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Translations: Bleach 595 (2)
Basically, he's only cast one tech one-handedly...I can't remember any examples of bloodline techs that needed a string of seals either. He also used a regular two-handed seal to cast his mirror tech. But, like you said, there is a possibility that Haku can only cast his Ice Element techs with one-hand.Quote:
But you saw me recant my Yamato thoughts mid-post o.O. He would still need decent all-around skills to be a high-level ANBU member though.Quote:
I still don't think Nagato showed impressive speed, but everyone else seems to, so I conceded that. Nagato's taijutsu still isn't really impressive to me. Naruto isn't really impressive taijutsu-wise, he's just stronger and faster than almost everyone, so his taijutsu has improved (plus in Sage mode, he can attack with nature energy). Bee actually is good at taijutsu, but Nagato's counter consisted of using Preta Path to pwn. Not really the same as Kimimaru being able to read and counter Rock Lee (even though Lee was injured) as well as being able to not take a single hit from 1000 Naruto clones.Quote:
Regarding the willpower, eh. Unless he was already dying from an illness a la Itachi/Kimimaro, it actually looks more stupid than anything else to do what he did, especially considering he was warned that Naruto was strong AND he should've known that Jiraiya got information out to Konoha regarding his abilities.
You could also say that Kimimaro leaving his bed was stupidity, but of course, considering he actually helped Orochimaru achieve his initial goal (which was the plan in the first place after Sasuke was late), he fared better than Nagato. Kimimaro was basically dead, and he fought Kyuubi-fueled Naruto, injured/drunken Rock Lee, and fresh Gaara (who had improved since his fight with Lee). To me, what Kimimaro did was far more impressive than a reset button that couldn't reach back to Jiraiya.
If you have a feeling of how to do it once you get the eyes, then I don't really see how Nagato's use of the abilities is impressive. Again though, we don't have anyone to compare him to, so it's not like showing Sasuke can manipulate Amaterasu's flames, Itachi can manipulate time with Tsukuyomi, etc. And even though Tobi hasn't shown much yet, his belief that he could just use Human Path to steal Yamato's knowledge, along with him creating the 6 paths leads me to believe he knows what he's doing.Quote:
Again, considering that Tobi states that he gave the Rinnegan to Nagato, I don't see how we can just assume that Tobi had nothing to do with Nagato learning how to use the Rinnegan.
Honestly, the only thing I really saw as impressive from Nagato was that he could control those 6 bodies all at the same time, even when they were involved in other fights. There wasn't an obvious increase in ability from the bodies when they only had one opponent to focus on (Naruto or even Jiraiya), but the fact that he could send them all out to do various things was very impressive. The way he was able to do that is probably the best counter to the argument that he's not impressive without the Rinnegan, even if it's the Rinnegan that allows him to do it. Everything else just seemed kinda meh. Just looking at the Hanzou example, he was able to summon Gedo Mazo, and repelled the initial attacks from the Leaf ninja (probably by using Shinra Tensei). If he could do that, why didn't he just absorb the explosion completely with Preta Path's ability?
I'd like to note though, I actually said that comparing him to Itachi, Minato, etc. isn't really fair since he didn't grow up a ninja. I'm just helping to articulate the argument that Nagato isn't impressive outside of his kekkai genkai abilities, lol.
Well I have to say that Nagato's jutsus are probably self-taught as well...the Rinnegan is an eye technique it's not a sentient being, it unlocks abilities, does not teach them...so Nagato had to find out about each path and use their powers, had to know about the reviving jutsu etc...
He created many nice abilities, which probably do require intelligence and skill(much like in Sharingan's case, where high intelligence like Itachi's made him use genjutsu in the ways he did)...like the Shapeshifting ability that he used against Kakashi and Gai...that was Pein's technique...I would assume that the defense barrier and the jutsu placed on the seals is Pein's jutsu as well...and those are not really jutsus that center around any path...
He created the idea of different corpses and use them as vessels for his ability...that's pretty damn good and managed to fool a great Sannin for a long time, and would've fooled an entire village, full of geniuses if it weren't for that Sannin...and for that he needed to teach himself how to recreate the eye, to know that there is the possibility of linked vision etc...
What I'm trying to say here, is that even though Rinnegan unlocks almost every ability and makes the user to master them without much difficulty, Nagato still had to create techniques that are worthy of the eye, to create stuff that use the eye's potential to great lengths...
So I think he is a very skilled ninja, though I agree not a genius...he is skilled because of what I just wrote before, but we also know he was a part of a bloody civil war, against the forces of the mighty Hanzou and possibly Konoha...so he fought a lot, survived many battles etc, so he must have the basic skills(taijutsu, ninjutsu, genjutsu, speed, planning ability w/e) on a pretty good level because of that...teamwork once again as we've seen is pretty mastered...I mean just look how he managed to go against a version 2 Lariat and then take control of mega-Naruto and how he used his paths in teamwork to defeat foes...so he is quite good...
But he is not a genius in the sense that Kakashi, Itachi, or whoever are, because of the Rinnegan, which sort of negates the idea of genius at least in battle and jutsu terms...and he is definitely no Shikamaru...but again that is because he has the Rinnegan, and he as sooo many abilities to fill in for that...
I think it is a bad idea using his battle with Naruto and considering his loss to be part of the argument that Nagato is average, without the Rinnegan...because he showed great speed when he just passed Bunta in two moves to block Naruto's path...and then he faced sage Naruto in point blank range, so that battle wasn't really a battle to prove anyone's taijutsu prowess
Not even mentioning the fact that Nagato himself was fighting until Naruto arrived against an entire village full of geniuses and skilled people, and he was a freakin cripple...and then he faced Naruto with the intentions of capturing him, while his secret was uncovered...so call it plot armor of Naruto, call it whatever you want, he still managed to beat Naruto, against all odds and limits, but then he had to face two things he had hard time to deal with: Kyuubi and Yondaime...now Kyuubi is a result of his ancestor the Great Sage, but its power surprised even Nagato, but in those last moments when the 9th tailed appeared, Nagato was pretty sure of himself in containing even the powerful Kyuubi...
Now facing Minato...in an indirect way of course...facing Minato was a result of an event he knew nothing about, and had no relation with, because Minato did what he did to protect his son and to combat Madara, so he had no idea about that, no way to predict what would happen, and we saw that he was mistaken, when he thought Naruto tamed Kyuubi by himself
And then a recovered Sage Naruto, then normal Naruto managed to beat an opponent with a single ability and mind you, who was already bleeding because of the overuse of his chakra...
Now please don't misunderstand me...I am not denying Naruto's ability here...because let's face it, he used some pretty good tactics in taking out all the bodies...but there were some pretty limiting things for Nagato there, so that is why I don't like to use this example at all when I talk about Nagato to assess his ability...because there were some peculiar circumstances in that fight, which kinda limit us in assessing a character's, either Naruto's or Nagato's real ability...
Don't take a fight with plot jutsu on its side to build up the arguments...look at the entire manga, look at the circumstances he grew up in, and maybe at the fact that Rinnegan by its nature denies somebody to be a genius, but maybe they are the same thing, because both terms mean that one is getting something for free, while the core meaning being: a genius and a Rinnegan user can do stuff easier than normal people could...
My whole point being that Nagato without Rinnegan is no average shinobi...and the manga has proven that
Last edited by benelori; August 12, 2011 at 07:21 AM.
Nice reply! And I do agree with some of the things you are saying.
Mokuton allows Yamato to be an incredibly flexible asset, and also a very dangerous combatant. I hardly would consider him to be a master of taijutsu/speed as he doesn't need to be. (If we are including root ANBU then Fū and Torune have hardly shown decent all round skills either (though they were only around for a rediculously short time)). The only real named ANBU that we can compare to would be Kakashi and Itachi (both of which are renound for being skilled in all aspects of ninja).
About Naruto being unimpressive at taijutsu, well I will have to disagree. Although you disregard Nagato's ability in taijutsu I will still post this of him defending very successfully without sage mode. This was a pretty good taijutsu counter. also here, and here he impresses 2 very skilled taijutsu weapon specialists. more recently, he has been seen holding his own against Itachi in taijutsu
not take a hit from 1000 Naruto clones? heh. But yes, I would agree that Kimimaru's feat was very impressive, probably harder than one shinra tensei. That said, we have yet to see anyone (Except Mizuki and Gaara who are not taijutsu specialists) really get hit from 1000 naruto clones. Though I guess Gaara is a pretty impressive man to hit.
1/ minipulating the situation so that he obtains it - i.e knowing that Nagato is likely to develop the rinnengan, perhaps he hipnotised the konoha shinobi (and the third one) to attack Nagato and his friends so that he would be forced to use his rinnengan to survive.
2/ transplanting the eyes into Nagato - though I feel that Konan/Nagato would have realised this
3/ Getting Nagato's parents together so that they would give birth to a child with senju and uchiha blood
and so on.
I personally don't believe that either Konan or Nagato met Tobi till well after the Hanzou fight.
Last edited by zimbardo; August 12, 2011 at 08:24 AM.
This is probably more of a semantic disagreement than anything else. I don't think he's a master of taijutsu, etc., I just think he's got decent all-around abilities, even removing Mokuton. He's not on Kakashi's level, for example, so I can't really consider him a genius either.Quote:
Yea, we're going to disagree on Naruto for a bit, haha. I dunno, what made Lee, Kimimaro, Neji, Sasuke, etc., impressive in Taijutsu to me was their ability to read movements and counter another individual skilled in taijutsu. Naruto was able to OHKO Preta Path IIRC when the nature energy caught him by surprise. Without Sage Mode though, he was countered pretty easily by Deva Path until he got back into Sage Mode. I'm also not sure what the base abilities of the Pain bodies are, since Human Path was able to block a Sage Mode punch with one hand at one point, yet he got sent flying by a Sage Mode kick. A few inconsistencies there, I suppose, but I guess I'm not impressed by Naruto gaining two different modes that force him to become better at taijutsu. Lee and Gai are good in taijutsu without opening the gates; the gates just make them better. Kimimaro didn't need his bone ability to read and counter Lee, or to dodge Naruto's attacks. I think it was necessary for Naruto to get these level ups, since his base skills weren't really great (although, even his base skills have increased now...I was impressed with his counters of Omoi and Karui)Quote:
Lol smartass :-PQuote:
And, I guess I'll have to re-read all of Naruto's fights, but even Sasuke with Sharingan took hits from Naruto clones in that little rooftop battle.
He definitely could've taken out Konoha...I don't know how he performs against Gai thoughQuote:
I can agree with this. We see Tobi take Konan very lightly due to his ability. I'll edit this post later.Quote:
Edit: What was impressive to me from Kimimaro was that he did all of that while dying. He showed up to the fight dying, it wasn't just that he had pushed himself to that limit. You could look at other ninja too with the reset button, as Gari of the Blast Corps said they could settle for trading blows since they were ETs, and we have Orochimaru practically begging someone to kill him with a physical attack, lol. Maybe that was the reason why it seemed like Nagato wasn't really efficient in the use of his bodies.
Understandable, since he's a liar. I'll post more on this later.Quote:
Edit: Tobi is definitely a liar, but he's also stated the thing about the Rinnegan to Zetsu (I can't really see a reason for him lying to Zetsu, but it's possible that he did). I'm sure we'll get more of an explanation as to what he meant later though. At the end of the day though, he seems to know what he's doing with it, and as M3J noted later, there was a tablet that the Uchiha had that apparently had something for Rinnegan users. Btw, it's hilarious that there was nothing for Byakugan users to read, hahahaha.
Another fair assessment.Quote:
Edit: Not much to add to this one. I am indeed making that assumption since he knew other abilities.
Last edited by UchihaHunter; August 13, 2011 at 02:23 AM.
What I'm saying is that Nagato hasn't shown much out of Rin'negan, he hasn't show as much intelligence. The plan to invade Konoha was pretty good, no disagreeing with that, but it makes sense for Nagato do have done that because he had six other bodies that he could afford to put in harm's way. However, was it really that good, considering (according to you guys anyway) that he was too busy multitasking that he got defeated by a kid?
Plus, can you really say Nagato taught himself all the techniques or most of the techniques that he's used so far? For all we know, he could have seen what the Rikudou Sennin wrote and learned from that, as there was a tablet where the higher up in the doujutsu tier you went, the more you could see: Sharingan, Mangekyo SHaringan, and Rin'negan. He even knew about Rikudou Sennin using Chibaku Tensei, so it could be likely that Rikudou Sennin wrote down stuff that only Rin'negan eyes could read. I'm not saying this is a fact, but it's a possibility.
So basically the tablet had a bunch of jutsu recipes for any future rinnegan users?
So far, hasn't Nagato show the most Jutsu out of everyone so far? I'm not talking about variations of the same techniques. Just go back and read.Quote:
To be fair though, I'm probably being too harsh on Nagato, and you guys did claim why he didn't need to bother to be that smart with the bodies, although he's never gone a fight without losing a body.
the law of the conservation of ninjutsu. The more shadow clones that he makes, the less well they invariably do.
Here, here, here, here, here, and here, show how taijutsu specialists can easily deal with Naruto's mass shadow clonage.
1/ He is better at striking poses than Jiraiya!
2/ He is stronger than someone who was going to be made the 6th(/7th) hokage!
3/ He is a shark killer extraordinaire!
4/ He can fly better than Ōnoki!
5/ His 'simple punches' are stronger than a tailed beast without a tails strongest attack!
6/ He is stronger than the sharingan!
7/ He can get away unscathed with flying kicking Jiraiya in the face!
8/ He has an intricate knowledge of nature!
9/ No one can stop someone moving as effectively as Gai!
10/ No one is more perceptive then Guy!
11/ He makes me write a list of points which all have to end in exclamation marks!
--------- I feel that perhaps we are getting a little off topic though ---------
Last edited by zimbardo; August 12, 2011 at 10:12 PM.
And Nagato knew about Chibaku Tensei, but you see, Madara knows about it as well...and we know that he has the Uchiha tablets...and when Nagato refers to that, he refers to it as more like a myth, not reality, so...
I forgot just how many of the supplementary techs Akatsuki used were from Nagato. Shouten no Jutsu alone is hax. Point taken, his combat skill doesn't really seem impressive (but I suppose with 6 puppets it doesn't have to be), but he's definitely got jutsu knowledge/diversity.
Last edited by UchihaHunter; August 13, 2011 at 02:27 AM.
Neji has the Byakugan, yeah, and he also has Kaiten, but if it weren't for his ability to send chakra out from his body and have control, then Kaiten would have been useless. Byakugan wouldn't be as useful either as Neji wouldn't be able to do Gentle Fist as effectively, so he mastered some skills on his own that didn't need Byakugan. Byakugan doesn't give him better chakra control or ability to send chakra out of his body as defense. Though, I believe as with every ninja, he was taught the basics/fundamentals of chakra control.
All Nagato would need is Rin'negan and ability to control and mold his chakra to use any jutsu, although one thing that is his own is his taijutsu ability.
First of all, there are many types of "geniuses". There are geniuses of growth/development (Minato, Neji etc), geniuses of skill and technique usage (Sasuke, Naruto, Itachi, Neji, Nagato, Kakashi etc), geniuses of IQ and general intellect (Shikamaru, Kakashi, Shikaku etc). Not fulfilling all the "genius categories" doesn't mean you're not a genius. Shikamaru is a weakling but he's still a genius. Nagato may not be a growth genius as Rinnegan sort of "allows for technique mastery", but he's certainly a genius in terms of skill usage, chakra control and perhaps even brain capacity. By brain capacity I'm aiming at Nagato controlling six bodies at once, all having an own field of vision he needs to take into consideration and all using their own technique(s), imagine how hard (impossible) that would be, now that's skill and genius. You just can't say he wasn't a genius because all of his abilities were "given to him" by the Rinnegan, the way he executed them made him a genius by default. The technique Pain basically equals genius for the simple fact of massive multitasking on an extremely high level (almost perfect) and all the other reasons pointed out above.
People easilly pass Neji as a genius, perhaps even the "greatest genius the Hyuuga clan has ever seen", but when it comes down to it Neji's abilities are ALL related and only possible due to Byakugan and being a Hyuuga. What needs to be understood is that he's a known genius for his way of executing his techniques and general skills as well as his growth. Take away growth to some (or all) extent, and Nagato fits that bill. He's a genius of skill usage and I can only assume he's a genius of chakra control as well for being able to manipulate six bodies like that. I really doubt that you get such chakra control from simply possessing the Rinnegan, that's skill not a gift. The rods most likely helped him with the distance issue, but the control was all his. And don't give me the "Naruto vs Pain" argument. Naruto had ridiculous plot shield on his side in that fight and everyone knows that. The Pain that fought Jiraiya would have slaughtered Naruto, especially if Deva was able to fight from the start.
In my opinion, characters such as Naruto, Sasuke, Itachi, Kakashi, Nagato, Neji, Shikamaru etc etc are all geniuses but in different ways.
Last panel indicates that Kaiten isn't about Byakugan, but about ability to release chakra from hands and body. Even with Byakugan, the jutsu wouldn't be as good if Neji wasn't able to send out chakra from alll parts of his body and repel the attacks. Although Kaiten requires Byakugan, which in turn requires Hyuuga genes (which could be debated due to Ao), it also needs its user to be good at sending out chakra to repel the attacks. Apparently, Kaiten and 64 Hands of Hakke were self-taught. which would elevate Neji to more than just a genius.
Nagato probably wouldn't have to learn anything or learn the way others do stuff due to Rin'negan, he can just do almost any jutsu he wants. if his skill usage was good, then he wouldn't have lost five bodies so far before his fight with Naruto.
I don't think Rin'negan affords one tremendous chakra or chakra control, that's all up to the genes of the wielder as well as talent. At the very least, it's very easy to say Nagato's immense chakra and chakra control were his own, as well as his taijutsu. Not as easy to say that about Sasuke, Itachi, and Kakashi's taijutsu with Sharingan active.