Is Zaraki Kenpachi permanently in Shikai or not?

[TheChosenOne]

Yeah but they were talking about bankai, not shikai. It would be kind of dumb to say every captain can do shikai and bankai except one. Conversation during that point is more focused on bankai and doesn't necessarily mean anything in regards to shikai. It doesn't ever say that every captain can do shikai, and again when explaining and introducing what bankai is and how powerful it is or what it does, talking about shikai all of a sudden kind of goes off topic and doesn't help the shock or surprise of the characters learning about bankai.

Well to have bankai you just have shikai. So when yoruichi said that every captain has bankai (exception ken) she means that they also have shikai, since its a prerequisite. So if kenpachi does not have shikai, then her statement would have been false since kenpachi does not meet the requirement.

[Travis]

The second link I posted has a direct translation of the databook.


I fail to see how gaining powers would mean that it is not fully released. Rukia developed her zanpakutou's abilities with Kaien, does that mean her zanpakutou was not released before she developed them? She also developed a third dance after Kaien's death, does that mean she didn't have a shikai until then? If you were to think like that, nobody in the Bleach world has a release, because they can always develop new powers.

About the second link. I don't know that conversation is a little confusing. I first clicked on it and scrolled somewhere else or something that came to the Yoruichi and Ichigo conversation so I didn't think anythinig of it at first.

It appears from that conversation that the zanpaktou itself is in shikai, but it's useless or it's just the form of his shikai. He doesn't really have the strength of the shikai or something like that. So it could be interpreted as him not actually having achieved shikai but his sword is just in the form or looks like a shikai. Interesting theory, that could be interpreted as Kenpachi still just needs to achieve his shikai even though his sword looks like it's in shikai. He doesn't have the power of shikai. Don't really like that theory myself but oh well.

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Well to have bankai you just have shikai. So when yoruichi said that every captain has bankai (exception ken) she means that they also have shikai, since its a prerequisite. So if kenpachi does not have shikai, then her statement would have been false since kenpachi does not meet the requirement.

That's flawed logic really. No offense.

Bad example, but don't want to think too hard about this. If I say you get flour (shikai), then you make a cake(bankai), and everyone make a cake except for Kenpachi, that doesn't mean he has flour or not. It can be used in a variety of cases irl. They'll use questiong kind of like these on tests, to test your logic skills.

[TheChosenOne]

The form is shikai it does not matter about its strength or attacks. Look at ichigo's bankai he did not know how to do bankai GT, so does that mean he did not have bankai against byakuya. He did not learn GT until his training, does that mean fought against ken,ikkaku and renji without shikai. Does that mean he only unlocked shikai after the training.

[Travis]

Hey I'm not the translator who discussed it. Click on the link yourself to see.
According to them every shikai has an ability. Kenpachi has none. They go on to talk about it being in the form of shikai but just useless when interpretting the translation of it, they appear to be translators discussing the databook.

Every shikai we've seen has an ability or does something. I guess Kenpachi's does none or we haven't been told by Kubo what Kenpachi's does during his fights. Ichigo used GT on that Menos I think. So I'm not really sure about that being his shikai ability. Maybe you can use a shikai ability without releasing your zanpaktou. It just gets easier or stronger when it's released. Kind of like learning the name of hte attack. Anyways, Ichigo uses his GT right after releasing also, so I don't really know. Sounds like a shikai is pretty useless wihtout learning it's ability or what you can do with it. It's a little confusing now to think about it. Because now it sounds like his zanpakutou is released and but he's gaining nothing from it, so it almost sounds like he could be fighting the same with a regular zanpakuto.

My head hurts. hehe

[TheChosenOne]

@Travis

Yoruichi said that every captain except ken has bankai. So that means every captain has cake mix (bankai) except for ken. Since cake mix needs eggs (shikai) to form a cake, its logical to understand than every captain except ken has cake mix (bankai), but its also logical to understand that all the captains have eggs (shikai). Since yoruichi only talked about ken not having cake mix (bankai).

I was responding to what you said earlier about shikai needing to gain powers to be fully released.

[Travis]

It's a possibility he has shikai or not. There isn't enough information to determine what Ken has. I'm telling you've I seen questions like that on tests on logic. If you try to determine what Ken has in that instance, you would get it wrong because there isn't enough information to say whether or not he has eggs (shikai) in the information given. You can only determine he doesn't have cake (bankai) because of that one statement.

[Neuroff]

It appears from that conversation that the zanpaktou itself is in shikai, but it's useless or it's just the form of his shikai. He doesn't really have the strength of the shikai or something like that. So it could be interpreted as him not actually having achieved shikai but his sword is just in the form or looks like a shikai. Interesting theory, that could be interpreted as Kenpachi still just needs to achieve his shikai even though his sword looks like it's in shikai. He doesn't have the power of shikai. Don't really like that theory myself but oh well.

Really, the only thing that matters is Kenpachi's zanpakutou is in it's shikai form.

Hey I'm not the translator who discussed it. Click on the link yourself to see.
According to them every shikai has an ability. Kenpachi has none. They go on to talk about it being in the form of shikai but just useless when interpretting the translation of it, they appear to be translators discussing the databook.

I read through most of that thread a while ago, nobody posting there is a translator. The only thing that matters is the conversation with njt. Every shikai having an ability is an excuse of the people who think Kenpachi doesn't have a shikai.

Every shikai we've seen has an ability or does something. I guess Kenpachi's does none or we haven't been told by Kubo what Kenpachi's does during his fights. Ichigo used GT on that Menos I think. So I'm not really sure about that being his shikai ability. Maybe you can use a shikai ability without releasing your zanpaktou. It just gets easier or stronger when it's released. Kind of like learning the name of hte attack. Anyways, Ichigo uses his GT right after releasing also, so I don't really know. Sounds like a shikai is pretty useless wihtout learning it's ability or what you can do with it. It's a little confusing now to think about it. Because now it sounds like his zanpakutou is released and but he's gaining nothing from it, so it almost sounds like he could be fighting the same with a regular zanpakuto.

My head hurts. hehe

This is where knowing your zanpakutou's name actually does mean something. Zangetsu says that Kenpachi's power is clashing with his zanpakutou's because they do not fight together. When Kenpachi does synchronize with his zanpakutou, he will gain a great amount of power. Communicating with his zanpakutou would also allow him to learn his znapakutou's abilities.

[TheChosenOne]

It's a possibility he has shikai or not. There isn't enough information to determine what Ken has. I'm telling you've I seen questions like that on tests on logic. If you try to determine what Ken has in that instance, you would get it wrong because there isn't enough information to say whether or not he has eggs (shikai) in the information given. You can only determine he doesn't have cake (bankai) because of that one statement.

What do you mean by there being not enough info on ken having shikai. I think its vice-versa. There isn't enough info on him not having shikai. The DATABOOKS, say he has shikai, yoruichi implies he has shikai, ichigo confirms that ken zanpak is full time released shikai like his. I don't understand how much more info you needs for it to be valid. I guess sinceit does not say in the manga outright, so does that man ichigo was not a vaizard till he met shinji. So does that mean Isshin was never a shinigami until grand fisher. Its a manga, the info is given over time, we can reach credible conclusions, a test is not informative, its a measurement. A manga is not something to measure ourselves, whats the comparison.

[henrikoez]

It is hard to determine Zaraki's Zanpakutou form. But i think it isn't Shikai form. Usually the shape of the sword will be different if it is in Shikai form and Kenpachi said that his sword isn't sealed during his battle with Ichigo. Ichigo's word during his Bankai training with Yoruichi can't prove anything since Ichigo didn't understand anything at that time.

[TheChosenOne]

Ichigo understood that his sword is a fulltime released shikai, and he made a comaprison with kenpachi's zanpak. What do you mean by the shape will be different, all the shikai have different shapes.

[njt]

I'm not a bleach nut and actually haven't read it since Kenpachi was out of it the first time, but I'm thinking they're trying to make a statement that he does have Shikai since it'd be odd to mention him in the first place if that wasn't what they were going for. but *shrug* i don't like databook japanese >.>

[henrikoez]

What i mean is the shape of the sealed Zanpakutou(katana) and the Shikai form. There is no Shikai that has the shape and size of the katana. That's my point. Since Kenpachi's form is katana, so i say that it isn't in Shikai form. I hope you can see my point of view. XD.

[TheChosenOne]

@njt

Is there a link to a translated version of the bleach databook. The one I downloaded was in Japanese. If you can find one or know where too, it will be greatly appreciated.

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What i mean is the shape of the sealed Zanpakutou(katana) and the Shikai form. There is no Shikai that has the shape and size of the katana. That's my point. Since Kenpachi's form is katana, so i say that it isn't in Shikai form. I hope you can see my point of view. XD.

Well what about ichigo's bankai, it takes a form of a katana, which is a first. There are variations of the katan shape, like kira's zanpak is basically a katana with twice bended front edge. Rukia's shikai takes on the katana shape but its just white.

[njt]

Nah, not that i know of. The page I got was Japanese and that's how i translated it.

[TheChosenOne]

Do you have a link to the translated page. Do you know which forum it would be, thanks.