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Thread: Ranking of Captains

  1. #1081
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I don't think there is a single scenario in which renji would in some form or context be somewhat of a match for komamura. Komamura has fought aizen and a hollowified tousen both of whom have been extremely powerful enemies and it makes sense they would trash him easily. However komamura is indeed a captain level fighter who no single mere VC would ever have a chance against. The mere fact that renji has not so far mastered his bankai should be enough indication that komamura would clobber him. Even if renji gets his bankai fixed there is no reason for him to be able to stand up to the full might of komamura.
    Heh, we'll see. There is a reason Renji is with Ichigo, I'm willing to bet he gets a massive power boost.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Kubo said that Renjis Bankai have a new form already so I dont think that his power boost will be that big. His BK surelly will be more powerful when it be fixed, but still He have BK for only the same time as Ichigo and he is no Ichigo and no Hitsu he needs 10 years to get full control over his BK as for full power he needs a few centuries.
    As for Koma I dont see what so different about hm in comparsion to the other captains. If the captains will attack him the can winn but if they would try to attack KTM I dont think that would be easy. I dont see hitsu freezing KTM with Hyoutn Hakkasou. I cant see how Byakuya could stop KTM's blade with senbonzakura kageyoshi and if he cant block its a problem since he never use shunpo when in Bankai of course its nothing weird since his blades could hit hem if he does and Snekei and Hakuteken would be useles. He could try kido but its not like Koma would stand in one place and let himself being Bakudoed.
    I see no power difference between all the young captains. Zaraki will get more powerfull since Kubo for some reason seems to like him and than he will be up with the seniors but for now he is also nothing special just like everyone from Shinji to toshiro

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    i'm writing these ranks just with their powers of a pure shinigami (no hollowfication, hogyoku or whatsoever) and their best condition (no illness , aging etc.)
    maybe the ranks change, when more informations are revealed, but with the facts until now there might some leveled and not to be splitted more detailed. i'd say

    1. yamamoto - you know why... he is supposed to be the strongest. in his younger days, even more. and the thing why he got owned by bach is just that his bankai was stolen. and the loss against aizen was his wound against wonderweiss.
    2. kurosaki isshin - with the logic, that he fought alone against aizen, and made him reach his limit as a shinigami. second, aizen owned the most captains of the gotei 13 as a shinigami, alone. and he mentioned that his powers were less than the incident, where he lost his powers 20 years ago.
    3. aizen - as mentioned.. a badass by owning most of the gotei 13.
    4. each zero division captains - of course combined, they are supposed to be stronger than the gotei 13, but their position is acknowledged included wiht their inventions too. so individually, i think they are a less superior than aizen.
    5. sasakibe - he wasn't a captain but still, would be dishonoring, by not mentioning him. even though his bankai was stolen and died, the fact, that he achieved bankai so young, and without attending the genryu school, and making a scar to yamamoto in his younger days, makes him a badass, too.
    6. unohana - being revealed as the first kenpachi, says it all
    7. ukitake ,kyoraku, yoruichi and urahara - they didn't revelaed their bankais yet, but there will be reasons, as kyoraku's bankai should not be used when there are many people around. and thinking that ukitake and kyoraku are a duo. and still mysterious urahara with his kidous and knowledge and yoruichi's melee attacks and their bankai. i think, they all are in the same tier.
    8. ichimaru gin - he fought and owned ichigo with his hollowfication mask. of course, ichigo was at a whimming phase, but still. and of course kicked aizen, if he wasn't with the hogyoku
    9. byakuya and zaraki - their rivalies show, that they are even. but if zaraki learns even shikai, he might go between unohana and the quartett mentioned above.
    10. hirako and otoribashi - they too, are still hiding their bankai. otoribashi showed some guts against the quincys, without his bankai.
    11. hitsugaya - still young, but as kyoraku mentioned maybe in 100 years, he might overcome.
    12. komamura, soifong, mayuri and kensei - not much to tell. strong heart, intelligence and will to fight, and their own agendas.
    13. tousen and love - sorry but got owned against zaraki, and if there was no hollowfication, he would have been owned against komamura, too. and love, still without revelaing his bankai, just a hinch that their leveled
    14. madarame and renji - they are not captains, but still achieved bankai, so i think they are worth mentioning.
    Last edited by magicaurora; January 11, 2013 at 09:02 PM.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Hirako lower than Byakuya? That's some dope shit that you're smokin'. :O
    well at least, byakuya showed some kidous and shunpou.
    as i said. just with the facts until now. who knows what comes in the future

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by magicaurora View Post
    well at least, byakuya showed some kidous and shunpou.
    as i said. just with the facts until now. who knows what comes in the future
    Hirako showed "cutting Aizen with his Shikai without mask put on" and "pushing Grimmjow like a noob without using Shikai. Oh, he showed use "Shooting Cero, that could almost kill Grimmjow in one hit" as well. Oh, and he DID use Kido in TBTP.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Hirako showed "cutting Aizen with his Shikai without mask put on" and "pushing Grimmjow like a noob without using Shikai. Oh, he showed use "Shooting Cero, that could almost kill Grimmjow in one hit" as well. Oh, and he DID use Kido in TBTP.
    hey hey.. you need to read it more closely, pal
    i wrote just as a pure shinigami, in the first sentence.
    so no cero's and hollow powers. and grimmjow was back then a fallen sesta without resurrection and a arm.
    still no convincing that hirako is stronger. but just my opinion.
    don't need to be aggressive

  8. #1087
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by magicaurora View Post
    i'm writing these ranks just with their powers of a pure shinigami (no hollowfication, hogyoku or whatsoever) and their best condition (no illness , aging etc.)
    maybe the ranks change, when more informations are revealed, but with the facts until now there might some leveled and not to be splitted more detailed. i'd say

    1. yamamoto - you know why... he is supposed to be the strongest. in his younger days, even more. and the thing why he got owned by bach is just that his bankai was stolen. and the loss against aizen was his wound against wonderweiss.
    2. kurosaki isshin - with the logic, that he fought alone against aizen, and made him reach his limit as a shinigami. second, aizen owned the most captains of the gotei 13 as a shinigami, alone. and he mentioned that his powers were less than the incident, where he lost his powers 20 years ago.
    3. aizen - as mentioned.. a badass by owning most of the gotei 13.
    4. each zero division captains - of course combined, they are supposed to be stronger than the gotei 13, but their position is acknowledged included wiht their inventions too. so individually, i think they are a less superior than aizen.
    5. sasakibe - he wasn't a captain but still, would be dishonoring, by not mentioning him. even though his bankai was stolen and died, the fact, that he achieved bankai so young, and without attending the genryu school, and making a scar to yamamoto in his younger days, makes him a badass, too.
    6. unohana - being revealed as the first kenpachi, says it all
    7. ukitake ,kyoraku, yoruichi and urahara - they didn't revelaed their bankais yet, but there will be reasons, as kyoraku's bankai should not be used when there are many people around. and thinking that ukitake and kyoraku are a duo. and still mysterious urahara with his kidous and knowledge and yoruichi's melee attacks and their bankai. i think, they all are in the same tier.
    8. ichimaru gin - he fought and owned ichigo with his hollowfication mask. of course, ichigo was at a whimming phase, but still. and of course kicked aizen, if he wasn't with the hogyoku
    9. byakuya and zaraki - their rivalies show, that they are even. but if zaraki learns even shikai, he might go between unohana and the quartett mentioned above.
    10. hirako and otoribashi - they too, are still hiding their bankai. otoribashi showed some guts against the quincys, without his bankai.
    11. hitsugaya - still young, but as kyoraku mentioned maybe in 100 years, he might overcome.
    12. komamura, soifong, mayuri and kensei - not much to tell. strong heart, intelligence and will to fight, and their own agendas.
    13. tousen and love - sorry but got owned against zaraki, and if there was no hollowfication, he would have been owned against komamura, too. and love, still without revelaing his bankai, just a hinch that their leveled
    14. madarame and renji - they are not captains, but still achieved bankai, so i think they are worth mentioning.
    Given those conditions, I agree with most of your ranking. What about Tessai? I think he's up there with Urahara. I'd place Soifon abit higher since she did quite well agaisnt Yoruichi and managed to keep up with the second espada. She's not weaker than Byakuya for sure.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    the thing with tessai. he was in the kido corps. but still not revealed his zanpakto. and by watching hacchi, there might be none. so i ruled theim out. but if, hacchi and tessai might be on a level with unohana or a little above.
    and the thing with soifong is tricky. i agree, but her bankai is limited, so. but she may be even with byakuya's level if she completes the shunko.

  10. #1089
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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Hirako showed "cutting Aizen with his Shikai without mask put on" and "pushing Grimmjow like a noob without using Shikai. Oh, he showed use "Shooting Cero, that could almost kill Grimmjow in one hit" as well. Oh, and he DID use Kido in TBTP.
    To be fair, it was a Bakudo that dispelled Aizen's camouflage. I think he was referring to using Kido in combat situations.
    Then again, Kido usage isn't that frequent in a battle even for captain class Shinigami.
    And I would hardly consider Grimmjow a noteworthy opponent. He is at most Nnoitra level, which is still far below the top four Espada.
    Cutting Aizen was definitely a strong feat, though.

    ---------- Post added at 07:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by magicaurora View Post
    the thing with tessai. he was in the kido corps. but still not revealed his zanpakto. and by watching hacchi, there might be none. so i ruled theim out. but if, hacchi and tessai might be on a level with unohana or a little above.
    and the thing with soifong is tricky. i agree, but her bankai is limited, so. but she may be even with byakuya's level if she completes the shunko.
    Tessai probably doesn't use Zanpakuto. He relies on Kidou in battle, but we haven't seen him in combat, so, it's hard to gauge his power.

    ---------- Post added at 07:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:06 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by magicaurora View Post
    i'm writing these ranks just with their powers of a pure shinigami (no hollowfication, hogyoku or whatsoever) and their best condition (no illness , aging etc.)
    maybe the ranks change, when more informations are revealed, but with the facts until now there might some leveled and not to be splitted more detailed. i'd say

    1. yamamoto - you know why... he is supposed to be the strongest. in his younger days, even more. and the thing why he got owned by bach is just that his bankai was stolen. and the loss against aizen was his wound against wonderweiss.
    2. kurosaki isshin - with the logic, that he fought alone against aizen, and made him reach his limit as a shinigami. second, aizen owned the most captains of the gotei 13 as a shinigami, alone. and he mentioned that his powers were less than the incident, where he lost his powers 20 years ago.
    3. aizen - as mentioned.. a badass by owning most of the gotei 13.
    4. each zero division captains - of course combined, they are supposed to be stronger than the gotei 13, but their position is acknowledged included wiht their inventions too. so individually, i think they are a less superior than aizen.
    5. sasakibe - he wasn't a captain but still, would be dishonoring, by not mentioning him. even though his bankai was stolen and died, the fact, that he achieved bankai so young, and without attending the genryu school, and making a scar to yamamoto in his younger days, makes him a badass, too.
    6. unohana - being revealed as the first kenpachi, says it all
    7. ukitake ,kyoraku, yoruichi and urahara - they didn't revelaed their bankais yet, but there will be reasons, as kyoraku's bankai should not be used when there are many people around. and thinking that ukitake and kyoraku are a duo. and still mysterious urahara with his kidous and knowledge and yoruichi's melee attacks and their bankai. i think, they all are in the same tier.
    8. ichimaru gin - he fought and owned ichigo with his hollowfication mask. of course, ichigo was at a whimming phase, but still. and of course kicked aizen, if he wasn't with the hogyoku
    9. byakuya and zaraki - their rivalies show, that they are even. but if zaraki learns even shikai, he might go between unohana and the quartett mentioned above.
    10. hirako and otoribashi - they too, are still hiding their bankai. otoribashi showed some guts against the quincys, without his bankai.
    11. hitsugaya - still young, but as kyoraku mentioned maybe in 100 years, he might overcome.
    12. komamura, soifong, mayuri and kensei - not much to tell. strong heart, intelligence and will to fight, and their own agendas.
    13. tousen and love - sorry but got owned against zaraki, and if there was no hollowfication, he would have been owned against komamura, too. and love, still without revelaing his bankai, just a hinch that their leveled
    14. madarame and renji - they are not captains, but still achieved bankai, so i think they are worth mentioning.
    I liked the list a lot. Nicely put.
    The only things I could disagree with are (if I were to speak about my perceptions);
    a) Hirako is probably above Rose.
    b) Yoruichi is probably not on par with the other three, a tier below.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by magicaurora View Post
    hey hey.. you need to read it more closely, pal
    i wrote just as a pure shinigami, in the first sentence.
    so no cero's and hollow powers. and grimmjow was back then a fallen sesta without resurrection and a arm.
    still no convincing that hirako is stronger. but just my opinion.
    don't need to be aggressive
    Yup, disregard his main ability, that makes him senior captain tier, if not higher. Still, he was faster than Grimmjow without mask, and with Shikai he would still be stronger than this idiot. Shinji vs Aizen was enough to make him stronger than Byakuya. He cut Aizen, who couldn't be cut by anyone. He was fighting with Gin without their Shikais, could keep up without problem, unlike Ichigo, who was being pushed when Gin decided to go "ol' fashioned way". And from what we've seen, he was fighting SR, had some bruises, but he and Hinamori were OK, and were searching for more SR. He wasn't scared of them, it was "fun" for him.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    To be fair, it was a Bakudo that dispelled Aizen's camouflage. I think he was referring to using Kido in combat situations.
    Then again, Kido usage isn't that frequent in a battle even for captain class Shinigami.
    And I would hardly consider Grimmjow a noteworthy opponent. He is at most Nnoitra level, which is still far below the top four Espada.
    Cutting Aizen was definitely a strong feat, though.

    ---------- Post added at 07:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:05 AM ----------



    Tessai probably doesn't use Zanpakuto. He relies on Kidou in battle, but we haven't seen him in combat, so, it's hard to gauge his power.

    ---------- Post added at 07:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:06 AM ----------



    I liked the list a lot. Nicely put.
    The only things I could disagree with are (if I were to speak about my perceptions);
    a) Hirako is probably above Rose.
    b) Yoruichi is probably not on par with the other three, a tier below.
    yeah... all the former captains have still revealed themselves too less. so a little hard to measure. but i'm sure, there will come plenty of awesome things!

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by magicaurora View Post
    the thing with tessai. he was in the kido corps. but still not revealed his zanpakto. and by watching hacchi, there might be none. so i ruled theim out. but if, hacchi and tessai might be on a level with unohana or a little above.
    and the thing with soifong is tricky. i agree, but her bankai is limited, so. but she may be even with byakuya's level if she completes the shunko.
    Just to point out...

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-670-15...apter-216.html

    Hachi has a Zanpakuto. So we can assume that the same applies to other Kido Corps members including Tessai. But I would guess they are different from the soldiers of the Gotei 13 in that their Kido skills outweigh the powers of their Zanpakutos.

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    Just to point out...

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-670-15...apter-216.html

    Hachi has a Zanpakuto. So we can assume that the same applies to other Kido Corps members including Tessai. But I would guess they are different from the soldiers of the Gotei 13 in that their Kido skills outweigh the powers of their Zanpakutos.
    I see seven swords in the picture. The ones that belong to Rose, Lisa, Kensei, Mashiro, Love, Shinji are the ones I'm able to distinguish. Just can't get who holds the right-most katana that extends in front of Love's knee. Is it the one you think that belongs to Hachi?

    ---------- Post added at 12:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 PM ----------

    Never mind. I found a clear picture of it now. He has indeed a Zanpakuto.
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-11424-...apter-366.html

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Yup, thank you, exactly my point. It doesn't all come down to strength, so judging strength by that is plain wrong.
    No, that wasn't your point. You claimed that somebody else claimed for those characters to be weak, translating "helpless to weak" and then using that to make fun of them as always.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Long story short, Tousen doesn't follow a path of justice. He follows the path of revenge bloodshed but tries to justify it with morality and rightousness. Nowhere near real justice. He proved it with his monologue to Grimmjow. His talk before Ressurection was proof of him totally losing it to revenge. He called his revenge "justice" to justify what he did and was going to do. Saying revenge required bloodshed, so NOT liking bloodshed, and calling REVENGE a JUSTICE is nonsense and wrong. It's his pitiful attempt to justify his actions.
    He followed a path of justice because it was everything he had left. There's no trying to justify it. Kenpachi was a bloodthirsty killer and had betrayed the Gotei for the sake of getting into more fights, which goes against that same thing Tousen was talking about during that Grimmjow incident so Tousen decided he had to be executed. Grimmjow had disobeyed Aizen and sent his own followers to their deaths, which also went against the righteous path, so he deserved punishment.

    Then it's his revenge part. Tousen's friend and another Shinigami were killed, and the guy responsible wasn't punished. What is justice? According to Tousen, forgiving somebody is virtuous, not just. Killing somebody responsible for the suffering of others is just. And if you go by the dictionary definition of "justice":

    1
    a : the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments
    b : judge
    c : the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity
    2
    a : the quality of being just, impartial, or fair
    b (1) : the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2) : conformity to this principle or ideal : righteousness

    Then justice is to punish the criminal responsible for two deaths. Some guy killed a Shinigami and his own wife, which in turn caused the suffering of their family and friends including Tousen? Then the killer must die or receive severe punishment. Tousen's logic with revenge is the pure unadulterated definition of justice. So again, there's no "trying to justify" here, Tousen has a firm belief of what justice is, and is going to follow it until the world ends. And then you say he doesn't like bloodshed even though he wants revenge, when in reality Tousen acknowledges that bloodshed is a necessary evil and he plans to follow the path with the least bloodshed. So in an ironic turn it's all just you trying to justify your claim by going against the very definition of such a widespread concept.

    And I've got a few more points here, but I'm going to resume with them as soon as I get to that part where you mention Aizen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    I wrote, that IMO he is 9th/10th captain. I think Yamaji, Aizen, Unohana, Shunsui, Ukitake, Gin, Kenpachi and Byakuya are stronger than him.
    With no reason or proof whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    First panel, Kenpachi speaking, not really good source of proof. He is an idiot.
    Second panel, I think you misunderstood. He said he was afraid of DYING AS A SHINIGAMI, not dying itself. He meant he was afraid of not becoming something more than a shinigami before his death.
    If he believed Aizen will carry his will and achieve his goal, he would give up his life for Aizen's. That is, if Aizen was in grave danger.
    First, Kenpachi is not an idiot, he acts like one. He can also give some good insight once in a while.
    Second, there's translations that say otherwise:

    Flashback!Tousen: Oh, I have fear. // For the past hundred years, I have been afraid... / ...afraid of dying like the rest of you Shinigami.
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-41110-...apter-384.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...7-page-21.html

    In the sense that he didn't want to die as a Shinigami. Not just becoming a Shinigami, he even mentioned that next chapter, but DYING. He had a goal he felt was above himself, and that was to preserve justice for the sake of his friend, just like Gin didn't want to die because he felt he had to fulfill his promise to Rangiku. "Fear of death" doesn't actually translate directly to "afraid of dying", especially in the case of those two.

    Third, Tousen wouldn't sacrifice himself for anybody without making sure his goal was fulfilled first. Justice is more important for him than anything else, and he's just following Aizen because he's the most just of the two parties. And now unto Aizen...

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Tousen is a hypocrite. His path required lots of bloodshed that he tried to justify.
    His path required exactly two victims: His friend's husband and the Spirit King, both which were completely justified, as his friend's husband had killed and deserved retribution, and the King as it would change the system, which Aizen wanted to kill. Everybody else that died was simple collateral damage and mostly because they were in the way, and most didn't die by Tousen's hand.
    By the way, collateral damage for a greater cause is pretty much Soul Society's method of peace. You can say Aizen experimented with many Hollows and spirits (which didn't actually die), killed the Central 46 (will stop at nothing to preserve order, which doesn't translate to just) and wanted to use 100,000 souls for the key (which was not actually killing them, but creating new life, which doesn't look like much considering how Soul Society won't hesitate to kill 30,000 souls without or millions of Hollows or mod souls).

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Aizen's path wasn't rightous. Maybe it was, for him. He didn't care about others and would do anything for power and to achieve his goal.
    And I don't have shred of doubt WHY Tousen joined Aizen. Aizen used it against him and gained pretty strong, loyal follower.
    Aizen's path was the most righteous and the one with the least bloodshed. You have to compare Aizen's method to the Gotei 13's to see how obvious it is.
    Remember all those Quincy? They faced systematic genocide and the few survivors were
    Remember the mod souls? All destroyed against their will despite being no different than normal souls.
    Remember all those misfit Shinigami? Imprisoned against their will for the rest of their lives despite not doing anything.
    All those Hollow who give up on eating souls and try to leave peacefully in groups or alone? Killed alongside normal hollows without discrimination.
    A substitute Shinigami appears? Lie to him and use him as bait, then kill him.
    Citizens of Rukongai? Soul Society is a hellhole with no effort from the Shinigami to improve them.
    A potential threat appears? Kill kill kill!

    Meanwhile, what did Aizen do? He wanted to kill the Soul Kings and change the world to how it should be. Remember how he asked Urahara why he didn't take action? It implies that Aizen didn't think that only himself could make a change. This was a great motivation for many Shinigami and Hollows. All those misfit Shinigami who would be forced to imprisonment? Aizen recruited them, made them feel safer. All those Hollows in constant fear of being killed by either Shinigami or other Hollow, who were always forced to survive in a barren wasteland? Aizen gave them a home, security and a purpose. To him everybody was equal, no discrimination or any other view the Shinigami had. And then, when he was faced with the remaining Gotei 13? He didn't kill them, because he didn't have to, he allowed them to live because his only target for a hundred years had been the Soul King. Remember Tousen's words? If you do, then good, you will see how Aizen's path is the most righteous, not without some questionable actions, but still better than the Gotei's nonetheless. Aizen was a man of action, not words. If he said something was because he would do it and he did follow through until Ichigo got in way, and that's what convinced Tousen.

    ---------- Post added at 02:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Regarding Tousen;

    I believe Tousen had a narrow-minded perspective.
    Tousen's perspective in a nutshell:
    Equity and fairness is justice.
    Dictionary definition for justice:
    Equity and fairness is justice.

    Also: Senseless bloodshed: Bad. Bloodshed for a just reason: Righteous. It's not hard to understand at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    He thought he was freely acting on behalf of his perception of justice, although, in reality, he was being used as a tool for Aizen's own plans
    He was acting on his own accord. Aizen's orders were normally to go and inject people with Hollow juice or to stand by his side. Nobody forced Tousen to actually follow on his view on Justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I don't find his reasoning something that justifies his actions.
    Follow the more righteous path and kill those who don't follow a righteous path (Kenpachi, Grimmjow, his friend's husband). His reasoning is basically the definition of justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    In fact, it looked like it was nothing more than a simple grudge for his late friend, who was killed by a single Shinigami.
    He wanted to kill the killer (an action based on justice) and keep his friend's will alive. He disliked the Shinigami and wanted to distance himself from them, not kill them. Just a reminder that Aizen's goal was to kill the Soul King and everybody else got in his way and challenged him to a fight, when his plan was to walk unnoticed into Karakura and create the key.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Yet, Tousen was at Aizen's side, who was going to blow up a million souls in human world where many innocent people lived. Bloodshed for higher justice is the justice itself could be a good mantra for some, but it's not for me.
    No, not blow up, just transform those lives into a single form of life, which is different from plainly killing them. Innocent? Probably, but it's the only way for a greater justice. It's not like it was Aizen's fault that the King decided to surround his castle in a special realm, and if you look at the chapter where the process of creating the key was explained, Aizen looked at the method the last day before leaving Soul Society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Regarding the plot armor;

    I'm with Duniak at this one. No significant fight was ended with people getting cut in the throat or in the head. The instances provided when I previously brought this up were either insignificant battles like Kenpachi vs SR, Ichigo vs Shaz Domino; or the battle didn't already end with that move like Kenpachi vs Nnoitra. Kenpachi vs Tousen was significant enough that it couldn't possibly end in a single panel.
    And just because it doesn't happen in the manga doesn't mean you can just brush it aside when in a "Campo de Battallas" thread with a battle between two with no plot armor Tousen would end up as the victor simply because he wouldn't act stupid like he did in the manga.

    ---------- Post added at 02:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by dex View Post
    tosen was aizens bitch ...lamest guy in bleach...
    Tousen chose to follow Aizen based on his beliefs, and had his own freedom whilst working under him.

    Quote Originally Posted by dex View Post
    aizen made him his subordinate coz he could not have been affetcted by KS... if tosen would have gone against aizens plans he would have died 100 years back...
    But Tousen was loyal and wouldn't turn on Aizen, so why was he considered more valuable than anybody else but Gin? Aizen had plenty of loyal followers so why Tousen?

    Quote Originally Posted by dex View Post
    even when aizen revealed his true self to unohana for first time he addressed Gin as his only real vice captain...
    Tousen was already a captain. And why did Aizen say that the Espada had disappointed him then immediately after call Tousen and Gin to go back to his side? Or why did Aizen defend Tousen? It's because Tousen was just as valuable as Gin.

    Quote Originally Posted by dex View Post
    Tosen had to bow before aizen in fear while Gin always acted like himself and played with aizen (with words)
    There's a difference. Tousen directly disobeyed Aizen's command and kept pushing the conversation in the wrong way, while Gin obeyed Aizen no matter what. When did Gin ever do something against Aizen's words? He kept his normal attitude alright, but he never kept going after Aizen told him to drop it and stand back, instead obeying right away.

    Quote Originally Posted by dex View Post
    aizen was always amused with gin while he treated tosen as his errand boy
    Gin was also his errand boy, going around doing stuff too. If Aizen was amused by Gin and not Tousen was because Gin's personality was unusual.

    Quote Originally Posted by dex View Post
    its been clearly shown that aizen chose Gin coz he liked him while he chose Tosen coz he could not be affected by KS and he thought to better recruit him than kill him
    Aizen found Tousen valuable beyond just recruiting him based on his immunity towards KS. And it's actually reversed. Tousen was the true valuable asset while Gin was recruited because he would eventually try to kill him.

    Quote Originally Posted by dex View Post
    also like you said Tosen had no real justification behind his actions
    Commit an unrighteous action = punishment <--- Tousen's logic. There's no "justification" because it was the very definition of justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by dex View Post
    he was a lameass from starting to end
    You don't even understand his character of his presence so it's not like you have a right to speak about him like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by dex View Post
    his personality was annoying and full of loopholes...
    Nope. "Unrighteous is bad" is his motto.

    ---------- Post added at 02:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    No disrespect to Tousen fans but I really think he was the weakest Captain yet.
    There's absolutely no reason to believe this, especially when there's so much more pointing towards him being capable of taking down high level fighters with ease.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    He's the only character which hollow powers made him look weaker than he already was.
    And this plainly goes against the manga, which clearly shows how his Hollowfication made him much stronger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    He really was pathetic 'till the end.
    He was somebody who fought for his ideals until the end.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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    Re: Ranking of Captains

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    No, that wasn't your point. You claimed that somebody else claimed for those characters to be weak, translating "helpless to weak" and then using that to make fun of them as always.
    Oh, of course it was. Go few posts back and see what I did there.



    Quote Quote:
    He followed a path of justice because it was everything he had left. There's no trying to justify it. Kenpachi was a bloodthirsty killer and had betrayed the Gotei for the sake of getting into more fights, which goes against that same thing Tousen was talking about during that Grimmjow incident so Tousen decided he had to be executed. Grimmjow had disobeyed Aizen and sent his own followers to their deaths, which also went against the righteous path, so he deserved punishment.

    Then it's his revenge part. Tousen's friend and another Shinigami were killed, and the guy responsible wasn't punished. What is justice? According to Tousen, forgiving somebody is virtuous, not just. Killing somebody responsible for the suffering of others is just. And if you go by the dictionary definition of "justice":

    1
    a : the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments
    b : judge
    c : the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity
    2
    a : the quality of being just, impartial, or fair
    b (1) : the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2) : conformity to this principle or ideal : righteousness

    Then justice is to punish the criminal responsible for two deaths. Some guy killed a Shinigami and his own wife, which in turn caused the suffering of their family and friends including Tousen? Then the killer must die or receive severe punishment. Tousen's logic with revenge is the pure unadulterated definition of justice. So again, there's no "trying to justify" here, Tousen has a firm belief of what justice is, and is going to follow it until the world ends. And then you say he doesn't like bloodshed even though he wants revenge, when in reality Tousen acknowledges that bloodshed is a necessary evil and he plans to follow the path with the least bloodshed. So in an ironic turn it's all just you trying to justify your claim by going against the very definition of such a widespread concept.

    And I've got a few more points here, but I'm going to resume with them as soon as I get to that part where you mention Aizen.
    Daaamn, tl;dr. For Tousen it was justice, but his version of justice was corrupted and wrong. Your whole post doesn't change anything.



    Quote Quote:
    With no reason or proof whatsoever.
    Do you know what "IMO" means? You can't prove to me, that he's stronger as well. ^^



    Quote Quote:
    First, Kenpachi is not an idiot, he acts like one. He can also give some good insight once in a while.
    Second, there's translations that say otherwise:
    In terms of intelligence, he is an idiot. When it comes to fighting, he is experienced fighter, but not intelligent.

    Quote Quote:
    Flashback!Tousen: Oh, I have fear. // For the past hundred years, I have been afraid... / ...afraid of dying like the rest of you Shinigami.
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-41110-...apter-384.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...7-page-21.html

    In the sense that he didn't want to die as a Shinigami. Not just becoming a Shinigami, he even mentioned that next chapter, but DYING.
    If that translation is correct than I might agree with that ONE panel, out of 2 you showed. Translation is to be blamed then.
    Last edited by Duniak; January 12, 2013 at 04:01 PM.

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