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Thread: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

  1. #751
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Roman's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    But Sasuke wasn't raised in a high regard. The majority of his childhood was him being overshadowed by his big brother and his attempts to prove his own worth to his father. Nearly all the praise he received was in regards to being "Itachi's" brother, despite his efforts to separate himself from his brother's shadow. It wasn't until a short while before the massacre that he actually got praised for being himself.

    And Naruto did have a purpose. His whole purpose was to become Hokage, even if he lacked the means to accomplish it. Not to mention, that Naruto has been receiving acceptance for several years now, and he's still acting as he previously did.
    At least he had a family which could raise him. Despite being overshadowed by Itachi, he had high expectations from others, no doubt. Naruto had nothing. His whole purpose still is to become a Hokage, but being a child without anything takes a toll on you. The debate was about achieving his potential through acknowledgment of others, yes. His behavior doesn't have anything to do with it, although that changed to.
    Last edited by Roman; January 29, 2013 at 04:22 PM.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    We literally know of at least twelve other people who were capable of handling the powers of a Bijuu, and both Kisame and Ee have stamina even greater then Naruto's.
    I am not talking about handling any Biju. Naruto and the Uzumaki are the only one to handle the Kyuubi without going on rampage. Most villages classified their bijus as failure, and obviously the cloud had a lot of intel on how to tame them. Kisame surely has stamina, and he was twice older than 12 years old Naruto. I doubt Kisame could make 500 KBs. Besides, give me a reference of Kisame having greater stamina than Naruto - because I think you are being delusional.

    Fact1: Kisame went down after receiving a single blow from V2 Killer Bee. If Samehada wasn't around, he would be dead.
    Fact2: Uzumaki body is a trade mark and well-known inheritance from Rikudo Senin
    Fact3: 617 even stated that Naruto like Kushina is the only one that can handle Kyuubi's chakra.

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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    We literally know of at least twelve other people who were capable of handling the powers of a Bijuu, and both Kisame and Ee have stamina even greater then Naruto's.
    Even if that were true, they'd still lose to him probably.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    The word genius is not specific to Naruto series. It is a universally well-defined word, and I think that Kishi used it properly. In fact, the use of genius in Naruto is consistent with the definition below. This is the third time I am posting this definition, but obviously, some people prefer to use their own definition, or part of the definition.

    gen·ius [jeen-yuhs] from dictionary.com and fitted to Naruto

    Definition 1. an exceptional natural capacity of intellect, especially as shown in creative and original work in science, art, music, etc.: the genius of Mozart. Synonyms: intelligence, ingenuity, wit; brains.

    This definition is the same as Minato, Kabuto, Orochimaru.

    Definition 2.a person having such capacity.

    This is the name given to any genius person.

    Definition 3. a person having an extraordinarily high intelligence rating on a psychological test, as an IQ above 140. Synonyms: mental giant, master, expert; whiz, brain, brainiac. Antonyms: idiot, imbecile, half-wit, dope, moron; fool, simpleton, dunce, dullard, dolt; numskull, blockhead, nitwit, ninny.

    This definition will fit the Nara clan as well as Minato, Kabuto, and Orochimaru.

    Definition 4. natural ability or capacity; strong inclination: a special genius for leadership. Synonyms: gift, talent, aptitude, faculty, endowment, predilection; penchant, knack, bent, flair, wizardry.

    This definition will fit Naruto (his body, leadership, etc), the Uchiha and Huyaga (their Sharingan and Byakugan), the Kaguya (their bones), the Uzumaki (their body).

    Definition 5. distinctive character or spirit, as of a nation, period, or language.

    I don't know much about this one. I am inclined to summon curse of hatred, will of fire, etc.

    I think anyone who want an objective discussion will see that there is no alteration of this definition in Naruto. Only the fandom is making mistakes in my opinion.
    Last edited by so6pww; January 29, 2013 at 04:39 PM.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    I'm trying to explain same things the entire day, but people generally don't know how to think objectively. Fixations on a certain thing without the possibility to prove it wrong, even when there's evidence. But I guess that's the reason there always will be discussions.

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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    At least he had a family which could raise him. Despite being overshadowed by Itachi, he had high expectations from others, no doubt. Naruto had nothing. His whole purpose still is to become a Hokage, but being a child without anything takes a toll on you. The debate was about achieving his potential through acknowledgment of others, yes. His behavior doesn't have anything to do with it, although that changed to.
    Not really, as we were shown expectations for him were all based upon him being Itachi's brother. And Naruto hardly had nothing. We know he hung out with the likes of Shikamaru and Kiba part of the time, so he wasn't friendless, and obviously in the early years he must have had someone raise him, as a newborn baby clearly can't raise itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    I am not talking about handling any Biju. Naruto and the Uzumaki are the only one to handle the Kyuubi without going on rampage. Most villages classified their bijus as failure, and obviously the cloud had a lot of intel on how to tame them. Kisame surely has stamina, and he was twice older than 12 years old Naruto. I doubt Kisame could make 500 KBs. Besides, give me a reference of Kisame having greater stamina than Naruto - because I think you are being delusional.

    Fact1: Kisame went down after receiving a single blow from V2 Killer Bee. If Samehada wasn't around, he would be dead.
    Fact2: Uzumaki body is a trade mark and well-known inheritance from Rikudo Senin
    Fact3: 617 even stated that Naruto like Kushina is the only one that can handle Kyuubi's chakra.
    Naruto has gone on rampages several times, and the only reason Mito and Kushina wouldn't have would have been because they were actually wielding the Kyuubi's power, but simply sealing it away. Most villages didn't classify their Jinchuuriki as failures. Gaara and Kirabi's family are the only ones we saw considered failures. Neji compared a 30% Kisame to the last time he saw Naruto, who was being powered by the Kyuubi's chakra. We were also told by Chojuro how Kisame was basically a Bijuu without a tail. Without the Kyuubi's chakra, Naruto only has about twice as much as a regular person, given that compared to Kakashi he has four times as much.

    Kirabi taking Kisame down doesn't disprove anything. Naruto has been taken down dozens of times too. An inheritance from the Rikudou Sennin doesn't make one superior. Karin's an Uzumaki and she sucks at fighting. And the Kyuubi was obviously just talking about that one situation, as we know both Mito and the KinGin brothers were also capable of handling it's chakra.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    Even if that were true, they'd still lose to him probably.
    Yeah, but that would be situational, and I wouldn't assume Naruto would do that well.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    The word genius is not specific to Naruto series. It is a universally well-defined word, and I think that Kishi used it properly. In fact, the use of genius in Naruto is consistent with the definition below. This is the third time I am posting this definition, but obviously, some people prefer to use their own definition, or part of the definition.
    But the definition by which we're classify characters is specific. As repeatedly mentioned, being considered a genius is more then simply having certain abilities. Thus the reason Neji and Sasuke have been called one but Hinata and Obito haven't. Neither the Kaguya nor Uzumaki have ever been referred to as geniuses, and Naruto has never shown any real leadership ability.
    Last edited by Rikudou King; January 29, 2013 at 05:01 PM.

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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    But the definition by which we're classify characters is specific. As repeatedly mentioned, being considered a genius is more then simply having certain abilities. Thus the reason Neji and Sasuke have been called one but Hinata and Obito haven't. Neither the Kaguya nor Uzumaki have ever been referred to as geniuses, and Naruto has never shown any real leadership ability.
    Neji and Sasuke had a better potential and talent than Hianta and Obito. That's why they're called Geniuses because their talent is of higher degree than that of Hinata's. They haven't because there was obviously no reason to. Naruto and Kimimaro are the ones whose talents excel more than mediocrity. Which should be considered genius. He pretty much showed everything a leader does in the last chapter - leading an attack with rising morale of his army.

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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    I'm trying to explain same things the entire day, but people generally don't know how to think objectively. Fixations on a certain thing without the possibility to prove it wrong, even when there's evidence. But I guess that's the reason there always will be discussions.
    I'm thinking objectively here, whether you or the others like it or not. If I was biased, I'd say Naruto was the bestest and say Sasuke sucks rather than recognize that Sasuke IS a genius, and that Naruto isn't. Judging from yours and others' posts, none of you are being objective as well. At the end, our concept of genius is based on personal opinions, although the manga establishes that Naruto is by no means a genius, ntohing like Sasuke or Neji or Minato.

    So far, majority who claim to be objective or tell others to be objective or complain about fandom aren't better and in some cases, even worse.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    MY DEFINITION OF GENIUS IS MUCH BETTER THAN YOURS

    WITH THE FEELING SO PURE

    MY DEFINITION OF GENIUS WALKS RIGHT THROUGH THE DOOR~


    For how much activity this conversation has gotten, it is an agonizingly stupid exchange. Kishi has never sat down and himself said "this is what genius is". Instead, he's had multiple characters say what it is from multiple perspectives. Naruto and Neji's last exchange before the latter's death cements the fact that people don't know what the hell they're talking about when it comes to gauging genius... which has hilariously manifested here IRL. Either you think that people like Naruto and Lee are geniuses of an exotic variety, or you outright deny them the same praise that people like Sasuke and Kakashi get by pointlessly redefining what a word means to suit your own argument.

    Intellectuality /= genius. It's just an indicator. Swift comprehension /= genius. It's also just an indicator. Bloodline is another indicator of potential genius, but it doesn't define it. Kishi spent most of Part I trying to get that point across. Very few non-genius characters have gotten any real spotlight in this manga that is almost entirely about 'genius' and what that means. Even Sakura has a flare of genius, in the field of medicine. If nothing else, Naruto is a true genius of empathy at least (if unrealistic).

    At its core, this conversation reminds me of Jiraiya and Oro arguing over what a "shinobi" is. Just like this bit about 'genius', I bet they'd been having the same argument for years lol.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    I'm trying to explain same things the entire day, but people generally don't know how to think objectively. Fixations on a certain thing without the possibility to prove it wrong, even when there's evidence. But I guess that's the reason there always will be discussions.
    Because, from my experience anyway, the 4th definition is rarely if ever used. Similar to how a word like "fag" is never used to refer to bundle of sticks even though that is one of it's definitions.

    Words have out-dated meanings, that isn't uncommon. The whole point of this thread was the fact that the definitions that the manga use, are the first 3, and never has there been an instance where the 4th definition was used in the manga.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    Neji and Sasuke had a better potential and talent than Hianta and Obito. That's why they're called Geniuses because their talent is of higher degree than that of Hinata's. They haven't because there was obviously no reason to. Naruto and Kimimaro are the ones whose talents excel more than mediocrity. Which should be considered genius. He pretty much showed everything a leader does in the last chapter - leading an attack with rising morale of his army.
    Their potential and talent had nothing to do with their bloodline limits though, which was his argument, that simply possessing an unique ability makes one a genius. Hinata and Obito have the same abilities as Neji and Sasuke, but they're not considered geniuses because there's more to being a genius then just having a power.

    Tsunade is Hokage and member of both the Senju and Uzumaki clan, and has created one of the greatest medical techniques around. Yet not once in the series has she ever been referred to as a genius. Gaara has an amazing power, has actually lead people into battle along with getting them to work together, and is the Kazekage. Yet again, he has never been referred to as a genius. There are a dozen characters who can be said to excel the mediocrity, yet none of them are referred to as geniuses. Because "excelling the mediocrity" is not what makes a genius in the Narutoverse.

    Shikamaru, Sasuke, Neji, Lee, Minato, Kakashi, Itachi, and Shikaku are all declared geniuses. What do they have in common? Aside from most of them showing the ability to improve to a greater level in a short time, they all showed tactical intelligences to take advantage of their opponents. Naruto unfortunately hasn't. His improvement has always been based either on pure luck or the efforts of others, and he rarely shows any tactical smarts. He can be tricky and deceptive, but actually creating a plan to take advantage of an opponents abilities and weaknesses is not his modus operandi. His modus operandi is to keep attacking til he succeeds, to never give up. And while that makes him one of a kind and special, that's not how a genius is defined by the series. And jumping into an attack planned by another is not an act of leadership.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    There are alot of Genius-type ninja in the Naruto world. You can't argue against some of the most broken characters in this series at all. Minato gets alot of regard for being an incredible shinobi which he should, but I don't see as much recognition for Tobirama Senju. He was the one who created "Edo Tensei." Also had a teleportation jutsu before the 4th did and also stuck his finger to the ground to locate where the enemy was and how many of them were in the area. He was also hailed as the most broken water jutsu-user in the series...

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist
    MY DEFINITION OF GENIUS IS MUCH BETTER THAN YOURS

    WITH THE FEELING SO PURE

    MY DEFINITION OF GENIUS WALKS RIGHT THROUGH THE DOOR~
    Heh. System of a Down, nice. As a Naruto fan I expected you to listen to something a bit less... awesome.

    On topic though, if we're all agreeing that there's a difference between what eachother considers genius, why the hell are we stil arguing? I mean, it's like, everyone wants so bad to either amp up Naruto or tear him down that they forget their stance during the argument.

    I pretty much agree with Delbi and Rikudou King, but there's one point I need to make painfully clear: whoever out there said Naruto isn't an idiot is DELIBERATELY deluding themselves out of fandom. I don't like calling people fanboys but I'm NEVER letting you guys live this shit down:

    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/551 Naruto remembering Nagato's abilities...
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/551/2 Including the one that absorbs your ninjutsu Then, thanks to his genius you guys keep harping about, he deduces that the best way to defeat a ninja who absorbs ninjutsu, is to hit him with a ninjutsu.

    Surprisingly, Nagato absorbs the ninjutsu!

    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/551/3 Immediately after, Naruto remembers that he's a fucking idiot.

    So. I'm not getting into the genius debate with you guys for this very reason. We may not know what kind of genius he is, but we know what kinda genius he ain't.

    The good kind, I mean.

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    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Pfft, that's just Kishi dumbing him up. Would he seriously have made this kind of error? That was quite out of character with what we've seen from him. Naruto's ability to come up with plans and ways makes him the opposite of idiot. Him recognizing Rock Lee's bruised/beaten up hand after the wrapping came off and pointing out that Lee worked very hard was quite insightful for Naruto. He's also come up with good plans on the fly as well, whether against Zabuza or Kiba.

    I won't ever consider Naruto a genius, but I don't think he's dumb either, even if he did jump into Haku's ice mirrors without thinking of a good ambush....


    ....

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    Harasho 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Kaiten's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    I think more is being made of the genius label than the story intended. Genius referred to characters with some innate, extraordinary talent. Something they were born with. Naturals, quick studies. Sasuke was a natural, learning quickly. Neiji too. Naruto was not, he had to put in more time and study than his peers. That was part of why he saw Sasuke as a rival, something to aim for. That's also why Rock Lee saw Neiji as a rival. Genius was never meant to imply how powerful a ninja someone would become, only how easily they learned the craft. Naruto became a great ninja through hard work and perseverance, whereas it came easily to Sasuke the genius. That is why Sasuke was so intimated near the end of part one, when he first realized Naruto was catching up to him. Sasuke felt his genius would always give him an advantage, only to realize that Naruto was catching him anyway, and might even surpass him. From Sasuke's point of view, that was part of the reason he viewed Naruto as a rival.

    So no, Naruto was not a genius. That's an essential part of his character. But that does not mean he can not be a great ninja, only that he achieved with hard work what Sasuke achieved with genius.

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