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Thread: Yamamoto: Underestimated or Overhyped?

  1. #31
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Neuroff's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto: Underestimated or Overhyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by Travis View Post
    There were several captains going in and out of Central 46 during the SS arc. Atleast Yamamoto and Byakuya were going in and out. Feeling reiatsu seems to be a kind of feeling/touch sense. So it wouldn't be odd for him to simulate that feeling and make people sense the same reiatsu given off from those judges. Soul society is considered all the people inside those walls right? Not the people outside of them? Anyways I figured all those that were inside of Soul Society were soul reapers or at one time soul reapers. Even if thats not the case, even humans, and souls in Rukongai have some form of reiatsu even if it's very little.
    If sensing reiatsu was included in the 5 senses, Tousen wouldn't specifically say that his bankai blocks off his opponents ability to sense reiatsu.

    Not everyone is necessarily a shinigami. The nobles are born in Seireitei, and do not have to become shinigami. I'd have to say that the central 46 is pretty much made up of nobles, their purpose is to govern, not to protect. It's also likely that the walls would be made of sekiseki, to keep reiatsu from the outside from bothering them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Travis View Post
    I should also mention that there was always either Gin, Tousen, or Aizen in there for most of the time, I'm guessing they were hiding their presence, especially Aizen when he was dead. If he can't simulate or do anything with reiatsu then he probably can't hide it. It can be argued that they all just hid their reiatsu, but even Kenpachi detected Captains that were hiding their presence even though he says he has never been very good at detecting reiatsu. I just really think detecting or feeling a person's reiatsu has something ot do with the feeling/touching sense.
    I'd again have to attribute the lack of reiatsu sensing to the walls being made of sekiseki and the low reiatsu of the Central 46 members. Kenpachi was able to sense the people hiding out, but they were also very near his own location. The Central 46 is behind a locked door and down a long staircase to the underground chambers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Travis View Post
    And even if Aizen can't simulate reiatsu to make someone kneel, he could simulate a ton of weight on your shoulders or make you feel that and you would kneel. Same thing. Of course we probably wouldn't see something like that because it would ruin the manga if someone could do that every fight. Right now we've just kind of seen him vanish in front of some people and beat them in one strike.
    What Aizen says is that the person will misinterpret what their senses tell them about objects. He couldn't just simulate weight out of nothing. He could put a heavy object on top of Grimmjow, but then he would see it. He would also know that it was mass rather than reiatsu.

  2. #32
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Yamamoto: Underestimated or Overhyped?

    What I'm saying is that Yamamoto and Byakuya would have had to meet with Central 46. So I don't see why the sekki stone has anything to do with it. Yamamoto would have had to receive orders on Rukia's execution, maybe more were there. Byakuya went there to try and get leniency for Rukia's sentence.

    Aizen wouldn't have had to use hypnosis to make everyday activities go on in Central 46 if there was no one coming or going. Nobles are also born with very high reiatsu. So if they were in Central 46 they would have a even more noticeable reiatsu than probably most shinigami, the unseated ones atleast. Doesn't really matter though.

    About the turn nothing into an object. We don't really know that yet. He could for all we know be able to conjure up mulitple images of himself to his opponent that can be felt or smelt or whatever.

    He turns his zanpaktou into a corpse. He had to change its weight, feel, smell, and look to achieve that. I suppose it would have to make the proper sounds too. You still feel stuff even when you're doing nothing. If he can make you misinterpret those feelings then he could make you feel like your stomach aches or your arms weight a ton and you can't lift them. I think he could even manipulate a reiatsu into making someone kneel if he'd like but he could just use his own since it's so high. We really don't know the limits of his hypnosis ability yet.

    I'm also not saying he made Grimmjow kneel by making him feel a fake reiatsu or feel like there was an object on him. There are more to the 5 senses than you're thinking of. If he can make something feel like a boulder on your back, he can also change it so it looks invisible to your eyes.

    "Making you misinterpret your 5 senses" leaves a lot of room for what could and couldn't happen. It all depends on Kubo, I think.
    Last edited by Travis; December 10, 2007 at 02:20 AM.

  3. #33
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Neuroff's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto: Underestimated or Overhyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by Travis View Post
    What I'm saying is that Yamamoto and Byakuya would have had to meet with Central 46. So I don't see why the sekki stone has anything to do with it. Yamamoto would have had to receive orders on Rukia's execution, maybe more were there. Byakuya went there to try and get leniency for Rukia's sentence.
    Hitsugaya says that Central 46 was isolated at least since Renji lost to Ichigo, yet they were still issuing orders, such as the date changes on Rukia's execution. That means that they issue orders by messenger, not in person. There's nothing to suggest that either Yamamoto or Byakuya ever actually went inside the chambers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Travis View Post
    Aizen wouldn't have had to use hypnosis to make everyday activities go on in Central 46 if there was no one coming or going. Nobles are also born with very high reiatsu. So if they were in Central 46 they would have a even more noticeable reiatsu than probably most shinigami, the unseated ones atleast. Doesn't really matter though.
    Nobles are born with high reiatsu compared to people from Rukongai. That doesn't automatically make them a powerful shinigami. And most shinigami have negligible reiatsu.

    Quote Originally Posted by Travis View Post
    About the turn nothing into an object. We don't really know that yet. He could for all we know be able to conjure up mulitple images of himself to his opponent that can be felt or smelt or whatever.

    He turns his zanpaktou into a corpse. He had to change its weight, feel, smell, and look to achieve that. I suppose it would have to make the proper sounds too. You still feel stuff even when you're doing nothing. If he can make you misinterpret those feelings then he could make you feel like your stomach aches or your arms weight a ton and you can't lift them. I think he could even manipulate a reiatsu into making someone kneel if he'd like but he could just use his own since it's so high. We really don't know the limits of his hypnosis ability yet.

    I'm also not saying he made Grimmjow kneel by making him feel a fake reiatsu or feel like there was an object on him. There are more to the 5 senses than you're thinking of. If he can make something feel like a boulder on your back, he can also change it so it looks invisible to your eyes.
    Except Aizen specifically states that it makes the target misinterpret other things, not themselves. "'Complete Hypnosis' controls the 5 senses to the point where it can make the target misinterpret another person's form, shape, mass, feel, and smell to be that of the 'enemy.' Controlling the targets own form, shape, mass, etc. does not lie within his description. He also turns a specific object into another specific object. There is no invisible object with huge mass that he could just place on Grimmjow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Travis View Post
    "Making you misinterpret your 5 senses" leaves a lot of room for what could and couldn't happen. It all depends on Kubo, I think.
    By itself it could leave a lot of room, but what Aizen says is much more specific.

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    Re: Yamamoto: Underestimated or Overhyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by IchigoSoul View Post
    I still think that Aizen isnt all strong without his sword. True, he is strong in a sense but i mean without his sword,he might only be at the same level as the other captains. How far has Aizen not shown his powers without his sword?
    1)Against hisugaya, without his sword to create the illusion that was hit, hisu was backstabbed. We can fairly say that hisu dint even know he was hit until Aizen want him to know. For all we know, Aizen can multi-stabb a person and the person still thinks that hes fine.
    2)Against grimmjow, i doubt it was pure rieatsu to force him down, i think it was an illusion. Since aizen controls the five senses, he can make grimmjow feel, smell, hear, see that he was on the ground and aizen can project that illusion to the other espada that grimmjow was on the ground, so all an illusion.
    3)Against Ichigo and renji, that must be an illusion.
    4)Using a 90+ spell, aizen also protray the image to gin so that he remain loyal.
    #1 - This is simply showing off Aizen's strengths with Kyouka Suigetsu in hand, not that he is weak without his zanpakto. Things to do, people to see, it was just a quick way to rid himself of a nuisance.

    #2 - It is perfectly reasonable to suggest it is purely reiatsu at work here. Aizen has at least double the reiatsu of the average captain. We have no idea if he has more up his sleeve. People have tended sometimes to ascribe God's own reiatsu to Aizen, which is vastly overstating the matter - but if we shouldn't exaggerate his spirit pressure, we should not sell it short either.

    Maybe an alternative way to look at this is the DIFFERENCE in reiatsu. Compare Aizen and Grimmjow's situatuon with Yamamoto's effect on Nanao or Kempachi's on Hanatarou. Both of these suffered worse than Grimmjow did for the difference in reiatsu exerted upon them. Let's look at this in the mathematical sense. Say Aizen has 2.5 captains and Grimmjow 1.5 just to toss some numbers. With 1.5 of Aizen's reiatsu countered by Grimmjow's own, that would still be a 1.0 captain's worth of reiatsu forcing him down, which is an INCREDIBLE spirit pressure to inflict on a reiatsu neutral target. People can adjust the numbers however they like, but the argument is sound.

    Plus the Espada know of his illusory capabilities, or some of them do. There was a brief conversation between Noitora and Ulquiorra at some point which makes mention of it. Strong as the Espada are, they would not merely bow to someone on the basis of illusion alone, and known illusion at that. There has to be more to it.

    #3 - This plays out similarly to the above point, in the difference in reiatsu. Remember that Ichigo could not even cut Kempachi until he unleashed more of his own reiatsu in response. (I think somebody in another thread has argued that the Kempachi fight was where Ichigo's reiatsu was most strongly unleashed - I remember it was well argued. He fought better later on, had more powers to work with, but we never saw him team up with Zangetsu in quite the same fashion in that loosing of raw spirit pressure.) By the time he was nearly sliced in two, his chance to raise his own reiatsu had somewhat slipped by. Also this was neither Ichigo nor Renji at their best. Both had gone a few rounds with Byakuya already that day, and healing or no healing, would be a few points below their peak by that point. Aizen, by comparison, had barely raised a sweat. Somebody else has already mentioned that he never did perform the illusion ceremony on Ichigo.

    #4 - Aizen HAS Gin's loyalty. It is not something he needs to reassert or pressure. At some point Aizen revealed that Gin was the only person he ever truly considered to be his lieutenant or subordinate. At many points Gin might have spilled the beans on Aizen if he was not wholly loyal. This did not happen.

    As for the kidou itself, we know that casting a level 90+ spell without the chant takes serious experience/training. Consider Byakuya's various fights - we see what a good captain can do with a quick mind and a good command of kidou, and if Byakuya can wield it that well, then Aizen, who is more experienced than him, will surely prove himself capable.

    So, coming to the point, Aizen's illusions are just one of his arsenal of many talents - his kidou and reiatsu are also in an elite class. If Byakuya with his use of shunpo and kidou and zanpakto can be considered a model for captains, then Aizen - minus certain questions of treachery - can equally well be considered so. Much more than just a show of illusion.

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    Re: Yamamoto: Underestimated or Overhyped?

    If aizen released, ichigo wouldnt have known would he if hes already under illusion?

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Neuroff's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto: Underestimated or Overhyped?

    The release doesn't change your memory, it creates illusions.

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    Re: Yamamoto: Underestimated or Overhyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroff View Post
    The release doesn't change your memory, it creates illusions.
    I actually agree with this guy. If Aizen released, Ichigo would have seen him release. From what Ichigo saw, the only time Aizen moved was to block Ichigo's sword.

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    Re: Yamamoto: Underestimated or Overhyped?

    However, true that ichigo never seen him release.But i think the reisatu is fake because, you can feel air but your body dismiss it because you are so used to it so Aizen can control the air

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Neuroff's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto: Underestimated or Overhyped?

    No, he doesn't control the air, and reiatsu has nothing to do with air.

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    Re: Yamamoto: Underestimated or Overhyped?

    @Neuroff: There is one of your points I want to address. You said if Yamamoto is stronger than Aizen, he'd just waltz into Hueco Mundo and beat everyone. This is not true.

    First off, Yamamoto can't know for sure if he's stronger than Aizen. I mean I don't think anyone would have thought he was this strong. I believe he was hiding his true power to foll everyone. I mean if people knew he had the reiatsu that is double that of an average captain, you think anyone would believe for a second that Aizen could be killed so easily (talking about the fake death) and by GIN? Not saying anything bad about Gin, but I don't think he could take Aizen for a second.

    Anyway, even if Yamamoto knew for sure that he was stronger, he still wouldn't go into Hueco Mundo without a plan. It's the same reason why Aizen probably isn't going through SS rampaging. He could be outnumbered and Yamamoto wouldn't be outnumbered by bums. He'd be outnumbered by formidable fighters who could team up and kill him.

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    Re: Yamamoto: Underestimated or Overhyped?

    I was replying to the post in which he said that Aizen wouldn't even be able to beat a vastolorde. As Aizen demonstrated his power before he left for Hueco Mundo, I would think that the captains have a pretty good idea of his power now. If he actually were as weak as people think, he wouldn't have been able to take out captain class opponents so easily, and Soul Society would know it. Yamamoto could just go and take out everyone. This is completely different from what actually happened. The power that Aizen demonstrated before he left for Hueco Mundo was definitely enough to make Yamamoto hesitate before he makes a direct attack.

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    Re: Yamamoto: Underestimated or Overhyped?

    Why should Aizen retreat if he was so "god". He controls people through fear. I dont think someone that strong would run away, even if it was for research. Kubo wouldnt create someone so strong that no one can take down. Like someone point out before, likeb the wizard of oz, people thinks hes strong but hes not.

    To repharse my point, the air in hueco mundo is more concentrated ith reiastu and that resiastu is always in constant contact. Like something you are used to, you wont feel it but its there. Aizen just need to control how you feel the reiastu and blam, you are on the ground.

    To your point, if he was so strong, he would have take down all of the captains,which would be easy if he was what you claim+his sword, he can take down everyone in SS and then continue research in ease. So he create the espada to take heat off him so he can pick someone which he can beat to battle.

    Another thing, if he was so strong, why would he recruit Tousen?True, tousen cannot be affected by the hypnosis but if aizen was really that strong, he wouldnt care if tousen joined him or not so he fear tousen even if he doesnt show it. This point also shows aizen is dependent on his sword.

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    Re: Yamamoto: Underestimated or Overhyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by IchigoSoul View Post
    Why should Aizen retreat if he was so "god". He controls people through fear. I dont think someone that strong would run away, even if it was for research. Kubo wouldnt create someone so strong that no one can take down. Like someone point out before, likeb the wizard of oz, people thinks hes strong but hes not.

    To repharse my point, the air in hueco mundo is more concentrated ith reiastu and that resiastu is always in constant contact. Like something you are used to, you wont feel it but its there. Aizen just need to control how you feel the reiastu and blam, you are on the ground.

    To your point, if he was so strong, he would have take down all of the captains,which would be easy if he was what you claim+his sword, he can take down everyone in SS and then continue research in ease. So he create the espada to take heat off him so he can pick someone which he can beat to battle.

    Another thing, if he was so strong, why would he recruit Tousen?True, tousen cannot be affected by the hypnosis but if aizen was really that strong, he wouldnt care if tousen joined him or not so he fear tousen even if he doesnt show it. This point also shows aizen is dependent on his sword.
    Let me explain illusions to do. He can make you see them but the illusions can't actually hurt you. He can make you think reiatsu is pounding on you but if it's not, then nothing will happen. With Aizen, he mostly just distracts you with his shikai then gets an easy hit when you're distracted. You can feel something but nothing will happen to u if it's not really there.

    Also, he doesn't fear Tousen. Tousen is just loyal to him, so he took Tousen with him. Tousen was loyal to him even before Tousen and Gin became captains so Aizen knows he can trust him. It does not mean he fears Tousen.

    Lastly, the reason he left is because he was surrounded by like 20 of the top shinigami in SS. No matter how strong he is, he is outnumbered and the chances of losing increases. Especially since Yoruichi is there and she has her hand on his sword at the time. Yoruichi is no pushover. I think Aizen could take Yoruichi down but it won't be as easy as Komamura and by the time he takes her down he has Yamamoto, Ukitake, and Kyoraku to deal with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroff View Post
    I was replying to the post in which he said that Aizen wouldn't even be able to beat a vastolorde. As Aizen demonstrated his power before he left for Hueco Mundo, I would think that the captains have a pretty good idea of his power now. If he actually were as weak as people think, he wouldn't have been able to take out captain class opponents so easily, and Soul Society would know it. Yamamoto could just go and take out everyone. This is completely different from what actually happened. The power that Aizen demonstrated before he left for Hueco Mundo was definitely enough to make Yamamoto hesitate before he makes a direct attack.
    Well they saw what he can do, but they don't know for sure how strong he is. I mean I doubt anyone besides Gin and Tousen know what his bankai can do. The SS people didn't even know what his shikai did. All the SS people saw was that he took down Komamura and Hitsugaya with ease, however he didn't reveal much, so they can't be sure.

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    Re: Yamamoto: Underestimated or Overhyped?

    The poster was assuming Yamamoto had a huge power advantage over Aizen. If Yamamoto had enough reiatsu to just completely overwhelm Aizen, there would be nothing Aizen could do about it. Even if he wasn't seeing Aizen at all, Aizen's attacks wouldn't affect Yamamoto. I never said that Yamamoto could actually do it, but that he could do it if that ridiculous situation were true.

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    Re: Yamamoto: Underestimated or Overhyped?

    I don't know about you, but I am certainly fed up with Yamamoto's attitude: "she did this, she is our enemy." "He did that, he betrayed us, he must be hunt down." I dislike that kind of close-minded, autocratic jerks.

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