small. He spammed it without thinking much. He didn't block with it or chase someone with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    "They are not kind of an opponent that can be defeated without Bankai."
    I copied Byakuya's words. As Nodt is at least captain-level, that's confirmed by an SS captain.
    Renji wouldn't be defeated with Shikai as well. I think only Yumichika would have a shot in shikai with Renji. And he is not quite captain level.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Referring to a Bankai stealing power-level when we are having this debate isn't very explanatory.
    We have only seen two Bankai being used after being stolen; Byakuya's and Sasakibe's Bankai. As Nodt and Driscoll used the respective Bankai, but they didn't use any technique or whatsoever. They used the raw power of the Bankai to make attacks.

    If we assume the medallion is linked to its user, there is a chance that the Bankai is contained in that medallion by the user's power.
    So, in my opinion, power level of the wielder of the medallion is relevant.
    For this reason, I suppose, if Royd tried to steal Captain-Commander's Bankai, it's not that he wouldn't be able to utilize it as a weapon, but rather he would be unable to contain it by his own power and medallion would most likely break apart, freeing the materialized Bankai spirit once again.
    Though this theory is not very related to the other respective Bankai, as they are not bringing anything that much off the charts.

    ---------- Post added at 01:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Renji wouldn't be defeated with Shikai as well. I think only Yumichika would have a shot in shikai with Renji. And he is not quite captain level.
    The thing is, Byakuya tricked one of the SR away, so, it was a 2-on-1 situation then.
    Byakuya said those words when it was 2-on-1 already, if I'm not wrong. Can Renji without Bankai possibly counter a captain and a strong vice captain in Shikai?
    I don't think so.

    ---------- Post added at 01:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 PM ----------

    Anyway, we have strayed too much from the topic here.
    There are respective threads for SR, Espada power levels, working principle of the Bankai medallion and et cetera.
    No need to discuss these topics under this thread, I suppose.

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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Kenpachi has never been that strong. Shunsui said that they needed him to improve because at the moment he's just vice captain material with powerful reiatsu, yet he just flails until something happens. And Ichigo and Byakuya are somewhere else, Yamamoto is dead, and so on, they need to gather all the battle power they can and Kenpachi is just taking a spot and not using it.

    He might get a power up and it might make him as strong as strong and useful as Byakuya, but he's not going to do anything as ridiculous as what he did in that fanfic released earlier this year. The truth is that he has always had luck with the match ups so he's still alive, but as he's now he doesn't stand a chance against equally plot-armored enemies.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Kenpachi has never been that strong. Shunsui said that they needed him to improve because at the moment he's just vice captain material with powerful reiatsu, yet he just flails until something happens. And Ichigo and Byakuya are somewhere else, Yamamoto is dead, and so on, they need to gather all the battle power they can and Kenpachi is just taking a spot and not using it.

    He might get a power up and it might make him as strong as strong and useful as Byakuya, but he's not going to do anything as ridiculous as what he did in that fanfic released earlier this year. The truth is that he has always had luck with the match ups so he's still alive, but as he's now he doesn't stand a chance against equally plot-armored enemies.
    That is incorrect. Zaraki Kenpachi was powerful enough to defeat 3 sternritters on his own using his raw power alone. When it comes to results, he surpasses even Shunsui, who stated that the captains needed bankai to defeat their quincy opponents. Zaraki clearly did not need a bankai to get rid of 3.
    NO to KUROSAKI ICHIGO USING a BOW!!!

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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby_Temple View Post
    That is incorrect. Zaraki Kenpachi was powerful enough to defeat 3 sternritters on his own using his raw power alone. When it comes to results, he surpasses even Shunsui, who stated that the captains needed bankai to defeat their quincy opponents. Zaraki clearly did not need a bankai to get rid of 3.
    The first one just made himself bigger and howled like a gorilla.
    The second one just stood there talking a lot.
    The third one transformed into a clone, and Kenpachi always starts out weak and gets more serious as time goes on.

    Kenpachi clearly didn't need to use Bankai because those weren't real battles. I said that until his fight against Royd he was being lucky. Don't bring results into this because the only reason Kenpachi killed 3 Stern Ritters was because he was about to be brutally beaten into near death next chapter and he couldn't go without at least giving something to the fans.

    ---------- Post added at 02:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    That's also an assumption. Captain-Commander was trying to end the battle quickly and after Royd tanked the Shikai attack, he immediately resorted to his Bankai, noting that Bach would possibly be killed by only his Bankai. As powerful as he was, Captain-Commander couldn't possibly deal with the entire SS on his own, and there is no reason to think Bach can.

    ---------- Post added at 02:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 AM ----------



    He isn't that strong, but he isn't VC material or something like that.
    He has no knowledge of his own Zanpakutou. A very basic grasp of Shunpo, no Kido, no proper fighting technique or skill. He's just strong, so he has survived so far, but that's it.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    The first one just made himself bigger and howled like a gorilla.
    The second one just stood there talking a lot.
    The third one transformed into a clone, and Kenpachi always starts out weak and gets more serious as time goes on.

    Kenpachi clearly didn't need to use Bankai because those weren't real battles. I said that until his fight against Royd he was being lucky. Don't bring results into this because the only reason Kenpachi killed 3 Stern Ritters was because he was about to be brutally beaten into near death next chapter and he couldn't go without at least giving something to the fans.
    The reason he killed 3 Stern Ritters is because he is powerful enough to do so. Saying that it is just to please fans is utter rubbish.

    Its like saying dangai Ichigo defeated Aizen because fans wanted it.

    Even Hasch Wald, who was shown capable of cutting Ichigo's bankai blade, was shock on how powerful Zaraki was.
    NO to KUROSAKI ICHIGO USING a BOW!!!

  14. #612
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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    @Torran...so you basically mean that Kenpachi is not Captain level considering his skills? Basic 4 skills, right?

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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby_Temple View Post
    The reason he killed 3 Stern Ritters is because he is powerful enough to do so.
    No, the reason he did was because they were stupid. I don't consider killing somebody that just stands there explaining their abilities as any sort of achievement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby_Temple View Post
    Saying that it is just to please fans is utter rubbish.
    Except it totally was. He had to be shown killing something because he was about to get his ass royally beaten. Otherwise people would have complained about him going out like fodder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby_Temple View Post
    Its like saying dangai Ichigo defeated Aizen because fans wanted it.
    No, Ichigo defeated Aizen for plot reasons. Kenpachi killed 3 SR because it would make him look strong so that his total and humiliating defeat would at least be better than every other captain who apparently never got any kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby_Temple View Post
    Even Hasch Wald, who was shown capable of cutting Ichigo's bankai blade, was shock on how powerful Zaraki was.
    He wasn't in shock. At first he was just surprised at the sight, but then he just answered monotonously to Kenpachi's ridiculous explanation.

    ---------- Post added at 03:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by benelori View Post
    @Torran...so you basically mean that Kenpachi is not Captain level considering his skills? Basic 4 skills, right?
    I said he has no skill whatsoever because that's the truth. Even calling him vice captain level or seated officer is pointless. All he has going at the moment is powerful reiatsu, so teaching him how to fight would be a massive improvement.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    No, the reason he did was because they were stupid. I don't consider killing somebody that just stands there explaining their abilities as any sort of achievement.
    No. The reason he did is because he could with his own raw power alone. Now compare the fight against As Nodt. He prevailed against 2 shinigamis, one a captain the other a potential captain.

    Now can you logically expect the same result if As Nodt faced Zaraki Kenpachi mano-y-mano?

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Except it totally was. He had to be shown killing something because he was about to get his ass royally beaten. Otherwise people would have complained about him going out like fodder.
    No, it was totally wasn't. A lot of fans complained earlier about how Zaraki's fights were off-paneled. He was defeated because he went after the quincy who was a whole lot stronger than him.

    Quote Quote:
    No, Ichigo defeated Aizen for plot reasons. Kenpachi killed 3 SR because it would make him look strong so that his total and humiliating defeat would at least be better than every other captain who apparently never got any kill.
    Ichigo defeated Aizen because he became strong enough to do so. Zaraki killed 3 SR because he was strong enough to do so. He also defeated Cinco Espada because he was strong enough to do so.

    Quote Quote:
    He wasn't in shock. At first he was just surprised at the sight, but then he just answered monotonously to Kenpachi's ridiculous explanation.
    Then you need to read the chapter again.
    Last edited by Toby_Temple; December 13, 2012 at 04:10 AM.
    NO to KUROSAKI ICHIGO USING a BOW!!!

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    Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby_Temple View Post
    It is a logical assumption. And you are making a mistake by thinking that Juha Bach without Zanka no Tachi = Juha Bach with Zanka no Tachi.

    And yes, it is much possible for Juha Bach to deal with the whole of SS than Yamamoto because Juha can steal bankais.
    I'm not making such an assumption. I'm stating he isn't going to be an equivalent of Bach + Captain Commander in terms of strength. Bankai stealing doesn't pile up power that way as far as I observe.

    Can he? I thought one medallion was only capable of stealing only one Bankai.
    So, Kyouraku, Ukitake, Unohana, whoever is there to fight can go Bankai against Bach, unless his medallion is capable of stealing more than one Bankai, which isn't stated so far.

    ---------- Post added at 03:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    No, the reason he did was because they were stupid. I don't consider killing somebody that just stands there explaining their abilities as any sort of achievement.
    Essentially, killing a bad guy in a manga shouldn't be considered as an achievement, then.
    All the villains go on and on about their powers while the protagonists do their best to fight, which is the reason why good guys come out on top all the time.

    ---------- Post added at 03:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    He has no knowledge of his own Zanpakutou. A very basic grasp of Shunpo, no Kido, no proper fighting technique or skill. He's just strong, so he has survived so far, but that's it.
    For the record, Hinamori is more skilled than 90% of the characters.
    Just saying.

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