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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
I mean, i understand how each shinigami receives one for graduating, but I really don't understand how they are made...I mean like i know that they are each sealed w/ a spirit, but where does that spirit come from? Does the shinigami get a zanpaktu by random or something? I mean, does that mean whoever has the strongest bankai got it out of pure luck? I'm kinda confused about this so if someone would clear it up for me it would be nice...
^ You know what? I've been reading the series for years, but I don't have a straight answer to give you.
We know that there's a school where they teach you everything. And we know that a prerequisite for enrollment is strong spiritual power. But there's nothing in the mythology about why everyone with high spirit power can't become shinigami. Just look at Orihime and Chad.
There's an ambiguity to it. Zangetsu says that Ichigo had specific "Shinigami powers", but it didn't seem like most Academy graduates had stuff like that. You could say that Kubo just didn't have time to cover it, but it looked as though high spirit power was the only prerequisite for getting in. So I guess it's Lamarkian, in that people can become shinigami through training then pass it to their kids, like Isshin did with Ichigo.
Kubo has never gone into how people get their powers from scratch. That's one thing I really want to see before the series ends.
EDIT: Actually, Ukitake said Orihime and Co. could become "formidable Shinigami with the right traning". So I figure it IS something everyone can learn, with enough reiatsu. But still, we never found out the actual method.
Last edited by gigantor21; October 29, 2007 at 09:21 PM.
hmmm. that cleared up some of my questions...
but there is one more thing that remains unknown to me.....
How do you know which spirit enters the sword, and where do they get these spirits from anyways? Like renjis is a baboon with a snake tail. I really dont know where they got that spirit from.
oh yeah another question
/\ Hypothetically, lets say that I become a shinigami. Upon graduation, i get a zanpaktu. Where would my sword's spirit come from, and if there was a source for sword spirits, how would they decide which spirit I get?
i know that im being overly stupid right now, but its just been bugging me ever since i thought of it last night in the shower XD.
the spirit from the zanpakuto comes from your own spirit, as do the sword, the zanpakuto and the spirit are just a part of the shinigami's soul....
This is one aspect of the story that has only ever been hinted at, presumably never answered in full to allow kubo the maximum room to move in future, so as not to create some kind of rule that prevents him from creating a new character that then breaks that rule....or maybe gig's closer to the truth, and he didn't have time to cover it >.<
Another thing to note is that it seems kubo's direction and ideas or concepts for his character's powers have changed over time, which might be expected in some ways. If an author writes a book within a set period of time, you might expect the book to have few or no inconsistancies. Comic book and Manga Artists not only write their chapters on a weekly basis, subject to changes in their own ideas about where the series is going, but also that of popular support. For example, Hitsugaya turned out to be the more popular captain in the shounen jump polls, and ended up not only heading up an advanced squad against that arrancar, but has the next movie centered around his character.
But unfortunatly, perhaps i've digressed thus far.
From what I can understand about the series, each shinigami starts with a bare, soulless sword, which over time, and with training, has the potential become an extension of the shinigami's soul. This is when they have reached their shikai release, and it is reflected in the nature of the sword's physical appearance when it is resealed into it's lowest form.
Note that none of the standard squad members have any unique characteristics to their swords, whereas people that have reached their shikai have unique hilt-guards, handle colours and overall shapes of their swords. The actual seals placed upon the sword to reflect size and such are perhaps dependant on spirit power vs. experience, and ichigo's original sword form is merely an example of an inbalance in those two factors
One thing to remember is that a shinigami's shikai and bankai is not dependant upon their sword, so much as their own power. Avatars such as Zabimaru and Zangetsu are only avatars that personify their shinigami's powers. They dont exist as seperate entities.
Upon reflection of that point, I realise that is how tousen's shikai and bankai are his own, despite taking up the sword of his dead shinigami friend. If we look at the pictures of him taking up the sword, and those of him in a present sense, there is little similarity, and it is become a sword unique to tousen, shown by the large circular ring on their hiltguard.
Of course, whether my deductions are accurate or not is really anyone's guess, given kubo doesn't determine a rule behind these factors. However, i believe that is about as close to the truth as we can probably get with the current information.
hmmmm...well thnx for the info
now my understanding of zanpaktu is this-> zanpaktus are like play doh. They can be molded to best represent the sculptor, or in our case, the shinigami. So like for tosen, the other person's zanpaktu effectively became his after he took it.
but, in response to the above, if the avatars dont exist as seperate entities, how did zangetsu give ichigo some of his power during the first kenpachi fight?
That can only really be explained as his shinigami powers accessed the vast reserve of power he had and used it entirely to overpower Kenpachi. The reason he has such reserves has thus far only be explined by the fact he has an obviously powerful father that he has inherited not only his shinigami powers, but strength as well from. That said, note that ichigo's crazy powerful aura during the final charge against zaraki had the outline of his hollow mask within it. Suffice to say, during the SS arc, his latent hollow powers surfaced multiple times to ensure his survival.
^ Your origin hypothesis seems dead on. I can't think of anyone presenting a better one...maybe not even Kubo.
And I think that his hollow power has been surfacing as early as Volumes 6. Remember the Renji fight? That random power-up and attitude change seemed very Shirosaki-ish, albeit not as blatant as the Byakuya case. The whole part wouldn't make sense if he wasn't behind it.
I expect us to get insight into it, like many other things, in the middle of a fight. So there will be plenty of opportunities for that in the rest of this Arc and the War.
Your avatar is still hilarious, BTW.
Hate to go off topic, but does anyone recognize what anime Gigantor's 21 Sig is from?
Also isn't a zanpaktu just physical manifestation of a shinigami's souls?
^ Death Note, episodes 31. It's when Mikami is first introduced, in the last 5 minutes.
And that is what it is. But we never found out how people manifest it in the first place; Ichigo's the only one we've seen learn this stuff, and he inherited his powers from Isshin. It's not like he got them from scratch.
hmmmm... ok. I get it.
That also explains how uruharas zanpaktu comes in a cane ... veeerrry interesting.
i think the whole zanpaktu thing is a humongous plot hole, and i think even kubo realized this beacause when he created the arrancar they had zanpaktu's but theirs were their own powers sealed in sword form.
makes much more sense than the shinigami version of zampaktu where ichigo has a human in his sword, renji has a labratory chimp, toshirou has an ice demon and theres no hint watsover how any of them got that way
The zanpaktou is a part of the owner's soul, therefore the baboon+snake, the zangetsu guy and all of the other "spirits" of the swords, are just part of their owner's own souls (that's why ichigo had 2 guys in his sword, one guy was the part of his shinigamished soul, and the other, his hollowish). It has also been stated that because the sword is part of your soul, the owner never feels any uneasiness carrying it, no matter how heavy or w.e it is.
The facts as far i know them:
1. a shinigami recieves a real zanpakatou when his shinigami soul decides when he does deserve one
2. a shinigami his zanpakatou is bound to its owner (meaning the soul and shinigami soul)
3. the zanpakatou is able to repair itself (with help from the shinigami soul)
4. the zanpakatou from a shinigami is its primary weapon and is sealed within its lowest level and can be unsealed with enough training (into shikai and bankai), when unsealed the shinigami soul releases its power and grants them to the shinigami making them able to kill their foes.
5. the arrancar zanpakatou seals the arrancar true power to unleash it when needed.
i think this also makes clear how a zanpakatou works and how its created and fixed.
I guess it's just as darkbass wroteLike in the episode, when Ichigo fought with Zangetsu to achive Bankai it occured that his Zanpaktu is not a piece steel, or in other episode when he had to overcome the hollow within him/his Zanpaktu; that in fact the Zanpaktu is part of Shinigami, and it [he/Zanpaktu] embodies the power of it's owner (wielder sounds better) but that it also influences Shinigami's look and actions as well.Quote:
I consider hipotesis, that Zanpaktu and Shinigami (and so is Hollow, I guess) are parts of the same being, very probable - it may be related to ego (Shinigami/Soul), superego(Zanpaktou) and Id (Hollow) which is in fact my theory (as in ["slightly" anachronic] Freud's theory)