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Thread: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

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    Re: Picking Out the "Natural Geniuses"

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Melody View Post
    Well first of all, let's analyze those called "genius" by the manga first hand.

    - Kakashi
    - Itachi
    - Sandaime
    - the Sannin(or at least Oro)
    - Sasuke
    - Neji
    - Minato

    These people were asserted by the manga as being geniuses(either by other characters or by the narrative) therefore it is cannon fact that they are.

    Another thing, beating a genius does not necessarily make you one. That only means you're stronger than a genius. That doesn't mean you yourself are one. Perhaps you became stronger by training harder or spending more time on your training.
    That list I would agree with, except only Oro as the sannin, from the flashbacks we've seen, neither Tsunade nor Jiraiya seemed to be brimming with talent as genin (although Tsunade along with Oro whilst Jiraiya was tied to a post). Other than that I'd add on Haku and Kimimaro on there.

    Once again, those mentioned in my first post were just those I could think of on quick notice, just to get the discussion started, in no way shape or form did I say that those are the only "natural geniuses" and I just wanted to gett he discussion going about who are geniuses, and what you guys think the definition of genius is in the naruto world.

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    Re: Picking Out the "Natural Geniuses"

    Well I'm not 100% sure Kimi was specifically referred to as "genius" in the manga, I'll go look through those chapters again. I remember his skill being commented upon many times, but I don't recall the specific word "genius".

    What I define as "genius" is someone who is capable of accomplishing great things with ease. Most geniuses in the Naruto manga have had an element of ease to the greatest of feats. Not ease in the sense that it's always easy, but in the sense that they gain greater ease from those feats than others. Accomplishing feats at a young age(which normally would happen at older ages) is one of those cases for example.

    For example, Naruto accomplishes great things, but never once is it made easy for him. There is somehow, somewhere an element of a shortcut(most of them involving KB). Yes, that shortcut is created by Naruto's awesome mind, but it transcends the level of conventional genius. It falls under something more actually.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Yondaime Uzumaki's Avatar
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    Re: Picking Out the "Natural Geniuses"

    Quote Originally Posted by nat View Post
    Quote> "If I'm not mistaken, Naruto and Nagato are the only two people to beat a chuunin before reaching the level of genin."

    Wrong.
    Haku was not even a rank and by Kakashi's words he was as strong as a jounin...First part go check it out...."younger than you, stronger than me"...
    Missing nins don't have a rank

    And Gaara was picking people left and right, genin or chuunin. ...oh wait, wasn't his uncle Yashamaru a jounin? and Gaara flayed him at 6 years. not 12 but 6, not to forget the rest of the assassins sent by the Kazekage.

    Naruto was specifically left out by the author of the thread because of his hard work..

    The point is> who was born with genius genes Not who became strong because of hard work or perseverance.
    Whoa, whoa, whoa. Kakashi never said that Haku could beat him. His words were "there are SOME ninja". That didn't mean that Haku would beat him. Sasuke would've beaten Haku if he hadn't protected Naruto, and he was just developing his Sharingan. Imagine Haku fighting someone that had better control of their Sharingan. Besides that, we haven't seen Haku defeat a jounin so it irrelevant.

    You are right about Gaara (damn it, I should've remembered that) but in the end Gaara lost to Naruto. If I'm not mistaken, Naruto handed Gaara his first ass whipping. Lee works way harder than Naruto but he lost to Gaara. What I'm getting at is that hard work will only get you so far and you can't just say that he's a hard worker but take away the fact that he's beaten people that harder workers couldn't. Most people are hard workers away. Neji trains non-stop, yet he was known as a genius. Same goes for Sasuke.

    Lastly, genius genes??? Really? Last time I checked, Naruto was the son of one of the strongest Hokages in history. And Naruto was self taught, unlike most. Also, Haku was 15 years old when he died. A 15 yr old Naruto would destroy Haku, without the nine-tails. So saying that Naruto is strong because of hard work and that everyone else are geniuses or child prodigies is ridiculous because most had head starts and worked hard as well, yet Naruto is still able to beat a real child prodigy like Gaara, who could use his tailed beast to the full extent.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Haku could have just thrown all his needles at Sasuke's vital points when he first started using his ice mirrors, he woulda had NO chance at all. In fact, all naruto and sasuke could do at first was try to get into the fetal position to dodge more needles, talk about futile....

    Haku was too soft to kill Sasuke right away, and by the time he hardened up, Sasuke had unlocked his basic sharingan and Haku was already tiring himself out, since Sasuke noted that he kept getting slower and slower.

    It's pretty much a fact, Haku could have completely destroyed Sasuke at the time of their fight.

    Whether he's jounin level or not is debatable, but I think he could be a special jounin, with his high mastery of his kekkai genkai, Zabuza noted the incredible power of the ice mirrors and how Haku could take down almost any ninja they faced. Kakashi could not have been beaten by haku due to the fact that he has the sharingan for one thing. A three tomoe sharingan, whilst Sasuke had a one tomoe sharingan when he first analyzed Haku's movements. That same type of sharingan (3 tomoe) could follow naruto when he was kyuubi cloaked (with 0 tails), so I'm sure Kakashi woul dhave no trouble keeping up with Haku at all. Also, Kakashi has high power jutsu like raikiri to break through the mirrors. However, just your generic jounin/chunin, along the lines of Iruka, Mizuki, Genma, etc., who have good battle tactics, strategizing, taijutsu, and basic ninjutsu mastery (your average katon jutsu here and there) would likely die to Haku.

    Anyways, I'm sure that had Naruto had a father and mother to help raise him, he would have been stronger than sasuke by the time they were genin. Sasuke was only as strong as he was since he was pushed by his father to be so (the disappointment of his father compared to Itachi made him master the katon jutsu and stuff like that), his brother was always the standard that he would be held to, since Itachi truly was a genius of the Uchiha. If Naruto had had his parents to help him in his ninja ways pre-academy, I reckon he would be pretty powerful by the time he was a genin, instead, he was shunned upon by the villagers, and consequently, he became a troublemaker to attract attention to himself. It wasn't until he realized that troublemaking earned negative attention that he started training as a ninja, that was basically at the end of his academy days when he stopped slacking off, while Sasuke had that kind of motivation since birth to become a good ninja.

    Wel, that's the end of my nature vs. nurture genius argument.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    There's a different between genius and hard work. Geniuses still have to work hard, but they get stuff more easily than the other guy so their amount of hard work is of a different caliber than the other guy.

    Also note that in the manga, it seems genius is associated with the ability to do extraordinary things because Kakashi questioned if Lee was a genius after all for being able to achieve the Kaimon Gates.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    @ Yondaime Uzumaki, genius is not who beats who...But who has potential to have more shortcuts by means intellect (Shika) abilities (Haku/Itachi/...)...imo. On that we could conflict because it is a personal opinion.

    I did not say Haku could beat Kakshi, I said Kakashi recognized Haku as a very strong ninja.

    Gaara is no less of a genius because he got defeated by Naruto, he was genius because he fended for himself and developed a fighting technique that suits his bijuu. The auto defense sad is one thing, but the rest of his array; armor, desert coffin etcc..needed elaboration and a clever mind to develop them

    Besides when Gaara was sane from blood lust for brief instances, he spoke in deep philosophies and strategy . (he was my first favorite of the series )


    As for Naruto, he had smart genes, uber bijuu, (relatively) endless Chakra and stamina and yet he had to work more than most...sounds off doesn't it?
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddy01741 View Post
    Haku could have just thrown all his needles at Sasuke's vital points when he first started using his ice mirrors, he woulda had NO chance at all. In fact, all naruto and sasuke could do at first was try to get into the fetal position to dodge more needles, talk about futile....

    Haku was too soft to kill Sasuke right away, and by the time he hardened up, Sasuke had unlocked his basic sharingan and Haku was already tiring himself out, since Sasuke noted that he kept getting slower and slower.

    It's pretty much a fact, Haku could have completely destroyed Sasuke at the time of their fight.

    Whether he's jounin level or not is debatable, but I think he could be a special jounin, with his high mastery of his kekkai genkai, Zabuza noted the incredible power of the ice mirrors and how Haku could take down almost any ninja they faced. Kakashi could not have been beaten by haku due to the fact that he has the sharingan for one thing. A three tomoe sharingan, whilst Sasuke had a one tomoe sharingan when he first analyzed Haku's movements. That same type of sharingan (3 tomoe) could follow naruto when he was kyuubi cloaked (with 0 tails), so I'm sure Kakashi woul dhave no trouble keeping up with Haku at all. Also, Kakashi has high power jutsu like raikiri to break through the mirrors. However, just your generic jounin/chunin, along the lines of Iruka, Mizuki, Genma, etc., who have good battle tactics, strategizing, taijutsu, and basic ninjutsu mastery (your average katon jutsu here and there) would likely die to Haku.

    Anyways, I'm sure that had Naruto had a father and mother to help raise him, he would have been stronger than sasuke by the time they were genin. Sasuke was only as strong as he was since he was pushed by his father to be so (the disappointment of his father compared to Itachi made him master the katon jutsu and stuff like that), his brother was always the standard that he would be held to, since Itachi truly was a genius of the Uchiha. If Naruto had had his parents to help him in his ninja ways pre-academy, I reckon he would be pretty powerful by the time he was a genin, instead, he was shunned upon by the villagers, and consequently, he became a troublemaker to attract attention to himself. It wasn't until he realized that troublemaking earned negative attention that he started training as a ninja, that was basically at the end of his academy days when he stopped slacking off, while Sasuke had that kind of motivation since birth to become a good ninja.

    Wel, that's the end of my nature vs. nurture genius argument.
    What??? Haku could not handle Kakashi by himself. Saying that Haku could've killed Naruto and Sasuke is no secret. But it's a fact that Haku had to attack Naruto just to get an opening on Sasuke after his Sharingan was activated. I think it's safe to say that Kakashi was stronger, faster, and smarter than Sasuke at that point in time. Add a better Sharingan and more powerful jutsu and you have a ninja that can see Haku's movements and move fast enough to take advantage. That fight is a no-brainer. Kakashi would destroy Haku.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Melody View Post
    There's a different between genius and hard work. Geniuses still have to work hard, but they get stuff more easily than the other guy so their amount of hard work is of a different caliber than the other guy.
    Huh??? You mean like learning a Jounin level jutsu in a day, or like learning an A-Rank jutsu in a week. And let me bring up one the kyuubi. How ironic is it that people don't count the kyuubi as a part of Naruto's power yet they don't mention the fact that the kyuubi restricts his own chakra and chakra control to a certain extent? Who can argue that the kyuubi has both positive and negative effects? Yet we count the negative and discount the positive. If you count Gaara as a "natural genius" then it's because of his tailed beast. But when the kyuubi comes up it's unfair.

    Quote Originally Posted by nat View Post
    @ Yondaime Uzumaki, genius is not who beats who...But who has potential to have more shortcuts by means intellect (Shika) abilities (Haku/Itachi/...)...imo. On that we could conflict because it is a personal opinion.

    I did not say Haku could beat Kakshi, I said Kakashi recognized Haku as a very strong ninja.

    Gaara is no less of a genius because he got defeated by Naruto, he was genius because he fended for himself and developed a fighting technique that suits his bijuu. The auto defense sad is one thing, but the rest of his array; armor, desert coffin etcc..needed elaboration and a clever mind to develop them

    Besides when Gaara was sane from blood lust for brief instances, he spoke in deep philosophies and strategy . (he was my first favorite of the series )


    As for Naruto, he had smart genes, uber bijuu, (relatively) endless Chakra and stamina and yet he had to work more than most...sounds off doesn't it?
    I just want to comment on the last statement. OK, the name of the manga is Naruto. Just because we see Naruto training doesn't mean he trains more than most. I've seen Neji and Sasuke train just as much. I'm sure that Naruto could've relied on the kyuubi completely, like Gaara did with his bijuu. Killer Bee seems to work just as hard and to have the same advantages(maybe more advantages), does that mean that he wasn't a "natural genius"?
    Last edited by Yondaime Uzumaki; March 16, 2009 at 08:26 PM.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    well, you can't misunderstand geniuses for strength

    like Hidan and Kakuzu were strong, but I wouldn't call them genius
    Hidan is obvious why, now Kakuzu had a weird story behind him and apparently he stole a jutsu that made him somehow immortal.
    On another hand, we know quatz of Deidara's story and he was able to do some very weird/powerful/distinct jutsu...
    in the manga even Gaara is called a genius

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Yondaime Uzumaki View Post
    What??? Haku could not handle Kakashi by himself. Saying that Haku could've killed Naruto and Sasuke is no secret. But it's a fact that Haku had to attack Naruto just to get an opening on Sasuke after his Sharingan was activated. I think it's safe to say that Kakashi was stronger, faster, and smarter than Sasuke at that point in time. Add a better Sharingan and more powerful jutsu and you have a ninja that can see Haku's movements and move fast enough to take advantage. That fight is a no-brainer. Kakashi would destroy Haku.
    Thank you for agreeing with me but next time read more carefully:

    Quote Quote:
    Whether he's jounin level or not is debatable, but I think he could be a special jounin, with his high mastery of his kekkai genkai, Zabuza noted the incredible power of the ice mirrors and how Haku could take down almost any ninja they faced. Kakashi could not have been beaten by haku due to the fact that he has the sharingan for one thing. A three tomoe sharingan, whilst Sasuke had a one tomoe sharingan when he first analyzed Haku's movements. That same type of sharingan (3 tomoe) could follow naruto when he was kyuubi cloaked (with 0 tails), so I'm sure Kakashi woul dhave no trouble keeping up with Haku at all. Also, Kakashi has high power jutsu like raikiri to break through the mirrors. However, just your generic jounin/chunin, along the lines of Iruka, Mizuki, Genma, etc., who have good battle tactics, strategizing, taijutsu, and basic ninjutsu mastery (your average katon jutsu here and there) would likely die to Haku.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Genius.

    1. an exceptional natural capacity of intellect, especially as shown in creative and original work in science, art, music, etc.: the genius of Mozart.
    2. a person having such capacity.
    3. a person having an extraordinarily high intelligence rating on a psychological test, as an IQ above 140.


    All of the ninjas listed in Forever_Melody's post are indeed geniuses... just different types. The top 3 definitions pretty much describe all of the ninja on that list. For example, Sasuke can be compared to the first definition and third to an extent.

    I say this because although the Sharingan is a natural ability, it's still just a tool that he uses. And while he had the highest test scores of everyone in he and Naruto's class (Shikamaru could've scored better if he cared), that still wasn't natural ability: it was his drive to impress his father that drove him to improve.

    So what makes Sasuke a genius then if all his feats were earned through hard work and skilled use of the Sharingan instead of naturaly being born good at everything? Why, how quickly he gained the Sharingan aswell as his afinity for Ninjutsu ofcourse. He mastered the Chidori to such an extent that he made it his own; giving it new forms through ingenuity. He has two chakra proficiencies at a young age (born with one, mastered the other).

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Yondaime Uzumaki View Post
    Huh??? You mean like learning a Jounin level jutsu in a day, or like learning an A-Rank jutsu in a week. And let me bring up one the kyuubi. How ironic is it that people don't count the kyuubi as a part of Naruto's power yet they don't mention the fact that the kyuubi restricts his own chakra and chakra control to a certain extent? Who can argue that the kyuubi has both positive and negative effects? Yet we count the negative and discount the positive. If you count Gaara as a "natural genius" then it's because of his tailed beast. But when the kyuubi comes up it's unfair
    Gaara isn't necessarily a genius because of Shukaku. In fact, Shukaku is also a drag for Gaara from my point of view since he can't sleep(that CAN'T be healthy for you lol )

    All of Gaara's Suna jutsus are his own as shown when he is still able to use them after losing Shukaku. It's the capacity and proficiency with which he uses them that classifies him as a genius(I mean, the guy can rain an avalanche on you!). I mean, in between the Chunin exams and the rescue Sasuke arc, he showed a total of 3 new jutsus vs 1 for each of the Konoha gang. That's fast learning! Let's not talk about the fact that he became a Kage in part 2. To be honest, Sasuke & Naruto aside, Gaara has probably shown the most large scale destructive jutsus in the series from the youngsters.

    As for Naruto & Kyuubi, Kyuubi is both a blessing and a curse to him. It grants him the ability to utilize special methods such as KB training to further himself, but it also limits other things in his development.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Yondaime Uzumaki's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddy01741 View Post
    Thank you for agreeing with me but next time read more carefully:
    You wrote two different things down, next time write more carefully. Sorry, I had to do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Melody View Post
    Gaara isn't necessarily a genius because of Shukaku. In fact, Shukaku is also a drag for Gaara from my point of view since he can't sleep(that CAN'T be healthy for you lol )

    All of Gaara's Suna jutsus are his own as shown when he is still able to use them after losing Shukaku. It's the capacity and proficiency with which he uses them that classifies him as a genius(I mean, the guy can rain an avalanche on you!). I mean, in between the Chunin exams and the rescue Sasuke arc, he showed a total of 3 new jutsus vs 1 for each of the Konoha gang. That's fast learning! Let's not talk about the fact that he became a Kage in part 2. To be honest, Sasuke & Naruto aside, Gaara has probably shown the most large scale destructive jutsus in the series from the youngsters.

    As for Naruto & Kyuubi, Kyuubi is both a blessing and a curse to him. It grants him the ability to utilize special methods such as KB training to further himself, but it also limits other things in his development.
    Naruto learned two things. He learned how to draw the kyuubi's chakra and he learned the summoning. Naruto got stronger than Sasuke within about a month and a half. He learned the Rasengan a little over a week later. So within a month and a half, Naruto learned 3 things to Sasuke's 2. We both know that Naruto was the stronger of the two on the roof of the hospital. That should've been impossible for Naruto to be stronger than Konoha's #1 rookie.

    And Gaara may still be able to manipulate sand, but I think it's the equivalent of Wolverine getting the adamantium strip from his body. Yeah, he still had claws but they were a lot weaker than the original claws.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    If I'm not mistaken, the concept of "genius" has only been used on young shinobi. The fact that they acheived great prowless in the ninja world at a young age, and the fact they could master certain jutsu/abilities at a young age is what makes them a genius.

    We never hear Jiraiya called a genius, because he really wasn't one, yet he is one of the most powerful ninja in the manga.

    In any event, here's my list:

    Sasuke- before even fully acquiring the Sharigan, he was able to preform ninjutsu no acedemy student should know, was at the top of his class in every category, and was extremely good at everything else.

    Neji- taught himself clan techniques and mastered them better than anyone we have seen.

    Gaara- able to use massive sand techniques at an early age, had unrivaled power for ninja his age, even when not using his Biju's power.

    Itachi- kind of self explanitory

    Kakashi- again, self explanitory

    Kimmimaro- was a beast as a small child, killed a shit ton of people, was amazing at taijutsu.

    Now I've seen some people note Yondi as a genius, but we really don't know how good he was as a child. As an adult he was no doubt better than anyone and certainly a genius in the true sense of the word. While he certainly could have been a genius, and probably was, we really have no proof.

    As for Haku being a genius, I think this is debatable. His Kekkai Genkai gave him great skill, but aside from that, he wasn't all impressive other than the fact he was great with needles. Sasuke proved he was faster than him and better at close range combat. Haku without his Kekkai Genkai, is really just a second rate shinobi.

    I can see how some would say "well what about Neji and Sasuke". While Neji probably wouldn't be half as good without his Byakuguan, you could aruge that Sasuke would still be a good shinobi. But unlike Haku, both of them were able to train themselves in jutsu they shouldn't of been able to use. Their Kekkai Genkai had no barring on that.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    if genius in jutsu-wise then genius is definately kakashi...
    1)he made his own jutsu which reqires great speed...and he did it without anyone's help..
    2)was made chunin and jounin at a very early age..
    3)captain of anbu..
    4)unlocked his MS and he's a non-uchiha..
    5)know more than 1000 jutsus...
    Neji should also be considered a genius because he was able to master Hyaga style only by seeing it..since lower branch was not allowed to learn these techniques..
    Yondaime was also a genius and Itachi too...let me add that naruto and Sauske aren't geniuses...

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Yondaime Uzumaki View Post
    You wrote two different things down, next time write more carefully. Sorry, I had to do that.

    Really? Go read the first post, i never edited it, I NEVER stated that Haku>Kakashi, so stop making up bullshit.

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