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Thread: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

  1. #676
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member samsiufan's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Because for me it goes against what made him so likable in the first place, that he wasn't a genius, and that he could still achieve awesome things and beat everyone's ass.

    I was able to deal with him being the Son of the Minato because Minato himself didn't come from some crazy clan, he was a normal guy who happened to be a genius and became Hokage and was awesome.

    But then Kushina came from one of the strongest bloodlines in the manga....

    And then Naruto was destined to do this all a long...

    IMO, making him a genius on top of that goes against everything he and this manga stood for it Part 1. To me, it ruins his character even more than he's already be ruined.

    I'm not asking for Naruto to be an idiot, in fact I hate all the shit Kishi does that makes him stupid. I HATE how he doesn't let him grow up and have a brain.

    But then, for him to make him a genius, despite the fact he's a fumbling idiot 90% time is just stupid and terrible writing.
    Fair enough...it makes sense where you are coming from.

    I think for me, I always disliked the fact that Kishi made him look stupid when I always thought he was a genius or close enough. The reason for this was how he seemed to be able to come up with strategies in the middle of a fight... yet the next minute, he will look like an idiot...
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    Jiraiya: Right, I need a title for the next book..Ah...Got it....
    THE TALE OF UZIMAKI NARUTO SASUKE
    About Pain: Yahiko provides the ideals and Nagato is the means

  2. #677
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by toussaintac View Post
    If Naruto isn't a genius, he has to at least be something like a savant. His in-battle and hairbrain ideas all show high levels of creativity. He takes the basics of strategy and adds a spin them them with the usage of his abilities. It works because nobody expects those kinds of tactics. That's what makes it genius. Not sure how he's not considered a genius within battle. He's repeatedly come up with unconventional means and ideas against different foes. Geniuses can grasp togh abstract ideas and apply them. He was able to do that as well. Mostly because of his unconventional way of thinking and learning.
    Yes, he's an idiot savant. There's no debating that, but that doesn't make him a genius.

    Difference between a savant and a genius is a savant can only think in abstract ways, and are only good at one sort of thing, like math, or music. Similar to Naruto.

    Geniuses are good at almost everything, and while they can think abstractly as well, they can also understand things normally and can do so to great lengths, something Naruto cannot do.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by samsiufan View Post
    Why are you hell bent on showing he is not? For me Naruto is a genius..last chapter proved it.. it is unprecendented what he did with the chakra....

    I guess you guys will just have to agree to disagree..
    This conversation again. It all boils down to everyone disagreeing on what "genius" means vs. what it means in the context of the manga.

    It was Shikaku's plan to distribute chakra wasn't it? Kurama made a note about Shikaku understanding his chakra or something. If anything, Naruto is a genius in the category of senjutsu. He's clearly the best human senjutsu user ever aside from maybe Kabuto- but then again he's pretty genius for boiling together a bunch of bloodlines and taking the long way around to achieve senjutsu.

    To be fair, all the main characters are geniuses in the same way that Zeus and Vishnu and Amaterasu were all geniuses: It's a manga about mythology through the POV of a bunch of teenage military recruits. True genius is a tricky thing to define- one can call Kabuto less of a genius for stealing bloodlines, but that's only a wee bit more derivative than, say, Minato creating the rasengan based on the bijuu bomb, and only 'cheating' insofar as using KB to master senjutsu is 'cheating'. It's just evil cheating as opposed to heroic cheating lol

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member samsiufan's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Yes, he's an idiot savant. There's no debating that, but that doesn't make him a genius.

    Difference between a savant and a genius is a savant can only think in abstract ways, and are only good at one sort of thing, like math, or music. Similar to Naruto.

    Geniuses are good at almost everything, and while they can think abstractly as well, they can also understand things normally and can do so to great lengths, something Naruto cannot do.
    That is harsh...that is very harsh... besides he has not demonstrated any autistic traits and he has not got serious mental disabilities... I suggest you choose your words carefully...
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    About Pain: Yahiko provides the ideals and Nagato is the means

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted toussaintac's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Yes, he's an idiot savant. There's no debating that, but that doesn't make him a genius.

    Difference between a savant and a genius is a savant can only think in abstract ways, and are only good at one sort of thing, like math, or music. Similar to Naruto.

    Geniuses are good at almost everything, and while they can think abstractly as well, they can also understand things normally and can do so to great lengths, something Naruto cannot do.
    But you miss that everyone has repeatedly called him a genius in-battle. Nobody disputes his academic aptitude. Nobody says he's like Sasuke, Kakashi, or Shikamaru. That's why I don't understand why this debate. When it comes to battle, he is pure genius. another thing I will say is that you don't need to know everything to be a genius. Genius in one area aren't going to be geniuses in all areas. If that were the case then Orochimaru, after how many years, should've figured out how to get out of a genjutsu. lol. I think the problem is you're assuming that only academically is the only way to be considerd a genius. So you're saying only characters like Sasuke and Shikamaru and Neji are geniuses. If a guy was the authority of money management, you'd call him a genius. That doesn't mean he knows other stuff like physics. Everyone has some kind of weak point in their abilties. naruto's just happens to be in school. As for his ability to fight, he's a genius. THere's a limit to being good in all areas. Sooner or later, you'll reach your limit on other stuff andyou'll like be a genius in one or two areas.
    Last edited by toussaintac; January 29, 2013 at 09:35 AM.
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    It's a bad assumption. He looks like a snake because he looks like a snake. He's never be able to become a Sage to the level Kabuto did, and his "true snake form" which he didn't create until later in life couldn't have been achieved when he was a child.

    1) Now you are contradicting yourself. You said earlier that all those ninja were only considered geniuses BECAUSE they were good in scholl. Now we should discount Naruto's performance in school to fit your argument?

    And since when did clever = genius? Please show me when that was determined. Being clever is not a quality of a genius.

    2) Naruto gained 30 years of experience from his clones. There is no debating this, Kakashi even told him that the whole point of this training was to shrink the time needed to train.

    The whole point of this argument is that we are debating about the idea of genius, how it is an intellectual property. Whether or not he was cheating is irrelevant. His brain, the thing that makes you a genius or not, took 30-40 years of experience in order for him to be capable of learning FRS.

    3) Look at this:

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v12/c101/8.html

    Neji, mastering Kaiten, ON HIS OWN.

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v12/c101/9.html

    His uncle in disbelief that he mastered ANOTHER technique on his own

    Neji getting his ass kicked is irrelevant.

    4) So he is the exception to the rule is what you are saying?

    How in the hell does being nurtured by others inspire self confidence in them? Sasuke hated everyone around him an ignored praise. He accomplished what he did out of hatred for his brother and strive to get better.

    Neji was from the Branch House. He was literally a slave. NO ONE gave him anything.

    And a tough up bringing should only have made him want to achieve more. Neji and Sasuke didn't have it easy and both achieved great things at a young age and were hailed as geniuses. They unlocked the power inside them because they had the intellect and drive to do so.

    Naruto had plenty of drive, he wanted to be Hokage, and wanted to be better than Sasuke. What did he lack? The intelligence, and it showed. But it didn't matter, because through hard work he still achieved great things.
    There is no "bad" assumption. It's an assumption precisely because there's no evidence of it. Logic just isn't on your side.

    1. I'm not contradicting myself. I said that the only indication in which they were called Geniuses was because of school, if you exclude their ocular powers, because that was precisely in the context when they were spoken about as geniuses.

    Do I have to insult your intelligence? You're debating me through 5 pages and ask me if the cleverness is the only thing that makes him Genius? Are you fucking serious?

    2. Yeah, but that's also his ability which you shouldn't question, just how I don't question, for example, Shino's bugs.

    3. What is your point through this? Naruto mastered Rasenshuriken ALONE, I've said it multiple times.

    I guess you never experienced the high of being constantly praised. That's why you probably don't understand where that's coming from. Their status doesn't matter, as well, as what they thought. They knew they were from the Genius bloodline and that they have powers yet to unlock. Naruto didn't know it. THE ONLY DIFFRENCE, YET AGAIN. I'm like a broken record in this debate.

    They didn't have it easy, but it was a piece of cake comparing to Naruto's situation.

    Naruto STILL wants to be a Hokage. And now that he knows where he hails from, now that he knows he has affection of others, his true talents are coming to light. WHICH IS WHY HE'S A GENIUS.

  7. #682
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by samsiufan View Post
    That is harsh...that is very harsh... besides he has not demonstrated any autistic traits and he has not got serious mental disabilities... I suggest you choose your words carefully...
    I was exaggerating but I'm not that far off. His lack of social skills and common sense (failing to understand Shikaku and Inochi were dead), abysmal test scores and by his own admission that he needs things explained to him slowly should all be signs of some minor mental disorder, or at the very least that his IQ is very low. It could be he is Dyslexic, which would explain quite a bit, but there is more to it than that, he simply isn't that intelligent and there's nothing wrong with that.
    Last edited by Delbi; January 29, 2013 at 09:56 AM.
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  8. #683
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Yes, he's an idiot savant. There's no debating that, but that doesn't make him a genius.
    There's plenty to debate that. First, 'idiot savant' is a horribly outdated misnomer that was used to describe Down syndrome. I don't think Naruto has a "serious mental disorder" as described in the article, much less something like autism. He's just a socially awkward dolt who's maybe got a head full of ADD at worst.

    ---------- Post added at 09:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    I was exaggerating but I'm not that far off. His lack of social skills and common sense (failing to understand Shikaku and Inochi were dead), abysmal test scores, lack of common sense, and by his own admission that he needs things explained to him slowly should all be signs of some minor mental disorder, or at the very least that his IQ is very low. It could be he is Dyslexic, which would explain quite a bit, but there is more to it than that, he simply isn't that intelligent and there's nothing wrong with that.
    ADD explains most of his problems you described, and that is nothing like autism. And needing a minute to process death isn't a wacky, retard thing to do. "There's no debating that" is a weird way to describe an exaggeration. Either way you're saying he can't be classified as a genius because he has symptoms of a mental disorder. Mutually exclusive, these concepts are not.

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  10. #684
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    There is no "bad" assumption. It's an assumption precisely because there's no evidence of it. Logic just isn't on your side.

    1. I'm not contradicting myself. I said that the only indication in which they were called Geniuses was because of school, if you exclude their ocular powers, because that was precisely in the context when they were spoken about as geniuses.

    Do I have to insult your intelligence? You're debating me through 5 pages and ask me if the cleverness is the only thing that makes him Genius? Are you fucking serious?

    2. Yeah, but that's also his ability which you shouldn't question, just how I don't question, for example, Shino's bugs.

    3. What is your point through this? Naruto mastered Rasenshuriken ALONE, I've said it multiple times.

    I guess you never experienced the high of being constantly praised. That's why you probably don't understand where that's coming from. Their status doesn't matter, as well, as what they thought. They knew they were from the Genius bloodline and that they have powers yet to unlock. Naruto didn't know it. THE ONLY DIFFRENCE, YET AGAIN. I'm like a broken record in this debate.

    They didn't have it easy, but it was a piece of cake comparing to Naruto's situation.

    Naruto STILL wants to be a Hokage. And now that he knows where he hails from, now that he knows he has affection of others, his true talents are coming to light. WHICH IS WHY HE'S A GENIUS.
    1) Sasuke was considered a genius despite his eye powers, and despite his marks in school. Kakashi noted this when fighting him. Already went into with Neji. Shikamaru had terrible test scores but was still recognized as a genius and he has no special powers to speak of. (And you've insulted my intelligence multiple times by calling me stupid but that doesn't really matter)

    2) The ability isn't the point as you obviously don't understand what I was trying to get across. YES, it's his ability, but what is his ability doing? Allowing him to train 30-40 years, in 3-4 days. His brain needs 30-40 years of knowledge to do what he did. The brain is all that matters when it comes to being a genius, as it's an intellectual property. Accomplishing something in 30-40 years is not an act of genius despite how great the accomplishment is. That was why I compared him to Sasuke, because Sasuke created Kirin in 1-2 1/2 years by comparison.

    3) No he didn't lol. He needed Kakashi and Tenzou's help, without them the couldn't have done it.

    4) I've watched children be praised to no end. Praise does not make one great, the act of being great makes one great. Parents like to praise their children all the time for sub par work. Positive re-enforcement only goes so far, believe me.

    5) It was a piece of cake compared to Naruto's situation...do you not see how fucked up in the head Sasuke is because of what he went through? Are you kidding? Neji's father was killed and he had a cursed seal put on his forehead at 4. He was then made into A SLAVE.

    I'm not saying one of the three of them had it worse, but none of them had it easy by comparison.

    ---------- Post added at 09:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    ADD explains most of his problems you described, and that is nothing like autism. And needing a minute to process death isn't a wacky, retard thing to do. "There's no debating that" is a weird way to describe an exaggeration. Either way you're saying he can't be classified as a genius because he has symptoms of a mental disorder. Mutually exclusive, these concepts are not.
    As I said I was exaggerating. But even still, I gave examples. Low test scores, lack of common sense, etc etc. Having a few examples of great intelligence does not exclude years of stupidity and lack of intelligence, hence the savant title I gave him.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member samsiufan's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    I was exaggerating but I'm not that far off. His lack of social skills and common sense (failing to understand Shikaku and Inochi were dead), abysmal test scores, lack of common sense, and by his own admission that he needs things explained to him slowly should all be signs of some minor mental disorder, or at the very least that his IQ is very low. It could be he is Dyslexic, which would explain quite a bit, but there is more to it than that, he simply isn't that intelligent and there's nothing wrong with that.
    It was way too exaggerated mate...he has shown no sign of mental disorder except the signs of a child with no parents and love....
    Focus on your circle of influence and not your circle of concern
    Jiraiya: Right, I need a title for the next book..Ah...Got it....
    THE TALE OF UZIMAKI NARUTO SASUKE
    About Pain: Yahiko provides the ideals and Nagato is the means

  12. #686
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Dattebayo!'s Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Shikamaru's grandfather.... Genius' dont have to be able to use Ninjutsu...
    Spoiler show

  13. #687
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by samsiufan View Post
    It was way too exaggerated mate...he has shown no sign of mental disorder except the signs of a child with no parents and love....
    So he's shown no signs of having ADD or Dyslexia? Granted, by today's standards any kid complaining he can't concentrate is diagnosed with something but still...
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    1) Sasuke was considered a genius despite his eye powers, and despite his marks in school. Kakashi noted this when fighting him. Already went into with Neji. Shikamaru had terrible test scores but was still recognized as a genius and he has no special powers to speak of. (And you've insulted my intelligence multiple times by calling me stupid but that doesn't really matter)

    2) The ability isn't the point as you obviously don't understand what I was trying to get across. YES, it's his ability, but what is his ability doing? Allowing him to train 30-40 years, in 3-4 days. His brain needs 30-40 years of knowledge to do what he did. The brain is all that matters when it comes to being a genius, as it's an intellectual property. Accomplishing something in 30-40 years is not an act of genius despite how great the accomplishment is. That was why I compared him to Sasuke, because Sasuke created Kirin in 1-2 1/2 years by comparison.

    3) No he didn't lol. He needed Kakashi and Tenzou's help, without them the couldn't have done it.

    4) I've watched children be praised to no end. Praise does not make one great, the act of being great makes one great. Parents like to praise their children all the time for sub par work. Positive re-enforcement only goes so far, believe me.

    5) It was a piece of cake compared to Naruto's situation...do you not see how fucked up in the head Sasuke is because of what he went through? Are you kidding? Neji's father was killed and he had a cursed seal put on his forehead at 4. He was then made into A SLAVE.

    I'm not saying one of the three of them had it worse, but none of them had it easy by comparison.
    Another note, okay. That's about it. I've insulted your statements, not your intelligence, that time. But you're pushing it now.

    I get your point but what you don't get is that the mechanics of Naruto's ability is irrelevant, in this case faster learning speed. You view it as a cheat, and that's what, I and many others, find ridiculous. If Sasuke didn't have MS in various fights, he'd surely lose. Yeah, see what I did? What you're doing. But what am I accomplishing with "WHAT IF's"? Absolutely nothing. So yeah, your points don't really downgrade Naruto's genius or powers, at least not objectively.

    That wasn't mastering Rasenshuriken's help, which you fail to grasp continuously. Kakashi nor Tenzou Didn't know shit what the outcome of that training was gonna be. Hence, Naruto ALONE MADE that technique. I don't think I can be any more clear than that.

    Praise can get into one's head if not careful enough, but if used correctly, it can be a powerful tool to reach new heights. Psychology.

    Everyone in this manga is more or less fucked up. It's the degree to which they're fucked up.

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    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by toussaintac View Post
    Surprised mods haven't ended this debate. I was quite sure it wasn't on-topic. Maybe it is.
    It's borderline...the feats Naruto showed lately are pretty uncommon...although they aren't unprecedented as I've seen mentioned here...as for Naruto being a genius or whatnot...

    Well the manga is not consistent with the term genius...but I don't think he is one...he just uses stuff that he observed being done in the past...and he has different applications...and he's been through a lot too, so he's supposed to be evolving and doing awesome things...the thing with geniuses is that they've been doing awesome things before they were mainstream

    ---------- Post added at 05:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ----------

    I'd still like to ask everyone to be careful not to wander too off topic, since it's pretty easy to just start a comparison and then talk pages worth of part 1.

    And no insults. Thanks!

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member samsiufan's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by benelori View Post
    It's borderline...the feats Naruto showed lately are pretty uncommon...although they aren't unprecedented as I've seen mentioned here...as for Naruto being a genius or whatnot...

    Well the manga is not consistent with the term genius...but I don't think he is one...he just uses stuff that he observed being done in the past...and he has different applications...and he's been through a lot too, so he's supposed to be evolving and doing awesome things...the thing with geniuses is that they've been doing awesome things before they were mainstream

    ---------- Post added at 05:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ----------

    I'd still like to ask everyone to be careful not to wander too off topic, since it's pretty easy to just start a comparison and then talk pages worth of part 1.

    And no insults. Thanks!
    Who are these (geniuses??) then? There are only a very few (struggle to fit them in one hand)...
    Focus on your circle of influence and not your circle of concern
    Jiraiya: Right, I need a title for the next book..Ah...Got it....
    THE TALE OF UZIMAKI NARUTO SASUKE
    About Pain: Yahiko provides the ideals and Nagato is the means

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