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As far as the manga is concerned, it doesn't matter what the manga calls them because it's left to the individual to decide who is the genius and who's not. I honestly believe that a Naruto from Part I was better than Jounin Kakashi on Kakashi Gaiden, and they were the same age. And Naruto at 16 is better than Kakashi at any age.What other rookie would you put against Kakashi and expect to win? Lee's not smart enough, Shikamaru's not strong enough, Sakura's not fast enough, and Neji's not good enough. Sasuke and Naruto are the only ones that I would put against Kakashi or Gai. It may just be a personal opinion, but I think Naruto is a natural fighting genius. Sorry for making this so long, I hate when people do that so I apologize ahead of time.
Last edited by Yondaime Uzumaki; March 31, 2009 at 12:10 AM.
Naruto isn't a natural genius in any way. He couldn't even preform a simple Bushin Technique to graduate.
In case you forgot, he won his fight with Kiba due to a fart. And his fight with Neji was won due to the Kyuubi. Take these both out and he loses both matches. Granted, he eventually outsmarted them, but he got his dick kicked in for the wide majority of the fights until he gained an advantage by doing something he did not intend to do.
As I said before, Naruto is not a genius in the natural sense that everything comes easy to him. He's a genius in the sense, that once he sets his mind on something, he doesn't fail. His one major failure to date was not getting Sasuke back.
Last edited by Delbi; March 31, 2009 at 12:15 AM.
That's a flawed argument, nullifying something integral and influential as Kyuubi means changing Naruto greatly, which means it doesn't necessarily have to produce an obvious result against Neji.Quote:
Last edited by TheChosenOne; March 31, 2009 at 01:57 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Not to sound cliche, but I think, as well as everyone else, that Naruto is a genius in battle. But that alone can not give Naruto the title genius.
When we look at Itachi, Kakashi, Haku, Sasuke, Neji, and Shikamaru maybe being the only exception, they are all well balanced. Their called genius because they excel with book smarts and physical skills. Including Itachi as an assumption, they all learned extremely fast, but also added their own style to what they did.
I do think Lee is a genius. His problem with ninjutsu is like someone with a horrible memory trying to be a doctor. That does not mean that the person is not as smart as doctors are, but he simply has limitations. I think if Lee was able to use ninjutsu, he would of been incredible.
As for Kiba, let's not forget that Naruto's chakra was not stable due to Orochimaru's seal. Even Jariaya said that. Naruto used more chakra then anyone else beforehand. As far as the fight with Neji, being able to use any bijuu's chakra is a feat in itself, let alone the kyuubi's(the Sandaime and Orochimaru seemed impressed). You can't hold that against him because, like I said before, the kyuubi has a lot of drawbacks that you are also holding against Naruto. As long as the kyuubi is in Naruto, he will never have 100% control over his own chakra, that and the seal are the only things that hold the kyuubi. Without any chakra holding the kyuubi, the kyuubi gains control and could possibly break the seal on its own. That's how Orochimaru broke free from Sasuke, and the kyuubi is immeasurably stronger than Orochimaru. So you're not even considering that Naruto is not ever at 100% with the kyuubi, but you want to take the kyuubi away? That power was given to him for the purpose of fighting. Kiba uses Akamaru and soldier pills, Chouji uses soldier pills, Kakashi uses ninja dogs, Orochimaru used snakes, Tsunade used slugs, Sasuke used a cursed seal, Minato used toads, the Sandaime used Enma, and Naruto uses the kyuubi and toads. It's no more different than Obito giving Kakashi his Sharingan or Itachi giving Sasuke his eye techiques, and it was given to him from his father. Is it fair, yes. All is fair in love and war. If it gives you an advantage, it's fair(otherwise Jariaya wouldn't have taught him how to use it). And let's not forget that Neji is a year older than Naruto, and he still lost.
There is no natural sense of the word "genius". A genius is a genius. If a boxer loses a fight, he loses. I don't care how good you are in the gym or how much you train, if you lose then you lose. The genius is the one who wins when it comes to fighting. They didn't call Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris genius because fighting came naturally to them but they lost to someone less than a genius. You can't be a fighting genius if you lose to someone less than that of a fighting genius, it's not logically. If you don't think Naruto is a genius in that sense, fine, but you can't possibly count someone that he has beaten or can beat a genius. And some of the people that you consider genius were not even Naruto's age when they fought, like Kimimaro. He was 15 and Naruto was 13. Naruto at 15 would've wrecked him, Naruto at the VoTE would've wrecked him. Being a genius strategist and being a genius fighter are two completely different things. Being able to surpass Jariaya in Sage Arts in a short amount of time should be a testament to that. Jariaya was around 53 or 54 and still couldn't go into Hermit Mode by himself. Naruto is still a kid and he's already fighting someone that no one else in the village could face, even if they did know his secret. I think your idea of natural genius is far-fetched. If a 16 year beats Tyson, that kid is a genius in every sense of the word. I don't expect you to read all of this(I wouldn't), but I couldn't shorten it. Sorry.
Sidenote: TheChosenOne actually explained the kyuubi argument better than I could, and in a shorter comment. Nice Job.
Last edited by Yondaime Uzumaki; March 31, 2009 at 02:39 AM.
I'd like to clear some things.
Kakashi didn't create his jutsu from scratch. He too, took Minato's jutsu and simply modified it because he couldn't incorparate his element in the Rasengan. By modifying it he made it his own in the process *-Raikiri-, Just like Naruto was able to make Rasengan his own by taking the jutsu further than Yondaime, Jiraya and Kakashi could.
As stated in the Manga, the fact is that the Fox was messing with Naruto's chakra and that's why he couldn't mold it correctly prior meeting Jiraya. --> As I'm sure you know that he caught the Gap in strength beetwen him and Sauke after Jiraya arranged his seal in no time. So it wasn't really because he didn't have talent to make these replications/jutsus, but that something he wasn't aware of(Kyuubi inside him) was disturbing his chakra-contol thus preventing his Growth as a Ninja.
I didn't quote the rest 'cause it was your opinion. //quote
As for the thread's theme, true, Naruto isn't a Genuis. Kishimoto didn't give him that term because he wanted to make a point, but he really don't need to be 'cause he's got something better "Guts" and "Talent to achive".
I'd like to consider Naruto as a fighting prodigy 'cause he's able to make quick strategies on the get-go when in face of Danger. But in the end, the word "Genuis" is kinda trivial and is only used by Kishimoto to hype a given Character's achievements and its meant to make Naruto's achiements greater when defeating and surpassing a Genuis with Guts and hard work. That's all there is to it Imho.
Last edited by The Adamant Dragon; March 31, 2009 at 11:04 AM. Reason: Some Key WORDS MISSING
Well I can't argue opinion because well it's opinion lol
I believe that Naruto does not fit the bill for a "genius" according tot he standards in the Naruto series(maybe according to someone else's, but not the series). The series has a very specific definition of a genius and Naruto has not fit this description, hence why the manga never refers to him as a genius.
I'd call Naruto something else because as delbi said so well, Naruto isn't a genius in that things come easily to him, he's a genius in the sense that nothing is out of his reach.
If he wants to, he can accomplish anything within the realm of the possible(and even the impossible). That's not called being a genius, that's called being ummm a freakin' god? lol
Also, I disagree about the argument where people beat others. That's flawed in many ways. Beating someone does not make you a genius, just means you're stronger. In according terms, I'd say generally yes, if you're stronger than a genius you could be one yourself, but it's not a 1 to 1 correlation.
To use your perfect example of academics, perhaps someone beat a genius because they weren't prepared. Like I said, genius is defined by ease at something, not success nor even ability at it. If you look at the dictionary;s definition, many of them include the words "capacity" and "natural ability". Capacity is the potential to become great, doesn't mean he/she is and natural ability means that it comes easily to him/her. That's it. The term genius describes a learning ability of an individual, not necessarily their prowess at something. Normally these go hand in hand, but that might not necessarily be the case.
At the end of the day, it's a question of opinion. "Genius" is but a label created by the manga as Adamant said and Naruto's character does not change regardless if you brand him a genius or not.
I personally abhor social constructions and labels such as these so I try not to use them unless the manga does. Naruto is not called a genius in the manga, so I'd rather not stick a specific label onto him like society would .
Last edited by Forever_Melody; March 31, 2009 at 05:07 AM.
The fox did not mess with his chakra until Orochimaru screwed with the seal. If you remeber, Naruto was as good at tree climbing as Sasuke, so obviously the fox didn't mess with his chakra. In fact, the fox didn't even start effecting him truly until the seal began to break when he fought Haku, and even then it still didn't affect him much until Orochimaru touched his seal with the 5 element seal.
Naruto naturally has a large amount of chakra, so that in itself makes it more difficult for him to control. That has nothing to do with the fox however.
2. Naruto does have 100% percent control of his own chakra, if he didn't he wouldn't of been able to complete Sage Mode which takes absolute control of your chakra, so you are just flat out wrong their. The Kyuubi only influences Naruto when he allows his emotions to get the better of him, or if he is on the verge of death. The weaker the seal got, the easier it was for the Kyuubi to influence Naruto's emotions thats all.
3. I never said it wasn't fair for Naruto to have the Kyuubi, understand what I said before you make comments about it. The Kyuubi to me, is like Naruto's bloodline. Saying that, Naruto "brilliant" stradegy against, could not of been imployed without the Kyuubi. Hence, he could of never implemented the stradegy without using the foxes chakra. People said that Naruto beat Neji with his superior stradegy alone which is flat out false.
4. According the Naruto Manga, which is what we are debating about, yes there is.
5. As for Naruto wrecking Kimi when he was 15, that probably wouldn't happen. Kimi was a beat, Gaara and Lee together could not beat him, and mind you at 15 Naruto would be unable to beat Kimi without the Kyuubi since he didn't get Sage Mode until now, when he is 16.
And lastly, I have never doubted Naruto's ability. When push comes to shove, Naruto has proven he can do pretty much anything. But that does not make him a genius, nothing comes to him naturally like it does for people like Sasuke, Neji, and Kakashi.
Last edited by Delbi; March 31, 2009 at 03:15 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
I think you missed an important part. Read carefully fellow, Kakashi's words beg to differ. When Naruto came back from the "forest of death", even though Kakashi didn't know that Orochimaru messed Naruto's chakra, he made this remark and made it clear that Kyuubi was the cause:
It's only after, and thanks to Jiraya, that we knew that Orochimaru completly disturbed Naruto's Seal, thus putting much more toll on his Chakra-Control -That's why he had a hard time walking on Water in Ebisu's training-. It's a wonder to me how he was able to defeat Kiba in these conditions. Through Kakashi's words, Kishi wanted us to know that becuse of the Fox, Naruto had a hard time even prior meeting Orochimaru, but the boy still managed to mold chakra and didn't have anyone to tell him how to manage the Kyuubi's influence since they all hated him. He was on his own... He would've grasped his power much earlier otherwise. That fact can't be denied.
Well this can be argued and depends on one's view. If Yondaime didn't show him the Rasengan, then he wouldn't have created Chidori/Raikiri. He took someone's else idea and simply modified it.
But we'll have to agree that this matter is trivial and off-topic.
We can Continue Via PM.
Last edited by The Adamant Dragon; March 31, 2009 at 06:04 PM.
As for what Kakashi said, Naruto's chakra control wasn't terrible, even with Orochimaru's seal, he was still able to make shadow clones after all.
Naruto always had the fox's yang presence in his body. There is a reason why Minato transformed a regular Hakke seal to a double Hakke seal.
So yes, this is where your confusion comes. Naruto always had access to the Kyuubi yang, hence the reason why Minato created a double seal. Minato made the double seal so Kyuubi's Yang can be mixed with Naruto's chakra.
The Haku vs. Naruto fight was simply a perfect example of how Naruto's Hakke seal can be loosened by Naruto's Emotions. AND when the seal is loosened, the Kyuubi Yang Chakra becomes overwhelming for Naruto, hence the Kyuubi Transformation.
Need more proof to support that Naruto always had the Kyuubi Yang mixing with his own chakra?
Well it is the simple fact that Naruto wasn't able to walk on water when Orochimaru performed a 5 hand part seal.
The mixing of the Kyuubi's Yang and Naruto's own chakra has become second nature to Naruto. When Orochimaru disrupted that constant flow, Naruto's body reaction on controlling chakra was literally messed up.
Don't get it?
Just say you're right handed -- you write with your hand, eat with your right hand,
touch yourself with your right hand loletc. --
Hypothetically, let's say I cut off your right arm. This will force you to use your left arm, no? However, you will have difficulties, because using your right arm has become second nature to your body and mind.
Ever since Naruto was a baby, his high chakra was always mixing with the Kyuubi's Yang. His body has learned to adapt with this mixing process at an early age. When something disrupts that constant flow.... the whole system is literally effed up.
Last edited by The Flash; March 31, 2009 at 08:22 PM.
And the manga says nothing about Naruto not being able to control his own chakra because he has too much.
As for the numbered statements:
1. Comparing Naaruto to Neji and Sasuke is ridiculous. Neji and Sasuke are in clans. They were being trained long before Naruto was. Sasuke learned elemental composition before his family was even killed. If you're trying to state that Neji and Sasuke didn't have more advantages then you're crazy. Be real, we both know that they were being trained long before Naruto. They've showed it. And that goes for Gaara as well. He was taught the shinobi secrets as a child by the freakin Kazekage.
2. Naruto doesn't have control over 100% of his chakra. Like I said, a certain amount of chakra is used to contain the kyuubi. He learned Sage Mode because the chakra is nonexistent to him because, again, it's being used to contain the kyuubi. You are the one that's wrong on this one. The Adamant Dragon already posted a pic of Kakashi confirming this but here's one from Yamato as well:
3. Understand what you're saying before you write it. Your exact words were "and his fight with Neji was won due to the Kyuubi. Take these both out and he loses both matches." If you don't think it's unfair, why are we "taking this out"? I never claimed that Naruto won with strategy alone, but he did use strategy throughout that fight and to deliver that final blow. By the way, how did he not intend to draw out the kyuubi's chakra?
4. I have no clue what you're talking about here. I'll take a wild guess and the definition of genius. If that's the case, like I said before, it also call Lee a genius. That has to mean that there are different kinds of genius, according to the manga.
5. Naruto was able to go toe-to-toe with Orochimaru(Kimimaro master) at 16. And considering the pic, I think it's safe to say that he was 15 or younger when he ripped Jariaya's chest open. And Lee and Gaara were both 13 when they fought Kimimaro, and Lee was hurt. And again, if you don't think that Naruto using the kyuubi is unfair, why would he need to beat Kimimaro without the kyuubi?
Lastly, how about I throw a monkey wrench in your theory? Accordingly to you, anyone that learns naturally is a genius, right? So anyone with a Sharingan is a genius? They can copy jutsu naturally, even without trying. There is a flaw in your definition of "genius".
Secondly look at this. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/28/06/ Kakashi is commenting on the weakening of the seal. Prior to this, the seal was not leaking as much chakra, therefore the Kyuubi wouldn't interfere with Naruto's chakra as much. That was my argument so get off your high horse.
And again, even with Orochimaru's seal, Naruto was able to preform Kage Bushin which takes some deal of chakra control, so his control wasn't completey fucked up.
Actually, he tried to put elemental recomposition into rasengan, as the fourth intended, but was unable to. Therefore, he created his own jutsu, which simply concentrated lightning element chakra in the palm of his hand with very little or even no spatial manipulation, which combined with the speed in which it should be used, becomes a deadly piercing blade, completely different from Rasengan.
However, you are right, his efforts to create Chidori were sparked from his failure to combine an element with rasengan.
Also, Naruto always had chakra control problems because that's just how he is. A ninja with piss poor chakra control but amazing stamina and chakra pool. I do believe that Ebisu pointed out the difference in chakra control between him, sakura, and Sasuke (IIRC, Sakura could make 5 clones with a set amount of chakra, and sasuke could make 4 with that same amount, while Naruto would need twice the amount of chakra to make 2 clones).
IIRC, he also did momentarily tap into kyuubi's chakra when he fought Mizuki, but I may be wrong on that (read that a long time ago... so shady memory).
The only time that his chakra control was further screwed over by kyuubi over normal (because yes, it does eskew his chakra control, but he has learned to deal with it), was when Orochimaru sealed it with like a 4 finger seal (odd number vs. even number or something like that caused worse chakra control) in the forest of death during the chuunin exams, and Jiraiya fixed that and his chakra control was back to normal (which is still quite mediocre compared to the likes of Sakura).
Anyways, i am going to have to agree witht he assessment that naruto is not a natural born genius. I mean, PERHAPS, if he had a mother and father to train him in the ninja ways as a young boy like say... Sasuke, he would have ended up at the top of his class as well, but instead, he was shunned by the village, which lead to attention seeking pranks instead of diligent ninja training. But who knows, what happened has happened, so let's not get into that. So instead, naruto was forced to make up for all his wasted years by working his ass off to accomplish some feats that others have found incredibly easy (eg. walking on water). However, he has shown that his tactical skills in battle are probably at the genius level, as his improvisation is unmatched by any ninja we have seen (I would call Shikamaru's abilities to be more strategic than tactical, since he already thinks of possible opponent moves so he can have an ideal battle plan no matter what happens). Similarly, his huge chakra pool allows him to train incredibly fast, so much faster than any other ninja (even faster than learning via sharingan I would say).
Lee is a tough subject, since he also has worked his butt off to get where he is, and has no aptitude in genjutsu or ninjutsu. However, I think that he may have had inborn genius-level potential in taijutsu, but that cannot be confirmed as we don't know what his family is like.
I agree with your entire post, but just wanted to make a few things clear.
Yes, you are right. Chidori wouldn't exist if it weren't for the rasengan
[bold] No, he was not able to add his "elemental recomposed of lightning" with a "spatial recomposed chakra" of rasengan.
Where does it say that? Please show me a link, please. I'm positive no where in the manga it says that. If so, please show me
Granted, not everyone can do what Naruto can do. Having the Kyuubi's evil chakra mixing with Naruto's chakra is not something everyone can do. Naruto's chakra is not regular, it is much far stronger than the ordinary ninja.
"The only reason you are able to withstand the Kyuubi's chakra, is because of the strength your chakra" poof
I'm sorry.. that offended you, wasn't my intention Delbi. I just like to explain my points thoroughly to everyone, partly because I hate repeating myself.
Though, your offensive response was childish.
Your exact response is a reason why I'm treating you like a child in the first place? hmm the irony. Like what Yondaime Uzumaki said, "Use your head before you type", in this way your offensive remarks don't come so loosely
[bold] Yes, proving my point even further. As the seal becomes loose, Kyuubi transformation can occur at a rapid rate. Minato's hakke seal contains a double elephant seal, and the other seals(forgot name).
As those seals get loose, the more access Naruto's chakra has with the Kyuubi's chakra. Since Naruto can't control shit... naruto's own chakra gets put aside. Hence the Kyuubi's transformation.
Last edited by The Flash; March 31, 2009 at 09:01 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost