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Kakashi said that Naruto would be able to surpass Minato, a genius.
When Naruto OHKO'ed Asura path, Fukasaku and Gamabunta had a conversation on how Naruto posture was very similar to Minato's and Jiraya, with Fukasaku saying that it looked like Naruto had surpassed those who came before him.
So, IMO Naruto is a genius: he mastered two techniques in extremely short amounts of time, techniques that highly intelligent and skilled individuals couldn't master in larger amounts of time.
True, he used the KB cheat code, but maybe Jiraya and Minato could've used it and still not complete the jutsus, because their insight isn't as good as Naruto IMO: a good example are the Sage frogs: Naruto enters Sage mode faster than them, yet he trained for less than a month (considering the Kage Bushin) and they are over 900 years old.
Last edited by hakuthehedgehog; May 14, 2010 at 05:07 PM.
The concept of genius in Naruto much like the concept of chakra levels in Naruto is skewed and used as a way to set up the reader for certain expectations of a character, other than that it's just about pointless. I believe the whole idea was to just differentiate people that had similar rank
2) All the rules and regulations of physics still apply to this manga, which would mean the Raikage's body is incapable of moving at the speed you said unless we are told otherwise. Again, his body would tear itself apart if he moved faster than Kirin. Gravity, repulsion forces of the Shinra Tensei, and Kirin's dynamics all prove that the laws of physics apply in the realm of Naruto.
3) If we haven't seen it, theres no point in speculating about it becasue we have no evidence to support the claim. When you have evidence, let me know. Otherwise, I'm going on what we have seen and heard, not what our imaginations can come with it. What ifs and maybes don't mean anything unless they have some evidence to back them up. And no, being a certain rank is not grounds for evidence.
4) I've read plenty of Shounen, and within this manga there are plenty of shinobi who aren't as dumb as Nagato or Kakazu. They were both over confident in their abilites and failed to defeat their opponent who was severly undermatched against them for the most part. So excuse me for looking down on the two of them.
5) O yes, only after the Kyuubi bailed him out and essentially made him faster and recharged him. He displayed his intelligence only after he got his ass kicked for nearly the entire fight. And then, he manages to win with one punch. Very realistic.
6) Pa wanted to trap Animal Realm in there to destroy the dog summons they couldn't defeat, not because of the shared vision so get the facts straight there.
Deva proved to us its rather easy to dodge FRS when he basically jumped over it. And why the hell couldn't of Hungry Ghost realm jumped in front of the one that killed animal realm and absorbed it? He was fast enough, but chose not to for some stupid reason. The only explanation would seem to be that Nagato couldn't think fast enough to do that.
Naruto did not learn FRS in a short amount of time. Firstly, he had to have Tenzou and Kakashi help him with the basic formula for it as he didn't even know the basics, proving once again he's no genius. Then, with Kage Bushins, he had YEARS of training under his belt before he completed the jutsu. So he didn't do it quick.
Minato and Jiraiya could not have used the Kage Bushin trick to the extent Naruto did. If they did, it would for arguments sake, increase their training time x5 if they had 4 clones plus the orginal. Naruto was making hundreds of clones at a time, and when his chakra ran out he used the Kyuubi's. No one can do what he did.
Last edited by Delbi; May 14, 2010 at 05:50 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
There are afterimages there because it is moving too fast for the human eye to keep a clear track of.
Last edited by Lord Abortion; May 14, 2010 at 06:31 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
As far as clan techniques, same thing really. If they aren't bloodline limits then the reason they STILL aren't even similar is other people don't/can't learn those techniques because those clans keep the training for those techniques a closely guarded secret. It's not about ability, it's just about being born into a clan.
On the other hand Lee openning those gates AND Naruto making FRS and learning to be a perfect sage are things that other people can attempt as proven by the fact Kakashi and the 4th attempted to add nature to rasengan and a load of stone frogs attempted to become a sage.
So Naruto completed 2 incredibly powerful techniques that almost anyone can try (as long as they have the chakra) but almost all fail at. So his success is special, not simply an issue of genetics or having the training availible.
So again, if Lee is a genius for openning those gates I really don't see why Naruto isn't a genius for FRS and perfect sage mode. Comparing it to bloodline limits and clan techniques makes no sense at all.
Last edited by Bonfire01; May 14, 2010 at 06:56 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Last edited by jdw; May 14, 2010 at 07:07 PM.
First what on earth are you talking about when you say normal physics applies to the manga? People have been moving waaaaaaaaaay faster than is physically possible for ages! We have elements appearing out of thin air, we have someone producing ridiculous levels of gravitational force over finite areas where in reality that much gravity at the distance shown when pain blew up Konaha would have continued to effect objects at a much greater distance to a reducing degree. Not a uniform distribution over a finite area. Kishi throws in a few bits to keep us emersed BUT real world physics it isn't. ps.... if you want to say ninja techniques are integral to plot so not obeying physics shouldn't matter it still doesn't cover the completely unrealistic effects of God reals Gravity technique.
Lastly I know Pa wanted to get the summons killed BUT where on earth are these "facts" to support you saying getting Animal path into Bun's mouth was nothing to do with shared sight? If he didn't care about the sight why get the path in there in the first place. We'd already seen Naruto was way faster than any path when he was in sage mode so it can't be just to stop the animal path escaping. So although it's not explicitly stated the reason that makes most sense is that it was to break shared sight! Even if you say I have no proof (fair enough point) you have ABSOLUTELY no proof either. You are just stating an opinion, as am I. Just so happen mine makes a bit more sense IMO and you're only stating yours to support your arguement, not cause it's logical.
Last edited by Bonfire01; May 14, 2010 at 07:05 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Honestly, I don't really feel that Naruto should have been said to have surpassed those two. That implies that Minato and Jiraiya were only skilled at using raw power, Which isn't the case at all. They possessed other skills which Naruto has yet to overcome.
It was never about Naruto figuring out something no one else has ever done. Naruto was able to learn the FRS because of his clones which Minato and Kakashi can't do and Naruto didn't become a stone toad because Pa was there to keep him from turning into one. Not to mention the stone toads don't tell us how many people succeed and how many failed. Thus it's a one sided comparison. That's nothing like with Lee, Whose disability would have normally prevented something like learning the Eight Gates. Naruto's success is special, But not in the way Lee's was special. Naruto was able to do the things he did because unlike the others, He had people to push him along and the unique power of the Kyuubi. Lee lack the ability to become an actual ninja and with nothing to help him was able to learn to use the Gates.
Even if you wave your hand in front of your face it will leave a blur. So I'm just saying if you could move that fast it would leave the blur, although I agree with you that its not possible under real world conditions for a person to side step and make a slight after image.
I'm well aware that the physics aspect of the whole scenerio would provide more force to his punches by virtue of how fast he is moving. But we clearly saw with his Laiger Bomb and Leg Drop that his most powerful moves don't involve him moving terribly fast, in fact he was standing still for both of those.
Normal physics due apply to the manga as I've previously stated. Gravity is still at work, Kirin was basically a physics and chemistry lesson, and Tsuande and Naruto's fast passed regeneration shortening their life spans is based on truth.
Now, people moving way faster than they should is not them breaking the laws of physics, but them doing things that are humanly impossible to us. The human body is still capable, physically of handling the stress of moving at high speeds, just take what astrounauts due when they come back into earths orbit as an example.
I wasn't talking about people doing things that are humanly impossible, but impossible by the laws of physics. So the Raikage will never move as fast as a lightning bolt because his body wouldn't be able to take it.
Moving on, elements don't appear out of thin air, they are made from chakra which is a fictional type of energy. So there is an explanation as to how they are formed, it just happens to do with the rules of the manga and not our own rules. Even still, these elements that appear still have to work within the realms of real world physics. Katon's can't move that fast, same with Suitons because of their mass. (Ameratsu doesn't move fast, it appears so lets not get into that).
As for God Realms gravity techniques. They would be impossible if it was gravity and repulsion he was using. This was only a theory by Kakashi, it was never proven and I'm waiting for the next databook so we can get some kind of explanation. Or perhaps Madara will once explain it to us. If it was Gravity, I'd gladly admit I was wrong, but Kakashi's opinion is not proof.
As for the second paragraph, I don't know what the hell you are talking about.
Animal Realm needed to be killed because her summons were doing the only real damage out of all the Pain bodies. So, they seperated her from the group and put her in Bunta's mouth so no one would disturb Naruto trying to kill her. By virtue of it being dark, the shared vision didn't work, but how was Pain trying to use his shared vision to help him fight Naruto? It could have been light and the result would have been in the exact same in Bunta's mouth.
Last edited by Delbi; May 14, 2010 at 09:48 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
devised a plan to cut the shared vision of the rinnegan. This resulted in Ma using Sage Tech Dust Cloud, and then Pa threw Bunta toward Naruto, then Bunta put the summoning Pain in his mouth. Breaking the shared vision confused Pain, and none of them knew where to find the summoner!. Even if Pain doesn't say "i'll use shared vision right now!!!" the fact that they share vision allows then to help each other, etc (like when they used it to dodge FRS and also helped each other). Pa's plan removed the possibility of help because he blinded the Pain bodies before having Bunta place one in his mouth. So, after Pain used shared vision to dodge FRS and help each other, Pa broke the shared vision to take a Pain and Isolate him so that Naruto could take him out without the others knowing where the intended victim was.
Last edited by jdw; May 14, 2010 at 10:21 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
The whole reason this was done was to stop the dogs though. It had nothing to do with stopping the Pain's from using their shared vision, that wasn' t what its intention was which is what I was getting at.
My other point was that Pain never used the shared vision to his advantage. If all the Pain bodies have the same general perspective, which is what they had for the majority of the fight, then the shared vision is useless. Naruto never had to deal with the fact that their shared vision hindered them because they all came at him straight on. His summons also took the heat off of him from all the other summons like they were supposed to.
And I fail to see how helping one another out constitues to something you can only do if you have shared vision. They could all see the FRS coming at them and knew the danger it posed. Any ninjas would have been capable of doing that reguardless.
The difference between Jiraiya and Naruto's fight with Pain was Naruto had information. The location was also important. Pain couldn't all of the sudden surround Naruto, especially since he had to protect Deva and Naraku. Nagato's shared vision excels in an area with hills or rocks in sight or areas that can be hard for one person to fully see. In an open area, unless the bodies surround the enemy, the shared vision isn't used at its best. Not to mention, Jiraiya had one boss summon whereas Naruto had at least three.
All the numbers in the databook are useless.
The best measure of a person's intellect is the way in which he or she fights in combat. If you fight smartly you are smart. If you are not fighting smartly you are not smart. Plain and simple. Screw the numbers.
As for who is a genius and who is not, try inventing at least one new jutsu first then we can start talking. Otherwise it's similar to claiming that a student is bright when he has never gotten any A.
Last edited by Ryr; May 18, 2010 at 12:56 PM. Reason: simple not simply
As for invention of jutsu being some kind of litmus test for who is a genius, I will ask you to back this up with facts. You said it, now support it fully. The manga has made references to a few people worthy enough to be called a "genius," so if you would provide the at least one invented jutsu from each of them, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.