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That said, I do agree that Itachi has been proven to be a Genius (and I also can not see how people could not see that through reading the manga)
Have just read over some more of this duscussion. Again people are going on about the Sharingan, and about a Ninja's skill. Genius doesn't necessarily mean skillful. You can have a very powerful ninja who is not a genius, and likewise you can have a very underpowered shinobi who is (Shikimaru is a prime example, lacking all of the massive destruction ninjutsu's/hax genjutsu's that other ninjas have).
I now remember why I left this topic ages ago when it was still pretty much a Naruto vs Sasuke topic : /
Last edited by zimbardo; August 09, 2011 at 09:00 PM.
Nagato did lose at least one body in every fight we've seen him in so far. Against Jiraiya, it was three bodies, against Konoha, it was two (Konohamaru and Kakashi and his backup had the honor of taking out a body each). Hell, if Asura wasn't able to move, Deva would have been taken out as well.
Let's stop the personal attacks guys. Keep it friendly
Now I am going to show you how badass Itachi XXXXX would be in a fight against Itachi Uchiha by your logic.
Amaterasu? -> useless against Itachi XXXXX
Your post - June 22, 2011 -> http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...s-Sasuke/page3
Tsukuyomi? -> doesn't work at all
Your post - 23 July, 2011 -> http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...-Minato/page19
Susanoo? -> lol
Your post - April 01, 2011 -> http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...-Itachi/page27
Here we are. There is Itachi XXXXX who can avoid all MS Jutsus and Itachi Uchiha who is feeling the side effects of MS and has not much chakra left after the usage of Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi/Susanoo.
Sounds like Itachi XXXXX wins this. Genius!
When have we ever seen Nagato battle without the Rin'negan, M3J? You're making an assumption out of nothing. Now, if Nagato "has shown to be average" without Rin'negan, then show me pages/chapters where. Also, since when does being only "remotely" good let you murder a whole village by yourself?Quote:
I think M3J's point is that the Rinnegan's hax abilities enable Nagato to take out an entire village. However, remember that Nagato didn't grow up a ninja like Itachi, so it's unfair to judge his abilities without the Rinnegan based on what he could do prior to awakening it. That being said, considering his blinding arrogance and overall lack of combat strategy, I can see why people don't think he's anything special without the Rinnegan.
I mean, apparently the Rinnegan gave him...
6 Element manipulation
6 Paths of abilities, as well as the ability to control corpses to utilise said abilities.
The ability to freaking raise the dead?
The Rinnegan is pretty hax. It even sees chakra and barriers and crap.
I'm making an assumption based on what we've seen, and we've seen Rin'negan be amazing, not Nagato. I most likely am being unfair towards Nagato, but he hasn't so far shown anything remarkable that wasn't related to his Sharingan.
For example what have:
1/ Haku shown without his ice release?
2/ Ōnoki shown without his dust release?
3/ Yamato/Hashirama shown without their mokuton?
4/ Mei shown without her lava or boil kekkei genkais?
5/ Kimimaro shown without his bone kekkei genkai?
Kekkei genkais are rare, and massively powerful, so of course people will learn to base their entire fighting style around them. Are you going to claim that none of the above ninja are amazing just because their skills can be directly linked to their kekkei genkais?
As far as I see it, the only reason why the Sharingan and Byakugan do not really fit this scheme (though the gentle fist is pretty much solely due to the Byakugans powers) is that they don't supply the user with massively overpowered techniques (except for the MS, but that has severe side effects that would negate ones ability to build their entire fighting techniques around it's powers), but just supply the user with an edge in combat.
The thing we need to keep in mind about Nagato is that he trained himself how to use the Rinnegan. He was the only one who had it at the time, so no one should have been able to teach him the techniques. I think that's pretty impressive.
To be fair, we haven't seen him in a serious fight yetQuote:
Hashirama had genjutsu, and we also haven't seen a serious fight from him. Yamato hasn't had a serious fight, but I can't imagine that mokuton alone allowed him to become a respected ANBU member (actually, I guess I could, but he would need decent supplementary abilities, such as speed, taijutsu, etc.)Quote:
Again, hasn't been in more than a skirmish with a worn-down SasukeQuote:
Impressive speed and taijutsu. Not to mention his willpowerQuote:
To be fair, I think the ones that have actually had Nagato-level screen time and fights have actually shown skill outside of their kekkai genkai.
I can agree with this to a certain extent. I think that if your kekkai genkai is so hax that you don't need to really learn how to be a ninja, some fans will be less impressed with you. It also helps that we know that Neji's mastery of the Byakugan (for example) is due to both his innate talent and his training. If we had an example of a Rinnegan-user that didn't know all of his abilities (or if we saw how Nagato functioned before activating the 6 paths, etc), these fans would probably be more impressed with Nagato. It hurts that apparently just gaining the Rinnegan gave him mastery of 6 elements though...even Sharingan, with its copying can't give you the ability to use elements you don't possess, IIRC.Quote:
---------- Post added at 08:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:15 PM ----------
Edit: It probably also hurts that unlike the Sharingan and Byakugan, which need to be specifically activated to be used, the Rinnegan seems to just be there (unless it's just Nagato having enough chakra to keep it activated at all times)
We haven't seen Oonoki, Mei, Yamato, or Hashirama in more than one or two fights, if not short skirmishes. We saw Hashirama and Madara run at each other and fight, which implies Hashirama must have been decent in taijutsu that Madara's Sharingan didn't give him a significant advantage.
Kimimaro showed some taijutsu ability, when he fought Lee.
Neji has Byakugan, and most of his jutsu so far were all self-taught. That makes Neji a genius. Hinata has Byakugan, but apparently she isn't that good, because she's not able to pick up jutsu her father teaches her easily.Quote:
Outside of kekkei genkai, the users have shown intelligence. Neji and Sasuke are examples, and so is Haku. It wasn't just sole reliance on their kekkei genkai, like "hey, let's spam Mokuton!" It was "how, when, and where can I use this Mokuton so that it benefits me more?" My point is that Nagato has shown to be fodder if it weren't for his Rin'negan, whereas Itachi, Neji, and Sasuke have shown to be intelligent and talented without their respective doujutsu.
I will just start from the top - all spoilered as a lot of text replying to 2 people.
Last edited by zimbardo; August 11, 2011 at 09:24 PM.
Haku was also able to do pretty well against Sasuke in a taijutsu fight, though, although Sasuke (if I recall correctly) got the better of him.
He still had to be good at taijutsu otherwise he'd have been knocked back by Rock Lee. Hell, we don't know how good he'd be if he was healthy.Quote:
But Nagato had Jiraiya to teach him the fundamentals. Can you really say Nagato would have been able to teach himself Rin'negan if Jiraiya didn't help teach him? Plus, for all we know Nagato may have found something to help him learn, like a journal from Rikudou Sennin. Otherwise, how would he have known that RIkudou Sennin used Chibaku Tensei?
Exactly why Nagato is kind of an idiot in that area: he got too cocky believing his Rin'negan was powerful even after he lost bodies, especially to Konohamaru.Quote:
My point is though, that Nagato is nothing without his Rin'negan. I'm not saying he has no right to use Rin'negan or spam it, but he hasn't shown to be good on his own for the most part. Any jutsu he uses, he needs Rin'negan to do it, some exception examples being when he dodged FRS with Deva by jumping over it.
Could be him, could be Kabuto who planned it, we don't know for sure, nor do we know what his aim was. Nagato may have just been using Shinra Tensei to push the ninjas away and tried to take out Killerbee, but got lariated and used that to his advantage.Quote:
Though either way, Nagato did show he was smarter than given credit for in the latest chapters.
But Nagato didn't use the Rin'negan, it did something on its own (which is more of an asspull than Sasuke summoning a hawk and whatever else, but no one points this out, funnily enough). He learned to use it or use it better because Jiraiya trained him, although he most likely didn't train Nagato to use Rin'negan. Could be that Rin'negan is mostly a passive ability, Nagato wouldn't need to do anything to know all five elements other than learn it.Quote:
But if Jiraiya didn't teach him the fundamentals, like how to use chakra, how to do jutsu, can you really say Nagato could have used his Rin'negan the way he did?
How could you know that itachi xxxx has his intelligence, intellect, hand seal speed, kunai/shuriken skills, element affinities, clones, finger genjutsu, and exploding clones?
as you know, the sharingan has the power to copy any technique. Maybe uchiha itachi seen/copy the exploding clones or some of his techniques. And i think his hand seal speed was base from his fighting experience by using his sharingan
ANd i think the finger genjutsu was based from uchiha's sharingan. Afterall, the effect is the same as sharingan's genjutsu.
element affinities? itachi x maybe doesn't have the same element of uchiha itachi.
Kunai/shuriken skills? maybe not/yes. I think itachi was trained by his father in this skills.
And i think this whole topic is kinda useless. BEcause talking away itachi's sharingan is really baseless and i think it's not right.
---------- Post added at 01:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 PM ----------
This arguement about nagato not showing anything besides rinnegan is a joke. We simply didn't get to see the times when he didn't use it cause it was irrelevant to the manga. The only real way to judge the genius of a person is how good use he can make of his gifts...like neji(genius of hyuuga, cause his great of byakugan), kimimaru, haku. Nagato was brilliant in that respect. Coming up with 7pains is one of the greatest devises any shinobi has come up with. He was able to defeat the likes of jiraya in full fledged battles without even risking himself. His chakra controll is astounding...even better than yamanakas, as said in the manga. And its not only because of rinnegan, cause not all yamanakas are of same calibre despite them all having same secret jutsu, meaning it took oneself to better his ability with chakra...which nagato obviously did. He was able to master jutsus of all five elements. That's incredible. His strategy against konoha was top notch. In the latest chapter he was able to perfectly react to V2 B's lariet, which shows great reflex and speed.
Last edited by ashher; August 12, 2011 at 01:54 AM.