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Thread: Ranking of Captains

  1. #1066
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    And what does that make your claim when you say Tousen was beaten by Hisagi? You were ignoring the reasons behind Tousen's defeats just to justify your claim that he was weak. Yes, you said that. I'm bringing this up because of what you said below.
    A>B>C logic means A>B, B>C, so A>C. Go find that and don't come back without nice quote. And all I said was Tousen wasn't strong for a captain, not for a Shinigami.



    Quote Quote:
    Something we've never seen in Tousen's case? He was a 5th seat and beat or killed everybody above him. What he used on Kensei was probably Bankai. This is what happens when Tousen actually aims to kill instead of trying to teach his opponents fear, as Kensei wasn't plot armored. You got it backwards, Gin has never shown to be able to take down a captain with such ease.
    Panels, please? Are we sure it was Tousen? Are we sure it wasn't Aizen? If it was Tousen, are we sure they weren't Aizen's KS?

    Quote Quote:
    Ichigo doesn't have to be screaming or anything to be in despair. Against Ulquiorra he was fighting for survival, but against Aizen he completely gave up. And don't ignore how Ichigo's performance had dropped due to his fear of Hollowfying again, and how fucked up his resolve was during the entire arc. He was completely lost and had absolutely no idea on what to do, afraid to try anything.
    He could feel his power, he was helpless, he had more questions than answers, he felt like he was being used like a toy. Still, I wouldn't call it despair. He was in some serious shit, but it was different.



    Quote Quote:
    Your tendency to completely ignore everything that doesn't benefit your argument is infuriating. Sure, go ahead, just ignore the evidence and say you have seen it a thousand times already.
    Look up word "ignore" in a dictionary. I looked at every link you sent, and I almost know every panel by heart already.

    Quote Quote:
    And now you are going on the defensive saying that because it doesn't happen in the manga (when in fact it totally does, and it ends here because I can't come up with more words to link to other pages). You should know you can't apply plot armor when trying to rank people by strength outside of the source.
    Hey, kiddo, look "throat" up. xD The first link is chest, and the second is head. And aiming for the head is just Shunsui's personality. It served some purpose. Through the whole fight Shunsui was being shown as a person who doesn't care about rules and cares only about winning. And now, as a CC, he shows how much he shits on C46 rules.

    P.S Quite frankly, I expected Tousen vs Shinji and Ichigo vs Shaz Domino.


    Quote Quote:
    In a direct confrontation it shows how important some abilities like Tousen's or Shinji's are. All it takes is a split second to kill an opponent. Physical power is not the only type of power. But speaking of physical, how is it that Tousen could cut Kenpachi with such a laughable ease, and also chop Grimmjow's arm off with no effort, but Kenpachi can't even mortally wound Tousen with a slash like this? And not only that, Tousen with a mask can take a punch from Komamura's Bankai and with Hollowfication he can stop it with ease. And that is just physical strength; his sound based abilities also increase, making them a hundred times deadlier.
    Can take a punch with mask? Panels please. Reread the manga. His arm was CRUSHED. He can't take that punch. His hand being regenerated doesn't make him able to take it.



    How many times have you sent those to other users? You are boring as hell, damn...

    Quote Quote:
    Both Kenpachi and Yamamoto being forced to be stabbed shows how helpless they were in their situation, nowhere does it say they are weak.
    Yes, and being helpless is the same as not being able to do anything else and thus, not being strong enough to do anything else. Just say it, don't paraphrase it to make the impression it's different.

    Quote Quote:
    The only fact here is that Tousen didn't actually try due to plot induced idiocy. There were multiple ways he could have killed Kenpachi but instead he slowly approached Kenpachi and cut him everywhere but actual vital spots.
    And Hinamori could have killed Yamaji while he was asleep like ten thousands times. And he was trying to cut vital spots. But as I wrote before, plot doesn't let people cut each other's throats. Plot is part of a story.


    Quote Quote:
    You should read my post instead. Not only was Tousen's ability incredibly dangerous, but his strength was also of use to Aizen. And by strength I mean actual strength. And Tousen willingly followed Aizen because his plan would change Soul Society and was more just than them. No manipulation from that side.
    Strength? What strength? He was ability type, that was being trashed while opponent figured out a way how to fight. Couldn't kill Kenpachi, got beaten. Yup, he could, but that WOULDN'T make him strong. He was not like Aizen, who had outrageous strength, with which he could oppose entire G13 AND hax ability. He was decent fighter, pretty strong (For a captain class, not very strong), and had hax ability.

    And how old are you? I won't explain what is manipulation and how to manipulate people to an idiot, who doesn't want to understand. Maybe when you grow up, you'll understand.

    You don't even see, that Aizen was just using Tousen. Aizen knew what are Tousen's principles. He used it and made Tousen admire him. He made Tousen follow him. Then he killed him like a trash the first second he got beaten.


    Quote Quote:
    Wait, whoa, hold it there. First of all, if Tousen felt obliged to protect Aizen, then why didn't Aizen move or try to block? He didn't even attempt to attack or defend because he was confident in Tousen's strength. And second, Gin was concerned about the others not being killed by Aizen?
    Aizen didn't move? How do you know he was there in the first place? How do you know he didn't have his sword prepared? And what conditional sentence is it?

    "if Tousen felt obliged to protect Aizen, then why didn't Aizen move or try to block? "

    You have answer in the very question... Aizen didn't block because he knew Tousen was loyal to him like a dog and wouldn't want him to lift his sword. Tousen was even surprised, that Aizen decided to draw his sword. He wanted to do everything himself.

    Quote Quote:
    Gin didn't care about them, he didn't even care about participating, he was just watching them fall like flies one by one because he know he was the only one that could do it. Gin's part was to have no part in the matter, he was literally just tagging along.
    Yup, he had to. He didn't kill Matsumoto, he cut Hiyori so Aizen couldn't kill her, he didn't fight Ichigo after he was winning, he just wanted to "watch", he didn't want to fight. And participating in this war fighting beside Aizen or ending up wounded with collateral isn't very wise decission.



    Quote Quote:
    ...what?
    Didn't expect you to understand. Tousen felt obliged to protect Aizen, you understood that, right? He was that villain-supporting characters, that goes with you wherever you are. Juha is being attacked? Haschwald cuts Ichigo's bankai OR shouting "YOUR MAJESTY!" Aizen is being attacked? Tousen goes for Shinji's head. Ichigo is fighting? Orihime "Kurosaki-kun" spam.


    Quote Quote:
    Tousen never followed Aizen because he could "change the rotten world". He simply followed the path of justice and Aizen's was more just than the Shinigami. Hell, if you compare Aizen to the Shinigami then Aizen is actually the good guy who everybody disagrees with. Just about anything Aizen could have done to Soul Society would be better by default.
    R.e.r.e.a.d.t.h.e.m.a.n.g.a. PLEASE. Path of justice? He was talking nonsense. Read his little talk with Komamura. Read about his motives while becoming Shinigami.



    Quote Quote:
    Because Aizen was not going to show any weakness, and using Kyoka Suigetsu in a direct challenge would come up as cowardly. He also said that he would engage Shinji with his sword, so that makes it even less probable that he was using an illusion there. But anyway, seeing how Shinji can cut Aizen without much difficulty unlike Ichigo, it would have been dangerous for Aizen to take the slash. It becomes obvious that he was confident in Tousen's strength. Even in the end when all the Espada were down, Aizen said "in the end your strength would be below my own. Gin, Tousen, let's go". There's really more evidence towards Tousen being strong and trusted by Aizen than anything claiming otherwise.
    Where did I write, that Tousen was weak? He was weaker than Gin IMO, he was weak for a captain IMO. Period. Nothing else.



    Quote Quote:
    Shinji could, Soifon could, Shunsui could (?).
    Panels, pretty please? Where people are behind him and actually effectively hit him. Ichigo? Couldn't, Kido shield. Shinji did? Where? He cut his arm. Soifon? Not sure if Aizen even was there, he said he countered with sheer reiatsu, don't see why we should believe it. Shunsui could? Don't see a wound anywhere.


    Quote Quote:
    You are very wrong in two things. Tousen was afraid of death and would never sacrifice himself. Actually, both Gin and Tousen were afraid of death; they either had something they wanted to see completed (proven) or simply were afraid of leaving forever. And about that strength thing, I already said that Aizen trusted Tousen enough that he would just stand there with a sword swung at his neck.
    Yup, just ignore Aizen's ability and talk more about trust and all!

    And Tousen wouldn't mind dying for Aizen. He was so loyal.


    Quote Quote:
    You can only call it manipulating when you manipulate facts in such a way. Aizen promised he would become the new Soul King; Tousen found his actions to be more just than the Shinigami, so he joined Aizen. It was Tousen's decision that made him follow Aizen.
    You really don't know anything about people, do you? I think I wrote in my last discussion with you, that I study psychology. Aizen always was manipulator. He would say things Tousen would want to hear. Wouldn't be sure about "becoming Soul King". And the only reason Tousen was there is Aizen LET him follow.



    Quote Quote:
    And isn't Grillo just the name of his Zanpakutou in Spanish? And that noise ability related to his Zanpakutou? Whether his Zanpakutou was sacrificed or not doesn't mean the essence of his abilities vanished.
    Don't call it HIS zanpakuto. It was his beloved friend's zanpakuto. And I always thought those different abilities came from 2 souls in one sword. About Grillo. It's Spanish, thus, Hollow-ish. His bankai was completely different.


    Quote Quote:
    Recruiting is besides the point. Aizen had 2 captains, tens or maybe even hundreds of Shinigami and Rukongai citizens under his command, thousands of Hollows, hundreds of Arrancar, 10 exceptional Hollows out of which 4 were Vasto Lorde and one of was a big ape with humongous power. Why Tousen? Why didn't he chose somebody else to trust and have him follow at all times? It's obvious that he had to keep a close watch on Gin, but what about Tousen? Tousen was loyal, so why not pick somebody probably stronger? Or maybe it wasn't about strength, so why not have smart people like Szayel helping him? It seems that Tousen was more valuable to Aizen than anybody else, and stremgth seems to be the bigger option.
    Tousen was the only one loyal and pretty strong. Stronger ones wouldn't follow Aizen and betray SS.

    Quote Quote:
    It's all justified anyway, because as shown during his fight with Kenpachi, argument with Grimmjow, TBtP and fake Karakura battle, Tousen can take on a captain with low difficulty.
    Show me panels, where he can take Kenpachi and Hisagi/Komamura with low difficulty. And remind me, how did he die...?

    Quote Quote:
    Ichigo could have been 10x stronger or 100x stronger than a captain, but it wouldn't matter because Gin's Bankai was absurdly fast to the point that Ichigo was more worried about the direction of the sword rather than Gin.
    And every captain would be even more worried.

    Quote Quote:
    1- Not manipulated
    2- No actual reason to believe he was the weakest link
    3- Aizen liked provoking people.
    1. Used, manipulated, have it your way.
    2. Judging by his feats, I believe he was weaker than Gin, who was prodigy, and could "kill" Butterflaizen. (yup, with ability, just like Tousen's strength lies in ability).
    3. Provoking to manipulate. He wanted to cause certain reaction.

  2. #1067
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    A>B>C logic means A>B, B>C, so A>C. Go find that and don't come back without nice quote. And all I said was Tousen wasn't strong for a captain, not for a Shinigami.
    No, it's not my job to come up with quotes when it's your job to justify your claim. You used "Beaten by Kenpachi, beaten by Hisagi" as if it was an actual example when that logic was full of flaws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Panels, please? Are we sure it was Tousen? Are we sure it wasn't Aizen? If it was Tousen, are we sure they weren't Aizen's KS?
    What is that black thing covering Kensei and why did he react to it? Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu doesn't work like that. And why would Aizen be getting his hands dirty when it was made clear later that it was Tousen who had been there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    He could feel his power, he was helpless, he had more questions than answers, he felt like he was being used like a toy. Still, I wouldn't call it despair. He was in some serious shit, but it was different.
    It was despair because Ichigo was completely lost and didn't know what to do, and gave up even trying to justify his presence there. That's what despair is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Look up word "ignore" in a dictionary. I looked at every link you sent, and I almost know every panel by heart already.
    Oh, so you "looked" at the panels. Right. But you blatantly ignored the evidence presented. When Kay said that Tousen could have killed Kenpachi if he wanted you just brushed it aside and said "oh look this page I've seen before" with no effort to respond to his point. That IS ignoring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Hey, kiddo, look "throat" up. xD The first link is chest, and the second is head. And aiming for the head is just Shunsui's personality. It served some purpose. Through the whole fight Shunsui was being shown as a person who doesn't care about rules and cares only about winning. And now, as a CC, he shows how much he shits on C46 rules.

    P.S Quite frankly, I expected Tousen vs Shinji and Ichigo vs Shaz Domino.
    Oh wow, so you are ignoring examples of attacks aiming to kill just because they are a few cm above or below the neck? And those examples with Shaz and Shinji have already been given before. But don't avoid the topic. You said that it won't happen, even though you can't apply plot armor in a discussion outside of the source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Can take a punch with mask? Panels please. Reread the manga. His arm was CRUSHED. He can't take that punch. His hand being regenerated doesn't make him able to take it.
    He can take a direct attack whilst Hollowfied and survive a punch whilst masked. Putting a mask on increases resistance and durability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    How many times have you sent those to other users? You are boring as hell, damn...
    It's ironic because you are responding to an accusation of using a fallacy by using a fallacy, and this is not the first time you are doing this. If you respond to a post you are expected to respond to the points, not evade them and use insults to find a way out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Yes, and being helpless is the same as not being able to do anything else and thus, not being strong enough to do anything else. Just say it, don't paraphrase it to make the impression it's different.
    You can't make a post without using a fallacy, can't you? It doesn't all come down to strength. Stop putting words in other people's mouths.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And Hinamori could have killed Yamaji while he was asleep like ten thousands times. And he was trying to cut vital spots. But as I wrote before, plot doesn't let people cut each other's throats. Plot is part of a story.
    And this thread is not about the story. Stop trying to bring plot armor here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Strength? What strength?
    Cutting Kenpachi like butter, cutting Grimmjow's arm and obliterating it, killing higher ranked Shinigami, taking out Barragan's personal bodyguards and surprising a captain from the front are not ability related.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    He was ability type, that was being trashed while opponent figured out a way how to fight. Couldn't kill Kenpachi, got beaten. Yup, he could, but that WOULDN'T make him strong. He was not like Aizen, who had outrageous strength, with which he could oppose entire G13 AND hax ability. He was decent fighter, pretty strong (For a captain class, not very strong), and had hax ability.
    Once again bringing that logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And how old are you? I won't explain what is manipulation and how to manipulate people to an idiot, who doesn't want to understand. Maybe when you grow up, you'll understand.
    Ha. Hahahaha. Is that the best you can do? More fallacies? You seem to be an expert at using them. And then you talk about growing up too. I can't even understand the mental process in that head of yours. I've given a reason why Tousen wasn't manipulated and why he followed Aizen, while you keep thinking that Aizen ever did something to gain control over Tousen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    You don't even see, that Aizen was just using Tousen. Aizen knew what are Tousen's principles. He used it and made Tousen admire him. He made Tousen follow him. Then he killed him like a trash the first second he got beaten.
    You can't even understand the most basic of his principles yet talk all high and mighty about something you are so convinced about. Tousen choose the path of justice, what he found to be the one with the least bloodshed. Soul Society's solution to everything was to kill it, but the "Justice system" wasn't even just, so Tousen decided to follow Aizen instead.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...3-page-13.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...7-page-12.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...7-page-13.html

    While the Shinigami path lead to more senseless violence and an eternity of unfairness, Aizen's path required ONE murder and it would change many things probably for the better. Aizen was honest and straight forward with his plans. Become stronger, kill the King. Tousen simply followed because it was more just than the Shinigami.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Aizen didn't move? How do you know he was there in the first place? How do you know he didn't have his sword prepared? And what conditional sentence is it?
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-17.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-18.html
    Because Aizen's hands remained far from his Zanpakutou, and both expression and personality make it hard to believe he would use an illusion for such a trivial thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    "if Tousen felt obliged to protect Aizen, then why didn't Aizen move or try to block? "

    You have answer in the very question... Aizen didn't block because he knew Tousen was loyal to him like a dog and wouldn't want him to lift his sword. Tousen was even surprised, that Aizen decided to draw his sword. He wanted to do everything himself.
    Aizen trusted Tousen that much. He wouldn't have risked a sword getting that close to him otherwise. The same happened in Aizen vs Yamamoto were Aizen was also confident in WonderWeiss' strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Yup, he had to. He didn't kill Matsumoto, he cut Hiyori so Aizen couldn't kill her, he didn't fight Ichigo after he was winning, he just wanted to "watch", he didn't want to fight. And participating in this war fighting beside Aizen or ending up wounded with collateral isn't very wise decission.
    And where does that "cutting Hiyori so Aizen couldn't kill her" come from? Matsumoto is obvious because she was the only person he ever cared about, but Hiyori? He didn't have problems with killing people during the TBtP arc or during the SS. Hiyori got distracted and Gin cut her in half just like Tousen intended to do. As if cutting in half can save somebody's life. He didn't kill Ichigo because he saw potential in him but later pitied him, not because it was his intention to help him. He was there with a semi active role even fighting Shinji, but not there to help anybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Didn't expect you to understand. Tousen felt obliged to protect Aizen, you understood that, right? He was that villain-supporting characters, that goes with you wherever you are. Juha is being attacked? Haschwald cuts Ichigo's bankai OR shouting "YOUR MAJESTY!" Aizen is being attacked? Tousen goes for Shinji's head. Ichigo is fighting? Orihime "Kurosaki-kun" spam.
    Didn't expect me to understand? Such arrogance. I asked what was thing doing here when it's not even true. Tousen was there to serve Aizen, not to stand there all the time yelling "Aizen-sama!". For the most part he acted by himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    R.e.r.e.a.d.t.h.e.m.a.n.g.a. PLEASE. Path of justice? He was talking nonsense. Read his little talk with Komamura. Read about his motives while becoming Shinigami.
    I have read the manga more times than you and understand it far better than you. His talk about the path of justice wasn't nonsense.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...8-page-16.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-10.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-11.html

    Tousen became a Shinigami for the sake of Justice, and that Justice encompassed revenge, and bloodshed for the sake of righteousness. Aizen's path followed Tousen's ideals more than the Shinigami.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Where did I write, that Tousen was weak? He was weaker than Gin IMO, he was weak for a captain IMO. Period. Nothing else.
    And this is what comes out of nowhere. Saying that he wasn't the strongest captain is fair to assume, saying that he's weak for a captain is not, especially with evidence suggesting otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Panels, pretty please? Where people are behind him and actually effectively hit him. Ichigo? Couldn't, Kido shield. Shinji did? Where? He cut his arm. Soifon? Not sure if Aizen even was there, he said he countered with sheer reiatsu, don't see why we should believe it. Shunsui could? Don't see a wound anywhere.
    The point was about being able to cut Aizen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Yup, just ignore Aizen's ability and talk more about trust and all!
    Tousen worked as Aizen's right hand man for over a century. In the end it was Tousen who Aizen chose to stay by his side at all times. So yes, there's a lot of trust right there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And Tousen wouldn't mind dying for Aizen. He was so loyal.
    Tousen was afraid of death.
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-chapter-65-page-9.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...7-page-21.html
    There's a limit to his loyalty. He couldn't have afforded to die just like that without having his lifetime goal completed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    You really don't know anything about people, do you? I think I wrote in my last discussion with you, that I study psychology.
    Jolly good job you're doing there, using fallacies every 5 sentences and failing to debate on such a basic level. I knew about fallacies by the time I was 15, and you don't, even though I'm confident that the importance of reasoning is important for anything Psychology related.

    AND SPEAKING OF FALLACIES:
    http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority
    Boy, I love that page. Makes me want to write a thesis on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Aizen always was manipulator. He would say things Tousen would want to hear. Wouldn't be sure about "becoming Soul King". And the only reason Tousen was there is Aizen LET him follow.
    Tell me something. If Tousen hates the world as it is, hates the Shinigami, and hates unnecessary bloodshed, and Aizen wants to change the world (proved), distanced himself from the Shinigami, and threw previous conventions out of the window about races and unified Shinigami and Hollow peacefully under the same roof, and there was only a single necessary victim, then why wouldn't Tousen join him? It wasn't just words, it was actions what convinced Tousen. Aizen was portrayed as a bad guy, and he may have been, but everything he touched turned to gold. Look at what he did for his followers, they were even better than before. Aizen's path was objectively more righteous than the Shinigami's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Don't call it HIS zanpakuto. It was his beloved friend's zanpakuto. And I always thought those different abilities came from 2 souls in one sword. About Grillo. It's Spanish, thus, Hollow-ish. His bankai was completely different.
    Zanpakutou die with their owner. Tousen may have picked a sword, but the spirit was most likely his, and fits him better due to the types of abilities. Ichigo's Zanpakutou was originally an oversized version of Rukia's, why couldn't have Tousen infused the empty sword with his own spirit? And his Bankai may or may not be gone, but it doesn't change the fact that his Resureccion was influenced by the nature of his Zanpakutou.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Show me panels, where he can take Kenpachi and Hisagi/Komamura with low difficulty. And remind me, how did he die...?
    The panels were already shown to you, but you disregarded them saying you had seen them a thousand times and that you knew them like the back of your hand. I'm not going to bother giving you the evidence again when you can simply scroll up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    And every captain would be even more worried.
    Gin was more dangerous, and in fact I ranked him higher than everybody except Aizen and Yamamoto, but that doesn't make him stronger. He was an excellent strategist and fighter but strong? Nothing actually suggests that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    1. Used, manipulated, have it your way.
    2. Judging by his feats, I believe he was weaker than Gin, who was prodigy, and could "kill" Butterflaizen. (yup, with ability, just like Tousen's strength lies in ability).
    3. Provoking to manipulate. He wanted to cause certain reaction.
    And I already answered this.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  3. #1068
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Oh, so you "looked" at the panels. Right. But you blatantly ignored the evidence presented. When Kay said that Tousen could have killed Kenpachi if he wanted you just brushed it aside and said "oh look this page I've seen before" with no effort to respond to his point. That IS ignoring..
    Oh boy, now I'm pissed. My computer crashed when I was about to finish my reply. Maybe I'll reply tomorrow, and if I do, I'll make it really short.

    Now I'll reply to those quotes that have actually some meaning and are important to a discussion. You know, that we're talking about the same thing over and over again, right?

    Quote Quote:
    It doesn't all come down to strength. Stop putting words in other people's mouths.
    Yup, thank you, exactly my point. It doesn't all come down to strength, so judging strength by that is plain wrong.

    Quote Quote:
    I have read the manga more times than you and understand it far better than you. His talk about the path of justice wasn't nonsense.

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...8-page-16.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-10.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-11.html

    Tousen became a Shinigami for the sake of Justice, and that Justice encompassed revenge, and bloodshed for the sake of righteousness. Aizen's path followed Tousen's ideals more than the Shinigami.
    Long story short, Tousen doesn't follow a path of justice. He follows the path of revenge bloodshed but tries to justify it with morality and rightousness. Nowhere near real justice. He proved it with his monologue to Grimmjow. His talk before Ressurection was proof of him totally losing it to revenge. He called his revenge "justice" to justify what he did and was going to do. Saying revenge required bloodshed, so NOT liking bloodshed, and calling REVENGE a JUSTICE is nonsense and wrong. It's his pitiful attempt to justify his actions.


    Quote Quote:
    And this is what comes out of nowhere. Saying that he wasn't the strongest captain is fair to assume, saying that he's weak for a captain is not, especially with evidence suggesting otherwise.
    I wrote, that IMO he is 9th/10th captain. I think Yamaji, Aizen, Unohana, Shunsui, Ukitake, Gin, Kenpachi and Byakuya are stronger than him.

    Quote Quote:
    Tousen was afraid of death.
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-chapter-65-page-9.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...7-page-21.html
    There's a limit to his loyalty. He couldn't have afforded to die just like that without having his lifetime goal completed.
    First panel, Kenpachi speaking, not really good source of proof. He is an idiot.
    Second panel, I think you misunderstood. He said he was afraid of DYING AS A SHINIGAMI, not dying itself. He meant he was afraid of not becoming something more than a shinigami before his death.
    If he believed Aizen will carry his will and achieve his goal, he would give up his life for Aizen's. That is, if Aizen was in grave danger.

    Quote Quote:
    Tell me something. If Tousen hates the world as it is, hates the Shinigami, and hates unnecessary bloodshed, and Aizen wants to change the world (proved), distanced himself from the Shinigami, and threw previous conventions out of the window about races and unified Shinigami and Hollow peacefully under the same roof, and there was only a single necessary victim, then why wouldn't Tousen join him? It wasn't just words, it was actions what convinced Tousen. Aizen was portrayed as a bad guy, and he may have been, but everything he touched turned to gold. Look at what he did for his followers, they were even better than before. Aizen's path was objectively more righteous than the Shinigami's.
    Tousen is a hypocrite. His path required lots of bloodshed that he tried to justify. Aizen's path wasn't rightous. Maybe it was, for him. He didn't care about others and would do anything for power and to achieve his goal.

    And I don't have shred of doubt WHY Tousen joined Aizen. Aizen used it against him and gained pretty strong, loyal follower.


    P.S It's like 3 am in my country so responding AGAIN to the every single quote would take just too much. I'm sorry. Maybe tomorrow I'll quickly write, but we should really decrease amount of those quotes. Few of them are about the same thing.

  4. #1069
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Quote:
    And Hinamori could have killed Yamaji while he was asleep like ten thousands times. And he was trying to cut vital spots. But as I wrote before, plot doesn't let people cut each other's throats. Plot is part of a story.
    No she coulnt. Yama would sense her even in his sleep and most likely someone as weak as VC wouldnt be even able to ct Yama even if Yama would do nothing.
    Yes plot is part of the story and we need to look when the plot is more important than any logic.
    At the begining of the fight Keny didnt even knew that have his sense of touch. Tosen just made a little cut on hus shoulder. At that time Tosen could cut anywhere and Zaraki would just stood there unable to dodge. The important thing to look at are also that Tosen used shunpo only onece and it was to dodge Keny and not to attack him and newer used kido to block Keny even one secound would be enough.
    So Yeah Tosen lost to plot and not to Keny. Because of plot he couldnt use Kido or Shunpo just like well every single of Kenys opponents, even Byakuya become retarded when fighting Keny http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-19.html He used Bankai and starded to fight Keny at close range. For some reason as we see it in this arc Kubo loves Zaraki so much that he makes all his opponent retarded.
    Tosen dont use shunpo or Kido
    Nnoitora runs into a kendo with his guard down
    Sterrnritters just standing there waiting till Zaraki kills them.

    As for my ranking

    1.Yama
    2.Isshin Aizen
    3Seniors, Tessai, Ura, Yoru ( I think that Unohana is stronger than Uki and Kyou of course and I think that Tessai will be a beast)
    4.all ither other captains
    Last edited by ReiWen; January 05, 2013 at 05:39 AM.

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  6. #1070
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by ReiWen View Post
    No she coulnt. Yama would sense her even in his sleep and most likely someone as weak as VC wouldnt be even able to ct Yama even if Yama would do nothing.
    Yes plot is part of the story and we need to look when the plot is more important than any logic.
    At the begining of the fight Keny didnt even knew that have his sense of touch. Tosen just made a little cut on hus shoulder. At that time Tosen could cut anywhere and Zaraki would just stood there unable to dodge. The important thing to look at are also that Tosen used shunpo only onece and it was to dodge Keny and not to attack him and newer used kido to block Keny even one secound would be enough.
    So Yeah Tosen lost to plot and not to Keny. Because of plot he couldnt use Kido or Shunpo just like well every single of Kenys opponents, even Byakuya become retarded when fighting Keny http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-19.html He used Bankai and starded to fight Keny at close range. For some reason as we see it in this arc Kubo loves Zaraki so much that he makes all his opponent retarded.
    Tosen dont use shunpo or Kido
    Nnoitora runs into a kendo with his guard down
    Sterrnritters just standing there waiting till Zaraki kills them.

    As for my ranking

    1.Yama
    2.Isshin Aizen
    3Seniors, Tessai, Ura, Yoru ( I think that Unohana is stronger than Uki and Kyou of course and I think that Tessai will be a beast)
    4.all ither other captains
    I agree with your post. Plot armor has had an effect on the story significantly. But there isn't really a battle we can point out that didn't have plot armor. We can guess who will come out of the battle as winner more or less at the beginning of each respective fight.

    For Kenpachi vs Tousen; I don't think attacking with Shunpo would make much of a difference for Tousen. Kenpachi was already unaware of his presence at any point within the Bankai's boundaries, so, he didn't need it badly. But I do agree Kido could have made a difference. He could have used Rikujokoro or a technique like that to immobilize Kenpachi.

    For Kenpachi vs Nnoitra; It was indeed miserable of Nnoitra to underestimate Kenpachi's power and attack head on. He should have been more observant about his opponent's stance.

    As for your list, well, Tessai is generally overlooked, since we didn't see him in action for more than a century, but I'm sure he has some kinjutsu Kido he has never shown (and unfortunately will probably never show).

  7. #1071
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by ReiWen View Post
    No she coulnt. Yama would sense her even in his sleep and most likely someone as weak as VC wouldnt be even able to ct Yama even if Yama would do nothing.
    Sensing her is irrelevant. My point was entirely different. And I'm not sure if h would subconciously utilize reiatsu to toughen his skin. Not that it matters, really. I could write "SS arc Ichigo" and the point would be the same. Killing a sitting duck doesn't make you stronger than it.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Regarding Tousen;

    I believe Tousen had a narrow-minded perspective. He thought he was freely acting on behalf of his perception of justice, although, in reality, he was being used as a tool for Aizen's own plans. I don't find his reasoning something that justifies his actions. In fact, it looked like it was nothing more than a simple grudge for his late friend, who was killed by a single Shinigami. Yet, Tousen was at Aizen's side, who was going to blow up a million souls in human world where many innocent people lived. Bloodshed for higher justice is the justice itself could be a good mantra for some, but it's not for me.

    ---------- Post added at 05:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:54 AM ----------

    Regarding the plot armor;

    I'm with Duniak at this one. No significant fight was ended with people getting cut in the throat or in the head. The instances provided when I previously brought this up were either insignificant battles like Kenpachi vs SR, Ichigo vs Shaz Domino; or the battle didn't already end with that move like Kenpachi vs Nnoitra. Kenpachi vs Tousen was significant enough that it couldn't possibly end in a single panel.

  9. #1073
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member dex's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Regarding Tousen;

    I believe Tousen had a narrow-minded perspective. He thought he was freely acting on behalf of his perception of justice, although, in reality, he was being used as a tool for Aizen's own plans. I don't find his reasoning something that justifies his actions. In fact, it looked like it was nothing more than a simple grudge for his late friend, who was killed by a single Shinigami. Yet, Tousen was at Aizen's side, who was going to blow up a million souls in human world where many innocent people lived. Bloodshed for higher justice is the justice itself could be a good mantra for some, but it's not for me.

    tosen was aizens bitch ...lamest guy in bleach... aizen made him his subordinate coz he could not have been affetcted by KS... if tosen would have gone against aizens plans he would have died 100 years back... even when aizen revealed his true self to unohana for first time he addressed Gin as his only real vice captain... Tosen had to bow before aizen in fear while Gin always acted like himself and played with aizen (with words)...aizen was always amused with gin while he treated tosen as his errand boy...its been clearly shown that aizen chose Gin coz he liked him while he chose Tosen coz he could not be affected by KS and he thought to better recruit him than kill him... also like you said Tosen had no real justification behind his actions...he was a lameass from starting to end...even though his bankai was cool still his personality was annoying and full of loopholes...

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member eefrit's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    You guys truly love to make it hard for Tousen fans.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    I'm not Tousen's fan, nor I have anything to say about his strength. But the fact that Aizen defended him from Grimmjow means a lot to me, cuz Jow is one of my fav 5 in this manga.

  14. #1076
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member dex's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by eefrit View Post
    You guys truly love to make it hard for Tousen fans.
    oops ...my bad...maybe i was a bit too harsh...srry ...though i do find his bankai one of the coolest... and my first impression of tosen was cool captain during SS arc...idk it degraded with time due to his behavior and actions... but i understand i would feel bad if something bad is said about gin (my fav char)

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    I'm not Tousen's fan, nor I have anything to say about his strength. But the fact that Aizen defended him from Grimmjow means a lot to me, cuz Jow is one of my fav 5 in this manga.
    Aizen always weighed Tosen higher than hollows (espadas in this case)...after grrimjow disobeyed aizen he had to punish him and he used Tosen to do that...rem after the scene Gin meets aizen and says that aizen knew that Tosen was going to do that...Tosen exactly did what aizen was expecting of him...and aizen defended Tosen after that to avoid unnecessary fights... and i doubt Grimmjow could have defeated Tosen in 1 on 1 ...

  15. #1077
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by dex View Post
    Aizen always weighed Tosen higher than hollows (espadas in this case)...after grrimjow disobeyed aizen he had to punish him and he used Tosen to do that...rem after the scene Gin meets aizen and says that aizen knew that Tosen was going to do that...Tosen exactly did what aizen was expecting of him...and aizen defended Tosen after that to avoid unnecessary fights... and i doubt Grimmjow could have defeated Tosen in 1 on 1 ...
    Part of the reason why he defended Tousen was;
    1) To defend Grimmjow, so that he doesn't get killed.
    2) Most importantly, Tousen feeling a connection between their ideals, therefore, possessing the highest loyalty amongst his subordinates.

    ---------- Post added at 07:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eefrit View Post
    You guys truly love to make it hard for Tousen fans.
    I liked Tousen as a fighter. I just don't find anything acceptable within his philosophy. Same could be said of Aizen, though.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Roman's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    No disrespect to Tousen fans but I really think he was the weakest Captain yet. He's the only character which hollow powers made him look weaker than he already was. He really was pathetic 'till the end.

  18. #1079
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Ok so since you guys are arguing about a guy who is no longer a captain and is also dead, I figured I'd make a new list. (It should be noted this list is going to go off of hype and potential in some regards since we haven't seen many of the Captains Bankai yet.

    1.Shunsui Kyōraku - Current Captain Commander, and has more than enough power in Shikai to defeat the #1 Espada in Starrk. Really a no brainer at this point.

    2. Retsu Unohana - The original Kenpachi and one of the oldest Captains. Her calm demeanor now seems to hide something terrifying. She is the Himura Kenshin of the Captains I think.

    3. Kenpachi Zaraki - One of the great war potentials and possibly has the most raw power of any Captain. Even without his Bankai and full control of his Shikai he's a force to be reckoned with and is about to get a HELL of a lot stronger.

    4.Jūshirō Ukitake - Could be equal to Shunsui in power but I doubt it. His health is a major concern but he's still one of the senior most captains and had the respect of Yama.

    5. Shinji Hirako Simply a badass and he was the leader of Vizards and immediately took back his Captaincy. His Shikai is damn cool and again, another character yet to go Bankai.

    6. Byakuya Kuchiki - Despite getting owned by his own Bankai Byakuya is still a badass with very powerful Bankai and serious Kido moves.

    7.Tōshirō Hitsugaya - The prodigy, powerful Bankai and good skills even though he's young.

    8. Kensei Muguruma - Powerhouse with hollow powers and just another badass character.

    9. Rōjūrō Ōtoribashi - Even though he got owned in his last fight I'll give him the benefit of the doubt since we haven't seen his Bankai yet and he's a Vizard.

    10. Suì-Fēng - Speed demon assassin with a powerful Bankai that doesn't suite her. Can kick ass but obviously would get owned by 1-6.

    11. Mayuri Kurotsuchi The mad professor who uses brains much more than power to fight.

    12. Sajin Komamura Honestly think he's useless despite his strength. Renji will probably be more powerful than him and other captains after he gets back from the Royal Palace.
    Last edited by Delbi; January 10, 2013 at 12:22 PM.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  20. #1080
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    I don't think there is a single scenario in which renji would in some form or context be somewhat of a match for komamura. Komamura has fought aizen and a hollowified tousen both of whom have been extremely powerful enemies and it makes sense they would trash him easily. However komamura is indeed a captain level fighter who no single mere VC would ever have a chance against. The mere fact that renji has not so far mastered his bankai should be enough indication that komamura would clobber him. Even if renji gets his bankai fixed there is no reason for him to be able to stand up to the full might of komamura.

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